[Holy] Which Antorus fights (if any) should I be using Holy Avenger on?

[RiotProject]

I don't have the ring (yet), so I still have to choose between Divine Purpose and HA.
Just wondering when I should use what.

[Grogplus]

Ask yourself how comfortable do you feel manawise and whether or not you need a burst cooldown, do you know fights well enough to not pop your HA during chill phase, how much movement involved in a fight i.e can you afford staying still and casting stuff?

[Deleted]

you don't pick HA over DP

[Deleted]

you don't pick HA over DP

This is ofc correct. Stay away from avenger especially on argus mythic. 2x mana reset, clear cd spots, better go with dp.

Fucking holy discord with their memes. Is amantino still mod btw? "No good holy paladin uses sac on majority of progression fights!!!11"
But then again how would he know.

[Deleted]

"No good holy paladin uses sac on majority of progression fights!!!11"
.

that's true, sac is good on very few fights

[Lasthope337]

I use HA on M Argus, and Aggramar. I typically use Prydaz for Velens. For Aggramar I use Soul + Velens, for Argus I use Judgment ring + Soul.

[Deleted]

that's true, sac is good on very few fights

It's terrible players like you giving advice that made people which rely on guides and "community discords" play mercy on so many fights this expansion. And then late into ToS the main theorycrafting clown of the discord finally figures out that devo passive beats mercy by quite a significant margin (obviously nothing changed here whole expansion). And yet people are still so clueless. Overall hps didn't matter on a single fight this expansion (and even if it would sac wins here default anyway). What did matter tho on nearly all fights were raid cds. What's the best raid cd in the game again by an insane margin? Oh yeah it's sac. Wait even if the fight isn't good for sac it can prevent a wipe 100% reactively while devo is completely useless in that situation? Damn my brain can't handle this tough decision.

[Deleted]

It's terrible players like you giving advice that made people which rely on guides and "community discords" play mercy on so many fights this expansion. And then late into ToS the main theorycrafting clown of the discord finally figures out that devo passive beats mercy by quite a significant margin (obviously nothing changed here whole expansion). And yet people are still so clueless. Overall hps didn't matter on a single fight this expansion (and even if it would sac wins here default anyway). What did matter tho on nearly all fights were raid cds. What's the best raid cd in the game again by an insane margin? Oh yeah it's sac. Wait even if the fight isn't good for sac it can prevent a wipe 100% reactively while devo is completely useless in that situation? Damn my brain can't handle this tough decision.

i've never used mercy, always used devo ... you dont use cds to save a raid from a wipe, you use them for pre planned spells that occur during the fights and on antorus there very few fights where sarifice is gonna be more useful than devo, sac is not the best raid cd, devo is.

Sac is the best cd if there is a damage pattern like ilgynoth where for 10 seconds whole raid take an absurd amount of damage. Problem is that you can count those type of fights on one hand, krosus was another good example. If you take Sac on very fight of antorus you are the one who is clueless or just want to padd warcraftlogs.

[Deleted]

i've never used mercy, always used devo ... you dont use cds to save a raid from a wipe, you use them for pre planned spells that occur during the fights and on antorus there very few fights where sarifice is gonna be more useful than devo, sac is not the best raid cd, devo is.

Sac is the best cd if there is a damage pattern like ilgynoth where for 10 seconds whole raid take an absurd amount of damage. Problem is that you can count those type of fights on one hand, krosus was another good example. If you take Sac on very fight of antorus you are the one who is clueless or just want to padd warcraftlogs.

Why do you post if you have absolutely no clue? Weird that sac was amazing on the two only relevant bosses this tier when you can "count the type of fights on one hand". Hold my beer while I hard carry both intermissions on aggramar with double stack or blast through triple chains on argus. Hope you'll see for yourself in a few months and don't gimp your raid with devo and needing multiple other cds/carry from co healers.

[Deleted]

Why do you post if you have absolutely no clue? Weird that sac was amazing on the two only relevant bosses this tier when you can "count the type of fights on one hand". Hold my beer while I hard carry both intermissions on aggramar with double stack or blast through triple chains on argus. Hope you'll see for yourself in a few months and don't gimp your raid with devo and needing multiple other cds/carry from co healers.

Good on two bosses from a 11 bosses raid = best cd in the game xD

[Archibalde]

Good on two bosses from a 11 bosses raid = best cd in the game xD

It's good on most bosses. Devotion Aura is very good for progression when certain abilities might wipe the raid or if your healing comp can't top people off quickly enough after a special attack, but the passive aura is not always useful outside of the activated effect. The bigger the raid group, the less effective it becomes.

Sacrifice's passive is much more useful in general since you give people a lot more damage reduction as long as you keep yourself up, which isn't exactly difficult. The activated effect can be a very powerful cooldown as well especially with the way our tier works.

[Deleted]

It's good on most bosses. Devotion Aura is very good for progression when certain abilities might wipe the raid or if your healing comp can't top people off quickly enough after a special attack, but the passive aura is not always useful outside of the activated effect. The bigger the raid group, the less effective it becomes.

Sacrifice's passive is much more useful in general since you give people a lot more damage reduction as long as you keep yourself up, which isn't exactly difficult. The activated effect can be a very powerful cooldown as well especially with the way our tier works.

i mean, i appreacite the concern but we are long away from just listing which aura does what, we all know what they do, it's what it is tailored better to the fights that matter here.

[capri sunset]

i mean, i appreacite the concern but we are long away from just listing which aura does what, we all know what they do, it's what it is tailored better to the fights that matter here.

Right the type of fight is important, but I feel you're vastly overestimating how effective devo is compared to sac's potential. You'll have to forgive me about the broken up links but we can look by the numbers from some random logs

Imonar:
warcraftlogs . com/reports/bv42gLGakpHN1T3j#fight=34&type=damage-taken&translate=true&start=10242713&end=10250771

20m group dtps, so if this was devo over those 8 seconds it prevents 32m damage, however this group coordinates sac well and it heals for 80m.

Aggramar:
warcraftlogs . com/reports/1ghvtRj3GKkbWD7w#fight=9&type=damage-taken&translate=true&start=5268305&end=5276373

28m group dtps, devo prevents very respectable 44m, but this paladin's sac healed for 55m.

Felhounds:
warcraftlogs . com/reports/8yPganr3XbAWJKxN#fight=2&type=damage-taken&translate=true&start=1601238&end=1609258

A lower damage fight just for the fun of it. 7m group dtps, 11.2m devo, 25m sac.


This is a very common trend across pretty much all bosses, there's definitely an argument on varimathras but even then if you have a chunk of leech then sac passive can prevent a silly amount of damage.

Obviously devo has its occasional moments, that's when you're taking damage faster than sac can heal it, which is only really from one shots like star augur for instance. I'm sure you remember when our only raid cooldown was devo, it was never considered in the tier of real raid cooldowns outside of things like bleeding edge dark animus, if it's not preventing outright deaths it's just saving a little mana which brings me nicely to my main point.

If we're talking about progression then your healers are playing as a complete team, one of sac's biggest strengths is having your other healers not have to do a single thing for a small cost on your part, and that saves them a ridiculous amount of mana and also their cooldowns. Yes, you have often have to commit wings to it but for your casual 30m sac tyrs and/or avenger does just fine. This is not padding, this is the definition of playing for the team and if your other healers are overlapping/wasting mana then there's coordination lacking or they are the ones with the problem.

[Deleted]

Just pick Divine Purpose. I have played with HA all expansion but really I dont think it gets proper use in raids apart from combining it with Tyr's. It finds better use in M+

[HPLathus]

It's terrible players like you giving advice that made people which rely on guides and "community discords" play mercy on so many fights this expansion. And then late into ToS the main theorycrafting clown of the discord finally figures out that devo passive beats mercy by quite a significant margin (obviously nothing changed here whole expansion). And yet people are still so clueless. Overall hps didn't matter on a single fight this expansion (and even if it would sac wins here default anyway). What did matter tho on nearly all fights were raid cds. What's the best raid cd in the game again by an insane margin? Oh yeah it's sac. Wait even if the fight isn't good for sac it can prevent a wipe 100% reactively while devo is completely useless in that situation? Damn my brain can't handle this tough decision.

Sorry, but you have 0 idea what you are talking about. There is a good reason that people follow the holy paladin discord, the resources on there are mathematically proven. Sac is not the best raid CD, sorry no. It has few, FEW spots where it get's its full potential. If you have to move during it, rip. Krosus was one of the few this expansion it was reliable.

Mercy is good, because it's consistent. Devo is good, because it flat out reduces damage taken. Sac is situational, and if you don't get your super special holy shock proc or mega ultra crit during it, you don't get it's full effect. Mercy? Mercy is mercy, always does the same healing. Devo, always does the same healing. Mercy also heals consistently the entire fight.

Don't come here bashing the holy discord, who are you ? Post some relevant logs or have a character in your signature before you start pouring out nonsense.

- - - Updated - - -

To the OP.

HA is hands down the highest throughput talent you have. Pair it with tyrs generally, but yea it beats DP by a large margin. Always has. DP is good throughput, and better on mana if that is an issue for you.

HA is a CD, so you can rely on having it when you need it. DP is RNG, so you could go a full minute without a proc, then get 10 procs in a row, then go dry another minute. Main reason i hated it is because I would get procs when I didn't need them, or I wouldn't get any at all.

[KrazyKraka0]

i've never used mercy, always used devo ... you dont use cds to save a raid from a wipe, you use them for pre planned spells that occur during the fights and on antorus there very few fights where sarifice is gonna be more useful than devo, sac is not the best raid cd, devo is.

Sac is the best cd if there is a damage pattern like ilgynoth where for 10 seconds whole raid take an absurd amount of damage. Problem is that you can count those type of fights on one hand, krosus was another good example. If you take Sac on very fight of antorus you are the one who is clueless or just want to padd warcraftlogs.

Wow I must be doing it wrong then, here I was thinking that aura of sacrifice's passive 10% Damage reduction to people within 10yds of you which during aura mastery increases to the entire raid (and has a huge healing component to the aura mastery portion), was better than a passive 20% split damage reduction in 10yds (which on most fights dips around 2-4% DR) and only has a 10% DR increase over sacrifice during aura mastery (with no healing component)

Good on two bosses from a 11 bosses raid = best cd in the game xD

From the few mythic bosses I've killed so far at least my assessment on it is:

Garothi: Good for the huge burst in damage caused by eradication after destroying the cannon
Fel Hounds: Great for fire debuff players moving from swirls on ground caused by Siphon Corruption
Antoran High Council: Great for later fusillade hits
Portal Keeper: Great for damage when solo / duo healing main platform during Collapsing world burst
Eonar: Good for catching back up on heals on the whole group when you might be only healer in range
Imonar: Great for the bridge when triggering multiple tripwire traps

But yeah, definitely only has uses on 2 bosses

[Taeldorian]

Sorry, but you have 0 idea what you are talking about. There is a good reason that people follow the holy paladin discord, the resources on there are mathematically proven. Sac is not the best raid CD, sorry no. It has few, FEW spots where it get's its full potential. If you have to move during it, rip. Krosus was one of the few this expansion it was reliable.

Mercy is good, because it's consistent. Devo is good, because it flat out reduces damage taken. Sac is situational, and if you don't get your super special holy shock proc or mega ultra crit during it, you don't get it's full effect. Mercy? Mercy is mercy, always does the same healing. Devo, always does the same healing. Mercy also heals consistently the entire fight.

Don't come here bashing the holy discord, who are you ? Post some relevant logs or have a character in your signature before you start pouring out nonsense.

- - - Updated - - -

To the OP.

HA is hands down the highest throughput talent you have. Pair it with tyrs generally, but yea it beats DP by a large margin. Always has. DP is good throughput, and better on mana if that is an issue for you.

HA is a CD, so you can rely on having it when you need it. DP is RNG, so you could go a full minute without a proc, then get 10 procs in a row, then go dry another minute. Main reason i hated it is because I would get procs when I didn't need them, or I wouldn't get any at all.

I don’t think that’s correct at all. Sac isn’t necessarily situational. If there’s huge incoming raidwide burst damage you can use sac effectively. You make it seem like it’s unreliable but that’s not the case at all.

Aggramar, AHC, Garothi, coven, Portal keeper all have very predictable raidwide burst damage that can make insane use of Sac. Both mythic and heroic versions.

You also don’t need an insane holy shock or any of that. You pair sac with a big CD for a reason and that’s to ensure sac will do insane healing. You should never pop it dry or it won’t be as effective. You pop it with wings or HA to make Holy shock a guaranteed crit or a lot more effective during the window. Therefore making the window 100% reliable.

Both sac and devo can save your raid if used properly. Mercy can help with extra healing but won’t save your raid in very scary moments that can happen from fuck ups or just huge damage in general.

In terms of the passive, the AoS passive is actually pretty good. Devo passive isn’t good until you hit AM since it depreciates in value when you stand with 3-4 other people (becomes a 2%? Damage reduction) meanwhile sac still absorbs 75% of incoming damage no matter how many people you stand with (max of 4). So sac is useful outside of AM and during AM as well meanwhile devo is only useful during AM due to how the passive works.

TLDR: All 3 auras can be very useful, however sac pulls ahead in raids when used correctly. The passive is decent and the healing during AM is crazy when you combo it with a CD like AW or HA. A ton of boss fights on both mythic and heroic have predictable raidwide burst damage where you can make effective use of sac. Devo and mercy both have their niches in raids though where they can potentially be more useful, however sac isn’t what you’re making it out to be.

Logs if you want them: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...ge/taeldoriàn

[Deleted]

Sorry, but you have 0 idea what you are talking about. There is a good reason that people follow the holy paladin discord, the resources on there are mathematically proven. Sac is not the best raid CD, sorry no. It has few, FEW spots where it get's its full potential. If you have to move during it, rip. Krosus was one of the few this expansion it was reliable.

Mercy is good, because it's consistent. Devo is good, because it flat out reduces damage taken. Sac is situational, and if you don't get your super special holy shock proc or mega ultra crit during it, you don't get it's full effect. Mercy? Mercy is mercy, always does the same healing. Devo, always does the same healing. Mercy also heals consistently the entire fight.

I don't think I need to post anything if you go full self own mode. No point discussing nuances with people that have no grasp of the basics.

[Deleted]

Love how people point out logs as if it matters anything lmao.
Just admit that you want to padds healing meters and move on.
Also "woah im so cool for the discord" attitude makes you look like a 6yo kid.

[AoinoMiku]

Sac is most of the times the best choice. Devo is normally used for situations when the burst might kill your your raid like on eye of il'gynoth if u exploded all the 8 ichor at the same time (normmaly used with another's healer cooldown). Mercy for fights u can't use/need any of the above , if there is a good chunck of aoe damage during heavy movement phases (even then u can just have another healer use his at that time and use yours when it is more favourable), or if u don't know how to properly use sac...