Mythic + and why you shouldn't expect to get invited with low score

[Loosecannon]

I mean, there's a difference between a mythic raider clearing Argus/Aggramar at the moment and your run of the mill person trying to join who links mythic hounds or hasabel and then flames for not inviting them?

[Loosecannon]

Still, Mythic Argus doesnt mean much for m+ just because its difficult. If I link you Rank1 Gladi for M+ its just as useless. And him being a bitch about it right away cuz he did not get invited in 5seconds and flame doesnt help. :^)

I'd not want some shit geared alt in a 19+ push run either.

I mean,I see your point, but I would expect anyone with that level of raiding experience to know their class inside out and be able to talent/use utility as required. I dunno, maybe I'm being naive but I'd say that's more likely to be a reasonable assumption to make. I mean, the guy was asking for 3k+ so it's far away from my experience, perhaps your right in that context.

[Valrysha]

I don't expect to get into groups, but this system could be fixed by simply making the API track more than the top 100 for a dungeon per realm.

I have a low score. I do my +15s every week, usually in time, but sometimes we're not paying attention, it's not too hard at the end of the day.

Why is my score low then? Simply because I do them with Guildies, and not on Reset day. Unluckily for me, I play on one of the highest pop servers in the game, and this means the top 100 for every dungeon is clogged up within the first day or two. So, no score for me.

Ripperino.

[Shakari]

Hello people on MMO, I have been reading a lot about this lately, and thought i'd give my input.
As a player who run a lot with guild i have obtained a high enough mythic score, that i get accepted into most pugs that want to farm 15-18 keys. I see a lot of complaining about "why are people not taking me into their groups?? I know i am good enough even though i only have 1,3k m+ score and 5 failed +15's on my wowprogress"
If you look from the point of view, from a player that has high mythic+ score, who has been farming a lot to get his mythic+ score up, why should he pick you?

1st of all there is a million dps in queue to pick between, so if you are playing dps without high m+ score you must face that you're never going to get picked for high keys
2nd Why is it you think you are entitled to a spot in a group with people, far superior to you in terms of experience and the amount of work they have put into mythic+? Would you expect to get into master tier games in league, when you are only at silver MMR?
my 3rd and last point, gear is so easily available now, heroic + normal Antorus is a joke, so looking at your 950 ilvl doesn't say much about what we can expect from you. I just now pugged a EoA +15 and it was so painful to get through, even with everyone at 945+, we had a DK who died on every boss because he failed mechanics, tank was squishy as fuck, died multiple times on small thrash pulls, and the warrior was awfull as well.
We barely killed last boss and I think we 1 chested it. With a group of players with high mythic+ score, we will usually 3 chest a key like this.
So yes, in my opinion we do need some way to measure mythic + skill.

I suggest if you got low score, but think you are good at the game, go find a guild or some friends with your own key, and work your skill + experience up this way, that’s how most of us have done it.
I don't expect to get into groups with 2,6k players when I’m only at 2,3k.
Instead I will go play with players who also has around 2,3k and work my way up.
I apologize for bad gramma, but English is not my first language

You seem quite new to Mythic+ content as the 1st thing you need to learn about them is that mythic+ score means virtually nothing and is a poor guide to players actual skill, perhaps after running many mythic+ dungeons you will begin to realise this.


Also many people run specific mythic dungeons they actually find fun so there score is poor but they themselves are good players, this is another way why mythic+ score is broken.

End of the say Mythic+ score is as reliable as the old gearscore mod was, that being pretty useless generally.

[Lazel]

Still, Mythic Argus doesnt mean much for m+ just because its difficult. If I link you Rank1 Gladi for M+ its just as useless. And him being a bitch about it right away cuz he did not get invited in 5seconds and flame doesnt help. :^)

I'd not want some shit geared alt in a 19+ push run either.

In what world is 960 shit

Also in what world is +19 hard even with like 940 gear?

[Zensunni]

Anyone complaining about MS is either bad or lazy. Period. It's a metric that includes a detailed account of someone's accomplishments in m+.

All you babies that are mad people won't carry you in higher m+ need to git gud or shut up.

[Zigrifid]

I have a low score and still do my m+15 how does that make you feel elitists?

[Deleted]

I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but it's true. Every good raider does plenty of mythic plus because some of the best gear is from there (especially when you consider the state of WF/TF and their replay-ability, as well as how good the weekly caches are). If you consider yourself a good raider and don't do a lot of M+, you need to reconsider the definition of good raider.

Why are you talking if you clearly dont have any idea?
Im a good raider and i most of the time have insanely low score as i only do my weekly.
On the other hand when antorus progress started ive been running m+ like crazy for upgrades and take a wild guess - a week of m+ and not a single upgrade : )

Theres classes that need certain items e.g eye of command/relics and theres classes that have a hard time getting upgrades from m+ if they already have good gear
a decently geared boomkin for example had an insanely hard time getting upgrades out of m+ once antorus released due to being forced into 6 tierpieces and the fact that close to all m+ trinkets are complete shit - if you also had a good ring/neck already there was a high chance you have close to no possible upgrade out of regular m+ loot.

But of course you know that

[Deleted]

Let me first state that I do agree that asking high scores for anything under M+16 NONPUSH and WEEKLY is a bit "silly".

I just dont understand what is the problem here with you people. Ofcourse Mythic+ score (as was gearscore) is a pain in the ass for a casual, but it does not really help your case to call it irrelevant because "it can be inflated"...
It is as irrelevant as a gladiator title (Can be easily boosted, can easily play Cookiecutter comps )
It is as also as irrelevant as any midtier mythic achi - let's say M portalkeeper atm (Can easily be boosted or you can be carried by your raid or just bruteforce it with 300 tries)

Mythic raiders really need to get off the high horse and understand there is other aspects of the game. This whole thread is filled with "MUH MYTHIC RAIDING ACHIS" peeps who have no idea about the actual skillset needed for PUSHING(not just finishing) higher M+ keys at a REASONABLE SUCCESSRATE and getting into top-tables.
I dont care if you execute you 123 rotation perfectly and do 99 percentile DPS as long as you dont know about the bosses mechanics, skips, pullstrategies and yes there are tens or hundreds of different kinds. Higher M+ is unforgivable to say the least - one "mistake" can easily fuck up the whole run and it usually does at anything over 18-19+ where you usually 1 chest it anyway.

Not to mention all the different affixes... As you have anecdotal experiences with high WP scored people who suck.. I boost for tokens and usually form my group with anyone who is top-geared and usually have atleast 1-2 mythic raiders who are really interested in spamming 15+ for obvious reasons. I can also give random examples and call those "relevant" for everyone as you do.

Just this week: a raider(Tank DH) with M Varimathras. Does not know how bolstering works(Yay for green slime with 15 stacks oneshotting everybody) and does not know how to properly skip the start of arcway. Followed by running into the god damn melee with mana explosion on the last boss. We actually 1 chested a god damn +16 which is a fucking shame.
Just this week: a raider with M hasabel (Druid tank). Has 0 clue how grievous works and just keeps running from the healer and gives 0 fucks about me being a)oom b)being a disc priest. Ends up pulling the second boss in BRH +18 with everybody being stacked with grievous and me on 20% mana... that is a long corpserun. 0 chests because he also fails on god damn boulders.

AND this list goes on. Every week I have atleast one bad experience like that. And I also have those bad experiences with high scored people just the same.

There is a reason M+ is atleast trying to become a e-sport and raiding has failed at that spectaculary many times. It is faster, it has way more personal skill than raiding and it is unforgivable and it has way more different ways to execute things.
Raiding on the otherhand is preparation, leadership, tactics,minmaxing and it is fucking hard. But stop calling yourself skilled and being elitist for moving out with a debuff every minute because your raidleader tells you to and pressing 123 in a perfect fashion.


TLDR; Point of this very shittily written rant is, that all scores and achievements can be boosted, inflated, lied - score is a "guideline" not a "rule", but we need guidelines or we have nothing to guide us. Mythic+ on higher levels than weekly 15 without timelimit is a whole different skillset/game and there is no point calling it easier than being a 1 pawn out of 20 in a mythic raiding environment.

....
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And just that I can't mention that enough. I am currently emotional towards raiders in this rant because they are acting like little kids in this thread, no other reason. We are all equally shit and equally good. Just different skillsets.

[Volitar]

Eh my experience with pug M+ has been awful so I don't blame people for trying to filter out retards but the system is so bad. Have to do every shitty dungeon to get a decent score even the ones that people always skip on higher keys, and you have to be ranked for it to even register.

If you don't have a guild or a group of friends I would advise to start looking for some because its cancer out there.

[skitzin]

My biggest issue with the way Raider.io works is not in the score itself but two slightly more complicated areas.

1. I think creators and users of the mythic+ score cannot feign ignorance about the nature of players and human behaviour to take yet another tool and put far too much faith in it.

We have seen this with Gearscore, we have seen it with SimC where it becomes the only bar which people judged DPS eligibility instead of understanding and using as it another tool to help. To pretend that this woundn't happen is plain silly since we have seen it before and have a basic understanding how people used similar systems in the past.

2. And, this is more a point towards the core systems of Raider.io, the fact that their method for generating scores is severely flawed. Part of this is due to the way Blizzard's API works but still a point against the way the run this.

In essence, without being in a position to complete 15+ for each dungeon or being able to complete the dungeon such that you are in your server's top 100 new, casual or returning players are at a severe disadvantage. To me this goes against the very concept of an MMO since it allows people to disqualify others with no recourse and no opportunity to improve their own abilities and scores. Highly populated servers might have easily 100+ teams running 17-20+ groups - anybody who completes a +15 even if they did everything right can be punished since it will not help their score.

[Lazel]

When I checked, your DH had 948 @ wowprogress.

Also why would I do the dungeon with 940 gear when I can get People with 960 gear.

You are completely missing the point. Point is , people were doing +24s with Tomb gear that is like 21-22 now.

Tomb gear. 20 ilvls less. Without new 4 sets. Without 1k legendaries. Old 4 set. Without crucible and 3 extra relics. 5 months ago. You know ?

Also gear that I logout with, xd or what. I'll make sure I'll logout with most ilvl so I can look good on wowprogress =PP

[ID811717]

In essence, without being in a position to complete 15+ for each dungeon or being able to complete the dungeon such that you are in your server's top 100 new, casual or returning players are at a severe disadvantage. To me this goes against the very concept of an MMO since it allows people to disqualify others with no recourse and no opportunity to improve their own abilities and scores. Highly populated servers might have easily 100+ teams running 17-20+ groups - anybody who completes a +15 even if they did everything right can be punished since it will not help their score.

I went back and counted now: in one of the M+ "seasons" I did nearly 40 runs below +15 before I got my first invite into +15 (that was mid-expansion, with +15 needed for the weekly chest). And those are just the runs that were recorded by wowprogress (I was playing on one of the heavily populated realms). That was before mythic+ scores were popular (although some people used them as early as in January, I remember I asked some party leader what "1600ms" meant, and never got a response).

I did the "farm lower keys because everyone keeps rejecting you from +15" exercise in at least two different seasons. What helped me a lot was (1) make friends in M+ runs, and (2) do well in lower keys and hope to be invited in follow-up runs all the way up to +15.

At the end of the day:
1. With or without M+ score, getting invites into +15 keys was always really hard if you lack experience in M+.
2. I think that most players who are pushing high keys now - started from scratch at some point in the expansion and built their score up, in a slow, painful way.
3. Even if you play on a highly populated realm, if you actually enjoy doing M+, just spam the keys and a lot of your runs will inevitably appear on other realm leaderboards (by randomly joining pugs that have players from such realms).
4. And yes -- ultimately -- the M+ score is a bad indicator people people who are merely interested in weekly chests. I think raider.io admins did a good job adding more useful information to the addon that helps people that are only interested in weekly +15 runs. (The number of completed "+15 or higher runs in time" is fetched from armory, and does not depend on leaderboards).

[klaps_05]

You are completely missing the point. Point is , people were doing +24s with Tomb gear that is like 21-22 now.

Tomb gear. 20 ilvls less. Without new 4 sets. Without 1k legendaries. Old 4 set. Without crucible and 3 extra relics. 5 months ago. You know ?

Also gear that I logout with, xd or what. I'll make sure I'll logout with most ilvl so I can look good on wowprogress =PP

You are completely missing supply and demand. Yes, your 940-something is perfectly enough, but there are many many people who are 950-960+ and for m+ a 20ilevel worth of extra HP, especially for DPS, makes healers life 100x easier.

[Lazel]

You are completely missing supply and demand. Yes, your 940-something is perfectly enough, but there are many many people who are 950-960+ and for m+ a 20ilevel worth of extra HP, especially for DPS, makes healers life 100x easier.

Havoc doesn't need extra hp to survive when you have passive magic DR & 100% leech : )

But sure , taking your advice, I will make sure to use my pvp item level gear in mythic + because that's what gives me the most hp! 500k more hp is bigger than 1.5m more dps.

[HuxNeva]

But as of now you can really invite anyone whose ilvl is high enough and you should be fine.

Aha. Hah. Whohahahaha! Sorry. Ha! Haha!

Seriously.
I mean, you're just running like 2 dungeons. Fine, no problem, and when I'm listing an Arcway +15 and I see you're Arcway +18, then np, I'm not even looking at your M+ 300 score. If I was running a CoS +15, and I see you've never even ran a CoS over +5, then well, that would be an issue. A tool is just a tool. It just gives you some info. You still have to know how to interpret what it tells you.

[Enentari]

and for m+ a 20ilevel worth of extra HP, especially for DPS, makes healers life 100x easier.

There is pretty much nothing to really heal in a 15...

20 ilv worth of HP won't change my life as a healer, really. Pple with a brain will. And that's something MM+ score doesn"t show at all^^

[PhillieB]

The problem really lies imho in the breakdown of community after vanilla and BC in wrath where systems such as gearscore started to get introduced to judge players skill becuase you were playing (if you were pugging) with people/guilds you didn't know. Is it a good system? No it's obviously flawed for the numerous reason already mentioned in the thread.

Personally it don't really care, i just do AoE becuase it's the one I find the least annoying for some reason and I do my +10 or +15 every week. It's probably a lot easier to find a group since i'm a healer and I have quite a high ilevel but I rarely find it takes me more than 30 mins to find a group and that's alright since i'm not bringing my own key and only looking for a specific instance.

[Matthias]

Sounds like your checking the actual Raider IO site, aka vetting the player, which is totally fine to me. I'm more speaking of the mod that just slaps a score onto you, and the algorithmn takes into account how many of the dungeons you actually done. There are a few I personally avoid thus my score is low. If I request for an invite to a dungeon and you see I've never done it at a high level, then you've done your research and have all the reason to decline.

Only other issue I have with that is that it goes by each patch Season, there are some dungeons I haven't done this season yet for example, thus will have no points on Raider Io. Meh.

[Emancptr]

Only other issue I have with that is that it goes by each patch Season, there are some dungeons I haven't done this season yet for example, thus will have no points on Raider Io. Meh.

Addon shows highest score (any season), highest dungeon completed (any season), highest dungeon completed for current dungeon (any season), and Main's Score (if it's higher than current character's score).

Most people complaining about the addon haven't used/updated the addon in weeks and have no idea what the current state of the addon is.