Why us, Why bm.

[Deleted]

BM right now is pretty poor.
The damage is fairly low for st, and just non existent in aoe. Though, as many will point out, bm is seeing representation in the very top guilds, i.e. method on their argus kill; rogerbrown has even said that eventually mm will outscale it and the only reason they are picking bm is that it has the movement capability.

However, what not many people seem to want to ask is WHY does BM have to be the braindead spec that it once never was. Why in legion did they choose the spec I have mained for 5 years to be the one that a retarded 4 year old could play. And then, when u see people saying 'oh it should have low damage due to ease of game play and movement' it further angers me and I am sure many others.

Most people consider mop to have some of the best class design, I wonder why. For many classes, legion has done good. For a few it has destroyed a spec, but for hunters all 3.

If in bfa, myself, and rogerbrown - that repeatably mentioned hunter on this forum, have said we will reroll if large changes aren't made to gameplay.

DO YOU THINK BM PLAYERS WANT A SPEC THAT COULD BE PLAYED BY A MENTALLY CHALLENGED RACOON? no.

cant answer any of that but your a tad late in the day for class feedback beta was over a year ago :/

[gushDH]

For everyone saying BM is doing low dmg because it has mobility, the problem is that it should be balanced out in fights with movement. But in all fights, even in the ones with very much movement requirements, BM is still at the bottom specs. So that argument is invalid. BM should be good at those fights, it needs to shine at least at 1 boss, but it shines at none, even with the movement freedom.

[Nythiz]

current MM is like they took out all the cool abilities and left you with the filler. it is the most boring archer design i've seen yet.

I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Personally I think MM isn't in too bad a state currently. I think the Vulnerable mechanism as a resource needs some work, but it's not that awful.
I'd like to see it more easy to put vulnerable up without being so tied to RNG (I've had 10-20 second dry streaks which are a gigantic pain in the ass) and with a bit more reliability for AOE (Marksman AoE is very strong, but also very proc dependent).
I'm not a huge fan of things like Patient Sniper, but I do think that a mechanism like that is important to increase the skill ceiling of the spec. Playing MM at high performance without Patient Sniper is quite a lot easier than with Patient Sniper.

Aimed Shot hits hard which is fun. Marked Shot is so-so for single target, but quite fun in AoE. I mean the spec has quite a bit going for it.
I do miss Kill Shot at times, but our current "passive" execute is also really really strong. I'm always skyrocketing in the DPS meters in the last 20% of a fight, especially with Trueshot.
The spec isn't bad IMO, it does need some adjustments here and there. And the spec needs a high mobility option that is a little bit better worked out than the "meme-spec" that we had to work with.

MM has to stand still to spam aimed shot and hates to move, but yes even with movement it beats BM and takes way more skill than BM to play, get over it BM sucks, whole spec is trash, but pretending mechanics don't exist and movement isn't painful or random is just bullshit.

That's exactly what I'm saying though. Movement is painful, but not painful enough that BM has a clear and distinct advantage.
Even on what you could consider movement heavy fights, BM is generally in the lower 25% of the dps charts.
The spec isn't completely useless or needs a massive buff, but it currently feels like BM gets punished (or rather doesn't get buffs when it deserves those) because of some overrated advantage.

[Better]

However, what not many people seem to want to ask is WHY does BM have to be the braindead spec that it once never was. Why in legion did they choose the spec I have mained for 5 years to be the one that a retarded 4 year old could play. And then, when u see people saying 'oh it should have low damage due to ease of game play and movement' it further angers me and I am sure many others.

BM was braindead in WoD too, you were basically playing a slot machine every pull (in BRF where it was used). The player with the better RNG did better, had almost nothing to do with how you played. Even if you go back to MoP where BM is kinda notorious for how many buttons it had, it still wasn't really that hard of a spec to play.

[Deleted]

Spec design > your anecdotal sentiment.

The Spec design is pretty nice, not sure what you are talking about.
It's not something you can objectively disagree/agree with. Such a pathetic attempt to make your opinion sound like a fact.

I'm against 100% movement, I like the way we deal AoE, I like the way we have to plan our next 4-5 shots.
If there was anything I would change, I would disconnect Arcane/Multishot from Marked Shot and make Marked shot usable on it's own whenever there is a proc.

[Kissthebaby]

The Spec design is pretty nice, not sure what you are talking about.
It's not something you can objectively disagree/agree with. Such a pathetic attempt to make your opinion sound like a fact.

I'm against 100% movement, I like the way we deal AoE, I like the way we have to plan our next 4-5 shots.
If there was anything I would change, I would disconnect Arcane/Multishot from Marked Shot and make Marked shot usable on it's own whenever there is a proc.

You are definitely in the minority of people who like how mm is right now. I guarantee most people would rather have any other version of mm from the past then the one in the game/ legion right now. It’s not even a unique spec is just a copy cat of insert number of other class specs where you need to keep up a debuff on the target to do more damage with something. There was nothing wrong with mm last expansion, but instead of tweaking it a little or slightly changing it they just completely redesigned the whole spec/ class. Because rapid fire really needed to be name changed to trueshot. “People are really enjoying how marksman is playing during hellfire citadel” “lets make sure we change that”. How many wow I really like the feel of mm right post do you see. None because the class blows. You will see plenty of people complain how hunter is vastly different and not as fun as it was in previous expansions. And I’m not complaining about how the spec performs damage wise I’m sure it’s good. But that doesn’t mean it’s a spec that works with overwhelming community support. Legion hunter was a disaster, no other way to discribe it. The sad part is that hunters will be stuck with one spec being melee (that no one plays), one spec being not as good and one spec that everyone plays which will most likely be marksman. They will try and try to fix survival but hunter is now a 2 spec class with really only one spec if the other spec (bm) will be punished for movement.

[threads]

The Spec design is pretty nice, not sure what you are talking about.
It's not something you can objectively disagree/agree with. Such a pathetic attempt to make your opinion sound like a fact.

I'm against 100% movement, I like the way we deal AoE, I like the way we have to plan our next 4-5 shots.
If there was anything I would change, I would disconnect Arcane/Multishot from Marked Shot and make Marked shot usable on it's own whenever there is a proc.

MM was the most played spec in hfc and now has less parses than BM. people actively avoid the new design even tho it's tuned higher. sounds like pretty big failure to me.

even funnier considering MM was supposed to be the goto spec for all the old SV mains too.

[Ishan]

BM definitely has problems, especially in the gearing department (I mean t21 wtf!). Scaling is also pretty bad for BM hunters.
It is nowhere as bad as some people are making it out to be though.

It is an easy spec to play sure, but as some others pointed out so are a lot of other classes, but if you are not in a cutting edge mythic guild then it is definitely viable.

The ease of this spec allows me to better focus on maximizing my dps during a fight, and as such I often parse in the high 90's for my ilvl on boss fights.
I am regularly the DPS to beat and even get comments like "how is your dps so high" sometimes. I then tell them that they have it wrong and that BM is the bottom of the barrel spec and that everyone else just sucks badly. We then have a good laugh because the truth is that there are some pretty skilled players in my heroic only guild. And they parse in the upper 80's a lot of the time. Still the difference means I am very competitive.

So does BM have problems? Sure. Does it need a boost in some areas? Sure.
Is it beyond terrible? Heck no!

[Bronan]

current MM is like they took out all the cool abilities and left you with the filler. it is the most boring archer design i've seen yet.

Hunters aren't the only ones affected. Most other classes and specs have become boring/bad to play.

This is what happens when the Blizzard team has to redesign stuff but the devs who made the original great stuff are no longer with Blizzard, and their replacements don't know how to make a great game.

[nToxik]

BM DPS is usually strong at the start of a new expansion but trails off as the expansion ages. Most of this is because BM does not scale well with weapon ilevel. In this expansion, as your legendary weapon goes up, your pet damage does not go up proportionally the same, unlike MM. This happens every expansion. BM was strong in Nighthold but since then dropped off significantly. BM was strong at the beginning of WoD but again dropped off. I realize that some of this had to do with Tier changes (WoD T18 buffed MM a lot and T19 Nighthold 2-pc was super strong) but they really need to have pet damage scale better with weapon ilevel.

With the removal of tier bonuses in BfA, hopefully Blizz can fix this.

[Deleted]

MM was the most played spec in hfc and now has less parses than BM. people actively avoid the new design even tho it's tuned higher. sounds like pretty big failure to me.

even funnier considering MM was supposed to be the goto spec for all the old SV mains too.

Pretty weak argument considering that the specs other than MM were pretty much dead in HFC. And right now, they are more or less equal in strength, or at least not even as remotely as far apart as in WoD.

Legion hunter was a disaster, no other way to discribe it. The sad part is that hunters will be stuck with one spec being melee (that no one plays), one spec being not as good and one spec that everyone plays which will most likely be marksman. They will try and try to fix survival but hunter is now a 2 spec class with really only one spec if the other spec (bm) will be punished for movement.

So what was WoD Hunter then? With MM being the only spec that was used at the end.

[Kissthebaby]

Pretty weak argument considering that the specs other than MM were pretty much dead in HFC. And right now, they are more or less equal in strength, or at least not even as remotely as far apart as in WoD.



So what was WoD Hunter then? With MM being the only spec that was used at the end.

WoD hunter before hfc was one of the only times ever where all 3 specs did about the same damage with bm being very slightly better because of set bonuses. There was 2 raids where hfc mm wasn’t a thing. Also hfc mm set bonus made it over powered but bm was still ok and blizzard had given up on survival for hfc because they knew it was going to be melee so people wouldn’t miss it they made it terrible damage wise. Remember them removing the serpent sting initial tick damage for no reason? They went from perfect balance to making one spec superior. Also some say it’s the most fun people have had playing hunter in hfc so I don’t think anyone complained, when a spec is fun and does good damage, you don’t see many complaints about the other specs. Can’t make everyone happy and bm was playable. You can’t always have all 3 specs 100% viable but god damn it was very fucking close for the first tier of WoD.

When you start reading what I said and realizing why survival was so not viable for hfc it definitely makes a whole lot of sense. Why make a spec that will be melee by next year a viable option for hfc when a bunch of angry people who just lost their spec will be upset. There’s a reason they nerfed survival to the ground for hfc SO NO ONE WOULD MISS IT. It was forgotten because hfc mm was so good. Misdirection at its finest . Just think if hfc mm was the spec that went melee . Everyone would flip out over the spec they just played for a year being changed. It’s all bs. Survival was great pre hfc, it randomly gets forgotten / nerfed, and everyone falls in love with mm for a year of hfc. Then blizzard shits on everyone with legion. Hunter in a nutshell

[Paulosio]

BM has low damage not because it's easy to play, otherwise DHs and DKs would be doing 0 damage, but because it's the only ranged spec with 100% mobility, doesn't need to stand still to cast anything while all other ranged specs must stand still to cast at least some of their stuff.

The problem with that argument is that the other ranged classes in most cases still out perform BM even on movement heavy fights assuming they are played by a competent player... but then as soon as there is a limited / predictable movement fight, those other ranged classes are just far ahead. And that's even single target where BM is at its best. As soon as you introduce cleave / aoe into the equation then BM is even worse off.

BM doesn't really have a niche. It doesn't shine anywhere.

[Deleted]

Everyone would flip out over the spec they just played for a year being changed. It’s all bs. Survival was great pre hfc, it randomly gets forgotten / nerfed, and everyone falls in love with mm for a year of hfc. Then blizzard shits on everyone with legion. Hunter in a nutshell

Of course everyone was in love with MM, because it was overpowered and had no downsides whatsoever and had even less decision making that it has now.
Even if SV would've gotten the damage buff it needed, it wouldn't have been played in HFC because it would've been inferior by (encounter)design.
To pretend that it was "love" that made people play MM is presumptuous

[Banard]

However, what not many people seem to want to ask is WHY does BM have to be the braindead spec that it once never was.

What? I play bm. You know why i play bm? BECAUSE ITS THE LEASE CHANGED SPEC FROM PRE-LEGION CHANGES.

braindead....i started in BC...and you know what we did back then? DO YOU!?! We rolled BM and copy pasted:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

barley knowing wtf that did and but we listen, did the cookie cutter tree spec and spammed that 1 button but macro. That was it. %^&*^* I only spammed steady shot in Tier 7 too and still topped meters in my little sandbox.

It wasnt until Cata that BM changed to anything else and it wasn't that different then it is today.

[Nythiz]

You are definitely in the minority of people who like how mm is right now. .

Maybe the minority of the vocal people.
People don't tend to post on boards if they enjoy something, it's mostly just to complain. It's how the internet works.

Personally I think the Vulnerability system needs some work, but the idea behind it is not bad. Blizzard seems quite keen on giving every dps spec it's own personal resource system. Be it vulnerability, mongoose fury, insanity, shadow dance or whatever else.

I can tell you that people complained plenty about the old MM spec as well. It had plenty of it's own flaws.

I think Vulnerability would be quite ok if they patch it up a little. Remove the need of 2 GCDs to apply it and you're halfway there.
Do something about the terrible RNG (on AoE my dps can vary by like a factor of 4-6 depending on the procs) and you're 90% there.

MM was the most played spec in hfc and now has less parses than BM. people actively avoid the new design even tho it's tuned higher. sounds like pretty big failure to me.

even funnier considering MM was supposed to be the goto spec for all the old SV mains too.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Just because MM is played less does not mean that the playstyle is perceived as a lot worse.
In HFC MM was just about the most viable spec by quite a margin (SV was lagging far behind after the serpent sting nerf and BM thrived mostly on the 4 set from BRF which was being phased out) and MM on top of that had an absolutely insanely good tier set that made the spec really easy to play (BM easy, as some would say).

And even if the fun spec in HFC caused a lot of people to flock towards it; you can't keep a spec that has nearly everything without downsides or weaknesses and expect it to stay alive over the course of the next expansion.
I mean instant Aimed Shot was amazing, but it was also insanely killing for the specs Skill Ceiling. Not having to time movement or think 2-3 seconds ahead is what caused most ranged classes to have it extremely easy between Cata and WoD. It's a good thing they nerfed that IMO.

[Banard]

Correlation does not imply causation.

no but in this case it does and i dont mean comparing current MM with HFC MM. In general when it comes to Hunter changes the MAJORITY of people do not like were hunters are today.

When the phrase "MoP game play was better" becomes a norm in conversation then you know there is a issue. Never before have i experienced a hatred for my class as i do now. I am not the only one. I play BM not because it like it but it makes me feel like i am playing the same ^*(^(* class i been playing for 12+ years.

The only other time Hunters were even close to be this bad was the introduction of focus at the end of WOTLK. Level 80 focus hunters sucked big &*(&()&() balls. There was a lot of whining back then....but when level 85 hit for the most part we all fell in love with it.

We are working on year 2...and there are enough people grumbling still about these changes to the hunter class that it should be scene as a failure. A failure all across the board.

My class that had 3 ranged trees with pets....not has 1 ranged spec with a range weapon and a pet. It sucks big old monkey ^(^(^&9s.

[Crimsonfiend76]

Ok, so I hear all the time I have to put up with a lower dps output and easy rotation because BM is a mobile spec... well can I have my old, slightly more complicated MOP-BM with a more dynamic rotation ( focus fire, lynx rush, baseline stampede, kill shot, rapid fire, serpent sting-hell i'd even like to cast hunter's mark again just to have something to do) and casted cobra shot = higher damage? I never asked for a highly mobile, infantile spec with average dps just so I can have a pet. I feel like more and more hunters are being punished or marginalized for wanting to roll with a pet.

[Hablelol]

why are you buying into this?
Because other people say so?

Bm really isn't easier to play than the good majority of other specs. Do you really think bm is much easier than playing havoc or fury or outlaw or elemental or frost, because newsflash: It isn't.

Most, if not all specs, have been made extremely easy to play.

- - - updated - - -



which is a limitation for actually no one. Because every caster has mobility options to limit movement and has instant casts to cover any time they can't stand still.

it's so true. This guy for pres.

[threads]

Ok, so I hear all the time I have to put up with a lower dps output and easy rotation because BM is a mobile spec... well can I have my old, slightly more complicated MOP-BM with a more dynamic rotation ( focus fire, lynx rush, baseline stampede, kill shot, rapid fire, serpent sting-hell i'd even like to cast hunter's mark again just to have something to do) and casted cobra shot = higher damage? I never asked for a highly mobile, infantile spec with average dps just so I can have a pet. I feel like more and more hunters are being punished or marginalized for wanting to roll with a pet.

basically being punished because some guy made a melee spec nobody wanted, bm able to be played by a 2 yr old, and MM a boring caster.