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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by jaimelannister View Post
    Right. The “unlimited movement” aspect would be something to hang our hats on if it ever actually came into play to put us at the top of a single fight’s meters, but it never does.
    And it never can, really. Because as others have said, requiring constant movement would make all other ranged specs unplayable. And Blizzard work hard to avoid fights that require stacking to that degree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raicky View Post
    Lets stop throwing words like "has ever said this" just because you're lazy to search, yeah ?

    https://youtu.be/A7NwaaincK4?t=14m45s
    Feel free to link to the part of that vid where he says that mobility is balanced with DPS loss.

    You call me lazy but you're too lazy to even read the discussion without replying with irrelevant shit.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Feel free to link to the part of that vid where he says that mobility is balanced with DPS loss.

    You call me lazy but you're too lazy to even read the discussion without replying with irrelevant shit.
    The entire discussion in the part I linked is related to caster mobility. Go back a few minutes in that video and you'll see the question is "Why is it okay for hunters to have full mobility and not for other classes?". The answer to that is that their dps is balanced around having full mobility, that having a pet is a detriment and that they have lesser cooldowns than other classes (i.e. 6.0 survival which had NO cooldowns)
    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    Stop equating casual to bad, they're two different things.
    Casual refers to time/effort spent.
    Bad refers to skill.
    Your English isn't casual, it's bad.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Raicky View Post
    The entire discussion in the part I linked is related to caster mobility. Go back a few minutes in that video and you'll see the question is "Why is it okay for hunters to have full mobility and not for other classes?". The answer to that is that their dps is balanced around having full mobility, that having a pet is a detriment and that they have lesser cooldowns than other classes (i.e. 6.0 survival which had NO cooldowns)
    And yet, still nothing that says (as you claimed) that hunters get lower DPS because of their mobility. That has never been the case before, and it's not the case now (BM single target is not that bad, it's just that BM's AOE is currently dogshit and Blizzard can't really fix it without giving us new spells which won't happen this late in an expansion.)

    Warlocks were fully mobile in MOP and nobody saw fit to make them do less DPS as a result. Hunters were fully mobile in WoD and their DPS was fine too.

    It's simply a lie that BM is designed to do less DPS because of their mobility. We were not doing low DPS in Nighthold and we were just as mobile then. The issue is that we don't scale as well as other classes which is just a balancing mistake because blizzard still hasn't worked out that pet damage scaling with AP just can't keep up with the way other classes scale.

    It's not deliberate, nor is it always the case that BM damage is low. Last expansion BM was one of the top specs for AOE fights (it was the go to spec for AOE raid bosses like Tectus, Operator Thogar and Beastlord Darmac, and was the preferred spec for challenge modes), and was fine for the first 2 raid tiers of this expansion, but now it's one of the worst.

    This sort of thing is not deliberate whatsoever, the top AOE specs seem to change wildly from patch to patch because apparently very little thought still seems to go into it, despite M+ now being a major part of the game.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2017-12-26 at 11:04 AM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    And yet, still nothing that says (as you claimed) that hunters get lower DPS because of their mobility.
    WUT

    They are giving a class intentional detriments like shitty pets and no cooldowns because they want you do to lesser damage than other classes. What other reason would have to intentionally cockblock your dps ?

    Hunter dps in WOD was most definitely NOT fine. If you look at pure single target cases, SV was doing well in Highmaul and BRF because of Serpent Sting double dipping on Arcane Shot multistrikes. This got fixed in HfC and SV was did less dps than some tank specs. BM was dogshit in Highmaul and only did well in BRF because of the RNG lottery tier set and then went back to being garbage in HfC. Marks was the only spec that was consistently decent throughtout WOD and when it did get full mobility in HfC, its ST was well below other classes.

    And the reason we did really well in NH was because of that one single trait, (Thunderlash i think) which got nerfed 2 weeks(?) later.

    Again, BM in BRF had the stupidly OP tier set.KC had a 25% chance to reset cooldown on BW.

    If you go back to MoP, then I'd agree with you that BM was fully mobile and was actually the best hunter spec in SoO and was very close to the top in ST fights. This has simply not been the case after WoD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    Stop equating casual to bad, they're two different things.
    Casual refers to time/effort spent.
    Bad refers to skill.
    Your English isn't casual, it's bad.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Raicky View Post
    WUT

    They are giving a class intentional detriments like shitty pets and no cooldowns because they want you do to lesser damage than other classes. What other reason would have to intentionally cockblock your dps ?

    Hunter dps in WOD was most definitely NOT fine. If you look at pure single target cases, SV was doing well in Highmaul and BRF because of Serpent Sting double dipping on Arcane Shot multistrikes. This got fixed in HfC and SV was did less dps than some tank specs. BM was dogshit in Highmaul and only did well in BRF because of the RNG lottery tier set and then went back to being garbage in HfC. Marks was the only spec that was consistently decent throughtout WOD and when it did get full mobility in HfC, its ST was well below other classes.

    And the reason we did really well in NH was because of that one single trait, (Thunderlash i think) which got nerfed 2 weeks(?) later.

    Again, BM in BRF had the stupidly OP tier set.KC had a 25% chance to reset cooldown on BW.

    If you go back to MoP, then I'd agree with you that BM was fully mobile and was actually the best hunter spec in SoO and was very close to the top in ST fights. This has simply not been the case after WoD.
    So you've changed your story from "they deliberately make hunters bad at DPS because of mobility" to "hunters are sometimes good and sometimes not good depending on how OP the tier sets are". I agree with the 2nd one. But the same is true for every other class.

    Hunters have never been punished for mobility or complexity and nor has any other class. The waxing and waning of the relative strength of specs and classes is pretty much entirely due to the difficulty of balancing class abilities and tier sets while still making each class unique.

    Every spec in the game has had periods where they are OP and periods where they are rubbish. Hunters are no different and nothing you've said here shows any evidence otherwise.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Raicky View Post
    WUT

    They are giving a class intentional detriments like shitty pets and no cooldowns because they want you do to lesser damage than other classes. What other reason would have to intentionally cockblock your dps ?
    I mean, I don't want to make a competition, but demonology warlocks have a long ass cast time to summon their demons followed by a long ass cast time to empower them followed by a long ass cast time to build up resource for the next long ass cast time for summoning demons, AND they can be CCd/killed and must move to their targets resulting in a DPS loss like hunters. I agree it would be nice for hunters to have better mobility than aspect of the cheetah in its current form because it is a pain in the ass to constantly struggle to keep up with dungeon groups, but the fact that most of their stuff is instant quite makes up for it imo as far as dps goes where it matters.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by zlygork View Post
    I mean, I don't want to make a competition, but demonology warlocks have a long ass cast time to summon their demons followed by a long ass cast time to empower them followed by a long ass cast time to build up resource for the next long ass cast time for summoning demons, AND they can be CCd/killed and must move to their targets resulting in a DPS loss like hunters. I agree it would be nice for hunters to have better mobility than aspect of the cheetah in its current form because it is a pain in the ass to constantly struggle to keep up with dungeon groups, but the fact that most of their stuff is instant quite makes up for it imo as far as dps goes where it matters.

    Trailblazer is actually quite good for that, rarely need the speed boost from Posthaste.

    You can jump turn and do a 180 then disengage to get a good speed boost from posthaste on a short cooldown, it's a lot of work just to run a bit faster though.

  8. #128
    BM weapon scaling is the problem and always has been.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    So you've changed your story from "they deliberately make hunters bad at DPS because of mobility" to "hunters are sometimes good and sometimes not good depending on how OP the tier sets are". I agree with the 2nd one. But the same is true for every other class.

    Hunters have never been punished for mobility or complexity and nor has any other class. The waxing and waning of the relative strength of specs and classes is pretty much entirely due to the difficulty of balancing class abilities and tier sets while still making each class unique.

    Every spec in the game has had periods where they are OP and periods where they are rubbish. Hunters are no different and nothing you've said here shows any evidence otherwise.
    LOL hunters are the only ones who get punished for being decent. And yes I said DECENT not OP. BM hunters were good during 7.2 and Blizzard saw it and nerfed them hard. Now hunters are the worst performing class in both PvE and PvP. Other classes don't get treated like dirt but apparently it's okay to be stuck in a permanent state of lackluster for 2 expansions in a row now just because you are a hunter.

  10. #130
    For a mainly pve game why are people so quick to disagree with x spec needs a buff comments - surely if in this case bm does get buffed then it would benefit those players raid groups while allowing more choice rather than the assumed mm default. Giving the 'but its easy to play' is no good reason why bm shouldn't get a little love when you have the option to use a class that takes a little more effort - an option your not obligated.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    LOL hunters are the only ones who get punished for being decent. And yes I said DECENT not OP. BM hunters were good during 7.2 and Blizzard saw it and nerfed them hard. Now hunters are the worst performing class in both PvE and PvP. Other classes don't get treated like dirt but apparently it's okay to be stuck in a permanent state of lackluster for 2 expansions in a row now just because you are a hunter.
    I don't think it's true to say we have been bad for 2 expansions in a row. At least 1 hunter spec was one of the better ranged specs all throughout WoD (in the final tier MM was the only good spec, but previous to then all were viable).

    We have also been fine for the first 3 raid tiers of this expansion. It's only the shittiness of our later tier sets and the lack of scaling that makes us bad in ToS and Antorus.

  12. #132
    It's almost like thru the history of WoW specs haven't changed dramatically from tier to tier.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post


    Feel free to link to the part of that vid where he says that mobility is balanced with DPS loss.

    You call me lazy but you're too lazy to even read the discussion without replying with irrelevant shit.
    I am not going to search for something that was said by watcher. It wasn't in comparison to other classes...it was sometime in 2016. Basically, MM has less mobility and will do more dps because of that. I am fine with that. That was the case in EN and in ToS but now that gap has increased to much in certain fights.

    We need a minor single target buff 2-3% and a HUGE AOE BUFF.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Banard View Post
    Basically, MM has less mobility and will do more dps because of that. I am fine with that.
    No one should be fine with this. Specs should all be able to do great DPS and the choice should be up to the player based on class fantasy and the spec they find the most fun. This game has never been about the "hardest" specs doing the most damage. If it were, then specs like Affliction wouldn't be topping the rankings right now.

    Also, if it were truly balanced that way, then BM would be shining on heavy movement fights, but we don't.

  15. #135
    Deleted
    No one should be fine with this. Specs should all be able to do great DPS and the choice should be up to the player based on class fantasy and the spec they find the most fun.
    This is so naive though....
    Of course, we should have a complete equilibrium in dps, skill requirements and with the most diverse gameplay mechanics for each spec.

    But how do you think this is achievable? It's not.

    This is why down-, upsides and niches exist and they are supposed to add flair and identity.

    Less mobility, but more theoretical damage is exactly that. At the same time there is no point in having the same options in every spec, because if you want more damage with less mobility, you spec MM and out of BM and vice versa so it's not like BM should have an option to decrease mobility by a whole lot for a higher DPS ceiling. Some - yeah, maybe.

    edit: At the same time of course, that doesn't mean BM should be 20% behind avg. DPS or whatever.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2017-12-28 at 11:04 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    This is so naive though....
    Of course, we should have a complete equilibrium in dps, skill requirements and with the most diverse gameplay mechanics for each spec.

    But how do you think this is achievable? It's not.
    Just because something is not achievable/impossible does NOT mean we shouldn't strive for it. Of course Blizzard will never perfectly balance all the specs! But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be trying.

  17. #137
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    I rolled a hunter day 1 Vanilla. I've mained one since that day and I've played through all the expansions, raids, etc. This is the first time I've truly disliked playing a hunter and thought about rerolling going forward if things don't change. It's not even that BM is kinda low and MM is better. MM is boring as fuck to play and vuln windows aren't good gameplay. BM is also mind numbing thing that at used to be kinda fun when it was dealing some decent damage. AoE is trash, etc. And don't even get started on Survival with it being melee. I rolled hunter for a ranged, not melee.

    Bring back MoP hunter specs. Please and thank you. At least for SV and BM. Bring back maybe WoD or WotLK MM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Banard View Post
    I am not going to search for something that was said by watcher.
    You're not going to bother searching for it, you're just going to keep expecting us to believe it anyway though.

    Here's the thing though: No WoW dev has ever said any such thing. You're imagining it or you're deliberately lying. Take your pick.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    You're not going to bother searching for it, you're just going to keep expecting us to believe it anyway though.

    Here's the thing though: No WoW dev has ever said any such thing. You're imagining it or you're deliberately lying. Take your pick.
    You look for it. I am not taking my afternoon looking through thread and thread of that crap. There is no database for this garbage. It was said. It is a fact. MM as less mobility and will be compensated by doing more damage. BM will do less damage but have more mobility. The gap was fine in EN to TOS but it has grown to large now.

    It was also understood that MM was going to be good at spread out aoe damage why BM would have decent "stacked" aoe (not the best but not a pure carry ^*^^(*( show like it is today) . These were the developers "philosophy" of the hunter class. At least how i and my fellow guidelines at the time understood it. It sure was the case until this tier.

    It also wasn't a blue post...it came from a Q&A.

    Marksmanship Hunter
    BM hunters are more mobile, but Marks has advantages that offset the lower mobility.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...on-Hazzikostas

    There you go. There is a bit of the conversation in that Q&A. There should be more but i am not looking anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jaimelannister View Post

    Also, if it were truly balanced that way, then BM would be shining on heavy movement fights, but we don't.
    I agree 100% it is why they failed at there own game design.

  20. #140
    Deleted
    At the 75th percentile, which is where you should aim to at least be, the difference between the top and bottom spec, on HC, is a rather nominal 200k. Sure, that gap could be closed a bit, but it's not as drastic a difference as you might think.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...gregate=amount

    At the 90th percentile, the gap increases to about 300k. It's not much of a difference tbh.

    Someone has to be bottom of the ladder.

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