"go play retail then" is getting old

[hulkgor]

So, you want Vanilla to avoid updated mail system and bug fixes?

Give me break. This is exactly the idiotic argument, people who want to discuss WoW classic and what it should be, has to went through before making some point.

You want A. Joe feels entitled for B. Then Bob wants C.

If Blizzard adds your suggestion, it will also have to add other peoples, that's the whole problem. So they either NOT add those things, or they risk ruining the whole thing.

That's not very hard to understand.

You, and every other dude joining the bandwagon, each has "their" desired QOLs. You draw the line at LFD\LFR, maybe Bob doesn't and wants that but doesn't want flying, but Joe wants Flying, but doesn't want transmog.

Then what?

Blizzard should just steer clear of all that, seriously.

And once more. BUGS AREN'T A FEATURE, holy fuck, how can you dudes keep making that argument. Bugs get fixed, be it vanilla or fucking Legion.

[alturic]

So, you want Vanilla to avoid updated mail system and bug fixes?

Give me break. This is exactly the idiotic argument, people who want to discuss WoW classic and what it should be, has to went through before making some point.

In all seriousness, why do you (unless of course, you're just commenting in threads because you're bored) want to play classic?

[ManiaCCC]

You want A. Joe feels entitled for B. Then Bob wants C.

If Blizzard adds your suggestion, it will also have to add other peoples, that's the whole problem. So they either NOT add those things, or they risk ruining the whole thing.

That's not very hard to understand.

You, and every other dude joining the bandwagon, each has "their" desired QOLs. You draw the line at LFD\LFR, maybe Bob doesn't and wants that but doesn't want flying, but Joe wants Flying, but doesn't want transmog.

Then what?

Blizzard should just steer clear of all that, seriously.

And once more. BUGS AREN'T A FIXTURE, holy fuck, how can you dudes keep making that argument. Bugs get fixed, be it vanilla or fucking Legion.

You are overblowing everything. That's the problem. You have no argument aside some BS what are you throwing around.

Look, as you said, I want something, Joe may want something else, Lucy want something different. That's why there should be discussion. But because people, like you, there can't be. You are selfish to the point, you don't even care what others want and why.

You want it your way and only your way. So now I am asking you. How would reworked mail system ruin your Vanilla experience on Classic? Can you tell me?

Funny thing is, that most these purist like you are throwing private servers as arguments, that most people playing Vanilla private servers and these are the people, who will be blood and muscle of new Classic servers. Yet, not even single private server was blizzlike, not even close. Most of the time, because it is hard to emulate blizzlike environment, but many times, because they felt these changes will make games better..even Nost server. So it seems that you guys are very capable to handle some changes, so don't act as idiotic as you are acting, because we may actually believe, you are just bunch of 30 years old kids whining around the internet over any change for no good reason.

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In all seriousness, why do you (unless of course, you're just commenting in threads because you're bored) want to play classic?

Well, I don't like current direction of WoW. I think they took too much from the core experience I remember playing WoW back in days. That's why.

I think, it is pretty much same for everyone, who want play on Classic servers.

[hulkgor]

so don't act as idiotic as you are acting, because we may actually believe, you are just bunch of 30 years old kids whining around the internet over any change.

Because you i don't agree with you and have a different opinion? Got it. Take care buddy.

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Well, I don't like current direction of WoW. I think they took too much from the core experience I remember playing WoW back in days. That's why.

Yet, here you are, suggesting the features that led WoW down this slope, losing all its identify along the way.

That's actually funny. Ironic even.

[Aqua]

No, this is asinine logic. Using you're analogy it would be more akin to you calling people who like eating ice cream with their hands stupid because you like a bowl.

The analogy is DEAD ON, it's not asinine, it's the naked truth. Personally I like eating my ice cream in ways that don't involve sticky hands either. And to the people who do, I question their ability to denote what is healthy for themselves. You want to taste the icecream right? That's the point of the whole ordeal, why would you make it like that for yourself. Nothing about the icecream is changing save for it being easier and less messy to consume!

9/10 cases if the developers do it right, I like to play a remaster of my old favourites. I see no reason Vanilla should be an outlier of that trend. I like vanilla, I do really like it, however I know there are ways it can be polished to be superior, not in extremes, but minor ways in which the game was brutishly archaic. No quests need changing, no designs, just... Little things here and there, maybe allowing mounts and armor earned in classic to activate achieve/acquired items on live, that sort of thing, non invasive... Graphical polish is something I have no trouble in encouraging either if they want to tackle an interesting challenge, no reason to not allow a toggle on/off for that so people who really want to go back to 2005 can.

Going back to more ice cream analogies, I don't want them to add sprinkles or fudge sauce to it, but a bowl? I'm down with that, put it in a freakin bowl.

[ManiaCCC]

Because you i don't agree with you and have a different opinion?

not because you disagree, but I lost hope you will ever understand.

Yet, here you are, suggesting the features that led WoW down this slope, losing all its identify along the way.

That's actually funny. Ironic even.

Really? Updated graphics and bug fixes caused downfall of WoW? You guys are full of surprises.

[evogsr]

I am also interested to know why you think it would defeat the point of Classic servers. And while I have my own reservation about whole X-mog, (and I don't want see in classic), why you think x-mog for example is bad?

As other people have brought up, it does have a detriment to PvP. It facilitates the need to use a UI frame addon to determine a targets hp (since all we have with the default BlizzUI is target hp % if toggled on), unnecessarily because it can no longer be seen at a glance what level of gear the target actually has equipped. The effects this carries over as the server ages weighs more, doubly so in battlegrounds. It can no longer be determined if that mage you're getting ready jump on is only in some netherwind set with a few high stam accessories or if he's in GM/HWL gear. It completely screws with the dynamic of priority target calling - because again, at a glance you no longer have a sound idea about what that player is wearing, forcing you to use an addon to make that determination but not until you actually target them first - all the while still not being as accurate as actually knowing what armor/weapon they have equipped. When transmog made it to the game, it was Season 11, and by that point in time API/LUA had been advanced enough to tell players this information - right from a frame or tooltip, as to ilvl, spec, associated pvp stats (resilience, later pvp power) which completely negated the need to visually see what another player was wearing. Couple this with "enemy team" a raid frame addon telling you this data for every single person on the enemy team. Simply put, I don't want anything like that making its way in Classic (likely wouldn't since older API/LUA can't handle those data requests). Addons like those were in large part created because of the effect transmog had on that portion of the game.

As I said earlier, transmog also gives an ingame justification- to the point of being an incentive of allowing players to engage in what was unsavory behavior with regards to taking loot purely for cosmetic reasons that was otherwise not good for them. This happened in Vanilla enough as it was, but it didn't have an ingame system propping it up. Transmog will compound that problem in any amount. Imagine all of those non-raider plebs having a holy pally outroll them in a dungeon because he wants Valor shoulders for a mog piece but the warrior tanking the dungeon loses out on an item that would otherwise help him progress in some way. I can already hear their sobbing now.

The routine argument from proponents of transmog always push aside raiding gear and they hyperfocus on "not looking like a clown - since the majority don't raid" but on the same token worry about "Best in Slot". Dailystruggle.jpg, which one is it guys? So with that in mind... There's roughly 10 unique pieces, in any armor slot, per armor type of BoE/BoP greens, and about half that with BoE/BoP Blues. A cloth, leather, or plate wearer can't even gear 1/3rd of their character with BoE epics/a weapon included. All of these items are outside the raid environment of course. In the end, with access to what is outside of raids, even if players had transmog, they'd still end up looking like a clown. Jump on live and take a look at what kinds of things you can transmog that are just from Vanilla, outside of raiding, and present something that isn't any different piece-meal gear that a player would be wearing anyway. Unique loot didn't drop like candy, like it does now. There wasn't much uniqueness to even be had, raiding included.

Thus... leading to the implementation of a system that ends up accomplishing absolutely nothing it does in Live (it does nothing to address the problems of entitlement people have that keep raising it) and being something only the very vocal minority want, but leaving unintended consequences to be patched up or changes implemented because its a system that doesn't have a place in Vanilla. It didn't take Blizzard 7 years to realize transmog should be a thing in their game, transmog didn't make its way into WoW until WoW had other changes put in place to accommodate it. It wouldn't have worked in Wrath either. Hence why Cataclysm had notable loot system changes in place before 4.3.

Just some of my reasoning.

[ManiaCCC]

Really solid and deep explanation

I agree with you buddy 100%. I am also not big fan of transmog for same reason but I understand, why many people believe, it is very important for the game.

[DrStiglit]

The analogy is DEAD ON, it's not asinine, it's the naked truth. Personally I like eating my ice cream in ways that don't involve sticky hands either. And to the people who do, I question their ability to denote what is healthy for themselves. You want to taste the icecream right? That's the point of the whole ordeal, why would you make it like that for yourself. Nothing about the icecream is changing save for it being easier and less messy to consume!

9/10 cases if the developers do it right, I like to play a remaster of my old favourites. I see no reason Vanilla should be an outlier of that trend. I like vanilla, I do really like it, however I know there are ways it can be polished to be superior, not in extremes, but minor ways in which the game was brutishly archaic. No quests need changing, no designs, just... Little things here and there, maybe allowing mounts and armor earned in classic to activate achieve/acquired items on live, that sort of thing, non invasive... Graphical polish is something I have no trouble in encouraging either if they want to tackle an interesting challenge, no reason to not allow a toggle on/off for that so people who really want to go back to 2005 can.

Going back to more ice cream analogies, I don't want them to add sprinkles or fudge sauce to it, but a bowl? I'm down with that, put it in a freakin bowl.

The analogy was great, the logic of assuming anyone who wants to eat ice cream with their hands doesn’t know what they like is asinine. I get everyone wants something different. I’m also alright with the bowl, but the people who have wanted vanilla servers for years don’t even want the spoon.

I’m just saying most of us haven’t been asking for these servers so it’s not our place to try and force bowls and spoons on the people who want to eat it like they used to..

[Deleted]

The amount of players who wish to play Classic+ or Vanilla remastered are indeed the unknown figure. You and they are the minority.

You don't know that since it is an unknown figure....
And I really doubt the purists are the majority. They are the most noisy and aggresive for sure, but just look at this forum, would be dead without threads about changes....

And once again you assume that because this PServer was big, classic must be like it, and everybody playing it was a purist. Its just wrong and stated many time in this thread. There is a lot of players playing PServers because there is nowhere else to play vanilla, but would be happy using the blizzard feature instead of questie or any other addon for the same results. People tend to play on the most popular servers because they dont want ghost towns, no matter if they are ok or not with changes for the official thing, and those server got popular to begin with because they works better than other shitholes with crash and bugs every hour or two. You just ignore this and think "400k sig= 400k purists". That's too easy..... the "legacy movement" is divided about it as much as the bandwagon that came after the announcement.

Also, once again, purists won't stay away from classic just because a few things changed. They'll bitch for sure, but they'll play classic anyway.
I'll play classic, even if no change. I'll bitch for sure, for xmog lol, but I'll still play.

So it's not blizzard "attempt to reach an unknown group of players while completely cutting the large & known group of players out", it's trying to retain some players from the unknown group, when everybody know the diehard junkies will play for the next 10y anyway... they'll cut nothing out as long as they don't add lvl20 mounts, flying mounts, catchup mechanics, dual spec, lfr and big changes like that.
A toggle for updated graphics "Completely cutting the large & known group of players out"? I can't believe people are stupid enough to ragequit over that... toggle it off, bitch for a minute, and then forget about it and play the game.

[Sorcath]

You just assume it is only millenials/children that are asking for a few QoL changes and don't stop to consider that it could be some older Vanilla players that would like to see a few QoL changes. You do realize even some of the most hardcore Vanilla fans are not all in agreement on what Vanilla is, what it should have and what they expect from Blizz.

Thats a strawman if Ive ever seen one. Vanilla rift is caused by which patch to drop, while retail rift with vanilla players is cause by what QoL they want pushed into the content.

Thankfully, Blizzard already stated vanilla is vanilla, so your, and the rest of the retailers, arguments are moot. Ive stated this before, in this thread even: This experience isnt for you. Its not even for me. Its 100% about the half a million subs that play on private servers daily. Period. End of discussion.

The only thing left to discuss about this whole arrangmet is will they drop 1.12 or 1.2 .

Enjoy retail though, pal. I will and I'll enjoy classic

[evogsr]

You don't know that since it is an unknown figure....
And I really doubt the purists are the majority. They are the most noisy and aggresive for sure, but just look at this forum, would be dead without threads about changes....

And once again you assume that because this PServer was big, classic must be like it, and everybody playing it was a purist. Its just wrong and stated many time in this thread. There is a lot of players playing PServers because there is nowhere else to play vanilla, but would be happy using the blizzard feature instead of questie or any other addon for the same results. People tend to play on the most popular servers because they dont want ghost towns, no matter if they are ok or not with changes for the official thing, and those server got popular to begin with because they works better than other shitholes with crash and bugs every hour or two. You just ignore this and think "400k sig= 400k purists". That's too easy..... the "legacy movement" is divided about it as much as the bandwagon that came after the announcement.

Also, once again, purists won't stay away from classic just because a few things changed. They'll bitch for sure, but they'll play classic anyway.
I'll play classic, even if no change. I'll bitch for sure, for xmog lol, but I'll still play.

So it's not blizzard "attempt to reach an unknown group of players while completely cutting the large & known group of players out", it's trying to retain some players from the unknown group, when everybody know the diehard junkies will play for the next 10y anyway... they'll cut nothing out as long as they don't add lvl20 mounts, flying mounts, catchup mechanics, dual spec, lfr and big changes like that.
A toggle for updated graphics "Completely cutting the large & known group of players out"? I can't believe people are stupid enough to ragequit over that...

See, here's the thing. A general deduction would be, yes, I'm positive there were some players who played on Nost and would have been happy with certain aspects that weren't originally in Vanilla - but this is where things deviate. You don't have a headcount of those people. I don't have a headcount of those people. No one does. However, based on the history of private servers, Nost in focus, it's a sure bet to assume that most of those players were looking for an authentic Vanilla experience and not something else (or they would have gone to anyone of the dozens of private servers that weren't as close to 1:1 as Nost was). Don't be dishonest about it either, you don't have any data to support which of the several dozen private servers lacked a community or were down for bugs every other hour. If anyone is doing some heavy assuming here, about anything, it's you.

It wouldn't be rage quitting if enough of us didn't play to begin with. Again, from a business decision standpoint, Blizzard has a pretty good grasp at who they want to appease with Classic. This forum isn't indicative of the unknown number when a decent portion of the threads here opening up a discussion for the 20th time about transmog or multimob loot are started by <50 post count newly registered accounts that wind up with a banned avatar image days later. Of course, the unknown amount of players who want Classic+ or Vanilla Remastered may be indeed large but insofar, there's nothing firm to suggest or substantiate that as opposed to the indicator of why Classic is taking place at all, in the first place.

[Forogil]

Thats a strawman if Ive ever seen one. Vanilla rift is caused by which patch to drop, while retail rift with vanilla players is cause by what QoL they want pushed into the content.

Thankfully, Blizzard already stated vanilla is vanilla, so your, and the rest of the retailers, arguments are moot. Ive stated this before, in this thread even: This experience isnt for you. Its not even for me. Its 100% about the half a million subs that play on private servers daily.

1. Blizzard didn't state that - some heard that since they heard what they wanted to hear.
Blizzard simply don't know exactly what they will release - so it might be no QoL-changes, or more QoL-changes.

2. I very much doubt that half a million "subs" play on private servers, especially "daily."

Or in other words you are wrong:

Period. End of discussion.

[Deleted]

Period. End of discussion.

OK pal! See ya in another forum then, since the discussion will not end here anytime soon

Maybe you'll be back for the next thread about change, who knows!

[ManiaCCC]

Of course, the unknown amount of players who want Classic+ or Vanilla Remastered may be indeed large but insofar, there's nothing firm to suggest or substantiate that as opposed to the indicator of why Classic is taking place at all, in the first place.

Isn't there? I think there is overwhelming evidence, that at least between active community members on the forums, there is quite big group, who are proposing different changes for Classic.

Also, they said, there will be discussion later about some design decisions, they clearly said, they don't have anything set in the stone, they even encouraged people to take part in one specific poll (was also floating somewhere around this forum) and they are in the "gathering all sort of feedback" phase. From business perspective, it will be in the end, about people and what they really want from Classic (hopefully). So don't assume anything. You have no idea about their business plan nor anyone else on this forum.

[Kyanion]

Thats a strawman if Ive ever seen one. Vanilla rift is caused by which patch to drop, while retail rift with vanilla players is cause by what QoL they want pushed into the content.

Thankfully, Blizzard already stated vanilla is vanilla, so your, and the rest of the retailers, arguments are moot. Ive stated this before, in this thread even: This experience isnt for you. Its not even for me. Its 100% about the half a million subs that play on private servers daily. Period. End of discussion.

The only thing left to discuss about this whole arrangmet is will they drop 1.12 or 1.2 .

Enjoy retail though, pal. I will and I'll enjoy classic

Except it isn't a "Period. End of discussion." or else these forums would be pointless. You REALLY need to go back and listen to what Blizz has said about taking feedback and asking for ideas.

Also, no. The people that are diehard for Vanilla are NOT just debating which patch to drop, they are very much split over many issues and you are being ignorant if you state otherwise.

[Forogil]

This forum isn't indicative of the unknown number when a decent portion of the threads here opening up a discussion for the 20th time about transmog or multimob loot are started by <50 post count newly registered accounts that wind up with a banned avatar image days later.

Don't assume too much based on that:

Other banned posters have started threads saying that it should be 100% Vanilla ("Thread: Keep It Original"), or no changes 'Thread: Retailers: "Classic communities dont know what they want."

[evogsr]

Isn't there? I think there is overwhelming evidence, that at least between active community members on the forums, there is quite big group, who are proposing different changes for Classic.

Also, they said, there will be discussion later about some design decisions, they clearly said, they don't have anything set in the stone, they even encouraged people to take part in one specific poll (was also floating somewhere around this forum) and they are in the "gathering all sort of feedback" phase. From business perspective, it will be in the end, about people and what they really want from Classic (hopefully). So don't assume anything. You have no idea about their business plan nor anyone else on this forum.

No doubt you've seen the poll yeah? From the first few hours of it posting up until the poll was closed nothing had substantially changed. Every single one of the questions posed had a very healthy or otherwise overwhelming agreement on what "no change" other than some content that was in Vanilla being released sooner than it was originally or future content at a later date.

I'm not going to say they'll base their entire design philosophy around that poll. It'd be foolish to do so in any instance, but would you consider for a moment that they (Blizzard) already had a pretty good idea of how their poll would and did turn out? And that maybe the real reason they even put a poll out there in the first place was nothing short of an exercise in PR to let a portion of players feel as if they had a voice? I'm not saying it was a deep diabolical scheme. Companies do this stuff all of the time, it's a major headache not to at least openly consult even when you know the outcome ahead of time. It's better to give players a sense of feeling like their opinion is being weighed (whether or not it actually is), than it would have been for them to not put a poll up - already knowing how results would come in.

[davesurfer]

Because you i don't agree with you and have a different opinion? Got it. Take care buddy.

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Yet, here you are, suggesting the features that led WoW down this slope, losing all its identify along the way.

That's actually funny. Ironic even.

The mail system was the downfall of WoW?

[ManiaCCC]

No doubt you've seen the poll yeah? From the first few hours of it posting up until the poll was closed nothing had substantially changed. Every single one of the questions posed had a very healthy or otherwise overwhelming agreement on what "no change" other than some content that was in Vanilla being released sooner than it was originally.

Actually yea, I read that poll and it reflected what I want from classic quite well. But people were for all sort of changes..from modern graphics, flight path changes to extreme "expand Classic WoW" stuff. Even things like dual spec and lowering respec cost had over 40% support. Almost 50% of people were for class balance changes.

If anything, that poll showed, even classic community is fragmented and it seems that most people actually DON'T want pure vanilla wow. It seems that purist are in fact, in minority.