"One day, Silvermoon will stand on the side of the Alliance, I know it"

[Obelisk Kai]

She says this in the embassy before you go on and do the quest line/scenarios for unlocking void elves. She does go to Silvermoon to persuade them to switch sides. Then shenanigans occur which ends with her having a group of fellow void corrupted elves that swear allegiance to the alliance.

This isn't some foreshadowing of someone to come, but some flavor text to lead into the velf story.

I am aware of that. However, I am also taking into account other commentary

Lor'themar Theron: Enough! You will leave at once, Alleria. Accident or no, your presence poses a danger to Quel'Thalas. Go back to Stormwind. Silvermoon is no longer your home.
Alleria Windrunner: As you command, Regent Lord. For now.

Alleria wants Silvermoon in the Alliance. There is a good chance she will convince herself that an Alliance invasion of Silvermoon will be a case of saving her people from themselves.

Silvermoon is the last Horde city in the EK and an obvious target.

I am not saying this will definitely occur. But the possibility is definitely there.

[Mace]

Night Elves accepted the arcane magic but their priority is nature while Nightborne are heavily ... lets just say 100% arcane. The things that you are pointing out are all about the past. But since Cata they accepted the highborne back to their society and highbornes played a noticeable role in different situations after it.

The problem that the Night Elves have with the Nightborne is that they abandoned them during the WotA and ignored the world for 10 thousand years and turned themselves into mana addicts and emerged by joining the Legion and did what exactly Azshara did 10k years ago. Night Elves are not against arcane magic anymore. They are against the reckless use of arcane magic which can harm the nature.

Indeed, but I wouldn't even go to say the night elves have a problem with the nightborne. Tyrande was cautious and suspicious, but she is like that at first. The nightborne rather chose the blood elves over the night elves cos they kissing ass so bad the official line is they literally charmed Thalyssra into joining them. I wonder if the lore will portray her as being fully aware of the situation before she picked a side, it really should be low priority with them - they've all just had the most momentous of occurrences to them. Suramar returned (this is huge for kaldorei who thought every part of their wondrous civilization lost and shal'dorei who've been trapped in it), the Legion defeated (this is huge, huge, huge as the Legion has dominated how they lived their lives for the last 10k years - not using magic, isolated in Mount Hyjal (kal'dorei) or in Suramar (shal'dorei), arcane addiction cured (no more withering (shal'dorei), no more fear of becoming an addicted mana fiend).

10,000 years of existence and purpose finally comes to an end, and with revelations about Illidan etc. Given their great age, knowledge and wisdom, horde/alliance allegiance should be very secondary to them, they should be all about making thier own way, rebuilding themselves, and thier role in the horde/alliance should be more towards guiding the two from outward destroying each other, guide them to make sure they're not too caught up in their fights to actually eliminate global threats, and really finally recovering and restoring themselves and the world to the paradise they made it before the horror.

But blizzard has them totally caught up in the horde/alliance squabbling, this is disappointing - their story should continue to be it's own thing they are majorly involved with, and only always part players in the conflict, by lore they are both quite powerful and could easily have been written as powerful enough to hold both their allies and their friends' enemies in check from doing stupid things. The relationship with the humans and blood elves should have been one based on friendship not need and rather they should be allies of the alliance (kaldorei) and allies of the horde (shal'dorei) rather than full on sworn members like dwarves/gnomes or tauren/darkspears.

Would have been nice to see some nuance i the races, instead of "hey, we're alliance, and all our races hate all the horde races" and vice versa. Like the faction is everything to all the memmber races.

- - - Updated - - -

Up to now I've been focusing on a more narrative perspective(because I feel that's ultimately what's more important when Blizzard can change whatever lore they feel like), but we'll have to agree to disagree. You think they should incorperate more aracane themes, I think it will just make them more homogenized and kill what makes Night Elves distinct and fun. That's fair, to each their own.


But from a lore perspective, you wonder why people don't view the Night Elves as strong arcane users... probably because that's not what we see in game?

After WOTA the Shen'dralar lived in ruins, they were reduced to sucking on demons. They never actively tried to rebuild themselves and in fact lost were reduced to a small section of their city. They stagnated for millennia, and when the cataclysm ,ost of them fled said ruins during the Cataclysm and ended up begging their way back into Night Elf civilization, which still seems to despise them. Not just Maiev, but Tyrande and most of the other Kaldorei were depicted as shuning them. For the most part, they are hated by their peers and live on the margins of Darnassian society.

Meanwhile the Blood Elves/Nightborne openly embraced the arcane and built entire cities with their power. They created the Sunwell and the pillar of creation empowered Nightwell. I mean just compare Suramar and Silvermoon to Darnassus, it's obvious which race is more into druidism and nature and which one is into arcane. Hell, in game the Shendrelar elves are mocked by the Blood Elves as being crap at magic and 10,000 years behind everyone else.

Halfdrop, that's the explanation I use to explain to people why the nightborne chose to join the blood elves (from the lore perspective) not a reason to show the night elves aren't strong arcane users.

What you are demonstrating is that the arcane isn't prolificly used through the current night elf society, and you are 100% correct, and I agree. What I am saying when I say night elves are strong arcane users is that they are naturally gifted with magic and talented at the arcane I am not saying their current society is flooded with the arcane (i mean what I say, literally - I have spent paragraphs talking about the two societies, if you read what I wrote, you should know I am fully aware of how prevalent the use of arcane is throughout the entire faction as I use it to highlight the difference between the societies - however, just because the arcane doesn't permeate their society doesn't mean the night elves aren't naturally exceptionally gifted and good with the arcane - it just means not all their society adopt it or utilise it - they are shown to have a very segregated society and their orders never mix (druids are separate from priests and also from mages - however they are reforming a society again after living as separate orders for 10k years). But they are naturally very gifted with magic, this is the same race that reached a height no one else has, just because the alliance group didn't use it for 10k years didnt' stop them from being brilliant at it, they don't all of a suudden lose the talent for the arcane which is their core because they stop using it.

And the nightborne, highborne, moonguard are all evidence that night elves who continue to use the arcane are still very brilliant and accomplished at it, for the others it is just a matter of raw talent needing training, they'll be as good as their teachers and the other arcane using night elf individuals when their training is complete - they are naturally very talented for the arcane. That hasn't changed.

Also the shen'dralar aren't being mocked by the blood elf in Azshara, it's the night elf new mages that he is mocking, he does not come up against a shen'dralar, none of them do. Also the blood elf spell breaker in Suramar also mocks the nightborne - blood elves are arrogant, doesn't mean their claims are true, clearly suramar and the nightborne are far more advanced than the blood elves arcane wise.

Suramar is an indication of the high level of arcane mastery the night elves have, this is the level of the shen'dralar highborne too, you just see it more easily in Suramar because it hasn't fallen into disuse. Dire Maul has a reason given for its condition, and it's not because the shend'ralar are bad at magic or aren't knowledgeable nor outdated, it's because of the demon Immol'thar. Also Dire Maul did not fall to ruin just after the WotA. We do not know exactly when, but it is fairly recently, because the city still has its highborne population and they are obsessed with their studies and magical theory - indicating they have advanced in their knowledge, they just don't care about upkeeping their city because they can't solve their power problem not because they aren't good at magic.

Suramar was built by night elves, highborne mages working with druidic ancients, all the wondrous night elven civilization that just blows every thing else out of the water was made by night elves, some of which are still alive in the alliance group as well as some in the nightborne group. It's not a nightborne only city. THe level of magic of the night elves 10k years ago is higher than the current level of magic. (this is the overall picture - you must not confuse this ability to fight with magic - clearly the moonguard are very good at that cause they specialise in it, magical use has many more parts to it than weaving fireballs or arcane blasts - more knowledge means their level of arcana is far more advanced, doesn't necessarily mean they would be adept at using that knolwedge for a fight straight off the bat especially when they have had no wars to fight for 10k years - this is probably how/why we get to defeat them in the Nighthold/

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Hacking_the_Construct



So there you go. The Shendrelar are so far behind the Blood Elves turned their out of date arcane constructs against them without so much as a hassle. Putting "arcane night elves" (this is what I meant when I said purple high elves btw) at the forefront of Kaldorei society is not just questionable from a meta narrative perspective, it's actually walking back on established lore.

Once again, those are night elf novices, not actual shen'dralar there in Azshara, whatever the blood elf thinks. The new night elf mages have only been weeks in training, with new classes and groups starting (presumably every day) dude, every night elf training to become a mage is hand picked by the shen'drlaar and becomes part of the Highborne faction, like Azshara, they have targetted the night elves with the highest talent and affinity for the arcane The blood elf just humiliated novices a few weeks into training, and is pouring scorn at the Hyjal night elves for picking up magic again - what he says about them is not necesarily true either and he certainly doesn't come up against a shen'dralar.

Yes it is.. this is why High Elves/ Night Elves split up in the first place.

I just don't see it. This doesn't seem like a unifying alliegence it seems like the Highborne having no place to go and the Night Elves barely tolerating them. You're gonna have to show me where this love for arcane is coming from.

Let's not forget the Night Elves were literally about to execute the Highborne, they wanted nothing to do with arcane magic. It's not exactly an environment for magi to thrive in.

Hell, Tyrande is still looking down on the "mana addicts" in Suramar. If they actually wanted to accept arcane again they would've embraced the Nightborne instead of rejecting them.

I have already showed you, you need to read what I wrote. Do night elves just love their moonwells and their well of eternity? Well those are all arcane. They don't hate the arcane, they never have. The night elves never hated the arcane (Maiev does, not the race) many hated (perhaps too strong a word) the abusers of magic, not the arcane itself - the hate is directed to the group that led and portalled the demons to their world.

the lore shows you the night elves love the arcane (not loved) LOVE - this is why they got so into it, to the extent the highborne got addicted, and after the sundering - the hate is not at the arcane but rather there is a fear that its use would bring back the legion, so they ban its use for spells. However they continue to use its properties in the Moonwells they loves

Its all in the lore for you to see. If they hated the arcane or all arcane users, they would never have allied with the humans or liked the draenei, nor would they have worked with the highborne in WotA, nor allowed them back. Maeiv hates the arcane, but she is quite the special case there, its part of her character and drives her story arc. Magic made the elves what they are, but it also has the potential to destroy them - Farodin tells the adventurer, the only way this can be prevented is if elves use magic in balance and urges you to not give up on the shal'dorei and help him complete his order's work of finding a cure for the night elf arcane addiction. [not the blood elf one, the night elf one. His order was founded to cure the arcane addiction in the highborne before it drove them to do crazy things, they didn't find the cure in time to bring the Queen to her senses, and no cure has been found, until you help him finish the quest chain, the shal'dorei are the most imbalanced of the night elves, and the ones who would literally die without the arcane if their addiction isn't fixed, so they get first treatment, however, every night elf highborne can also be cured by this.

Tyrande does not hate the shal'dorei, her comments reflect her displeasure of the state of her former kin. Tyrande's people have accepted both magic and the highborne back, that has already happened. You cannot interprete later events without factoring the former ones otherwise your understanding will be wrong. You have clearly not factored in that Tyrande has accepted both magic and the highborne back into night elf society - because if you had you wouldn't say "if they actually wanted to accept magic" - they already have done, this is not the issue here at all. It's not based on acceptance of magic, you're not factoring in the post WC3 changes to the night elves and still boxing them into magic banning group and wrongly interpreting that as a hate of magic despite so much evidence around you telling you otherwise.

You haven't properly considered the night elf lore, and I am trying to help you by pointing out the aspects in the lore that should correct you, but you are "agreeing to disagree" - it is not my "opinion" that night elves have accepted the highborne back into their society, nor is it my opinion that they no longer ban magic. It is not my opinion that they don't hate the arcane - all this you are shown, nor is it my opinion that they have a problem with arcane abusers. Having a problem with arcane abusers is not the same as having the problem with the arcane itself or the use of it. It is not my opinion that the night elves banned the use of magic to prevent the return of the burning legion - not because they hated the arcane or were bad at it. It is not my opinion that the night elves are talented with the arcane seeing they were the very first to study magic in the world and built Azeroths most advanced magical civilization that 10k years after its destruction no other group can still match. This is not my opinion, this is the lore. I didn't write it.

The lore shows you nightborne choosing the blood elves not because arcane is hated or banned or night elves can't use it, but because of Tyrande's attitude and THalyssra feels the alliance would be too stifling /stagnating for her - but that's her opinion, it's not a fact about the alliance, she is so new to this new world and you have to factor in that waht the npcs say about things is not necessarily the fact about them, they are written to give their own opinion. Tyrande's opinion is not how the entire night elf race feels either, although her words and approach as her faction's leader would greatly influence whether someone wants to team up with her or not.

[Deleted]

Well thats what happens when you overdose on void. Too much crack for pretty princess and she got deranged.

Also, blizz clearly loves teasing helf fans. Its wonderfully cruel.

I would laugh so much if they decide to include them in the end tho.

The tears of horde players who wanted to be the unique snowflake. So palpable.

[cfStatic]

I would laugh so much if they decide to include them in the end tho.

The tears of horde players who wanted to be the unique snowflake. So palpable.

I'd say they'd grab their pitchforks and try and burn Blizz HQ to the ground, but the more likely scenario is that Blizzard will be washed away by a flood!

[ello]

dude, no offense but I feel like you type a lot while repeating the same things over and over again. It's a bit hard to tend to.

Also the shen'dralar aren't being mocked by the blood elf in Azshara, it's the night elf new mages that he is mocking, he does not come up against a shen'dralar, none of them do. Also the blood elf spell breaker in Suramar also mocks the nightborne - blood elves are arrogant, doesn't mean their claims are true, clearly suramar and the nightborne are far more advanced than the blood elves arcane wise.

The blood elf just humiliated novices a few weeks into training, and is pouring scorn at the Hyjal night elves for picking up magic again - what he says about them is not necesarily true either and he certainly doesn't come up against a shen'dralar.

Suramar is an indication of the high level of arcane mastery the night elves have, this is the level of the shen'dralar highborne too, you just see it more easily in Suramar because it hasn't fallen into disuse

What makes you say that? Their are apprentices there but there were higher ranking Night Elves too. Like this guy : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lorekeeper_Amberwind

she has the "lorekeeper" title and she is wearing Shen'dralar robes. That implies she is Shen'dralar.

I think It's disingenious to say the Shen'dralar are on the same level as the Nightborne/Void Elves / Blood Elves/ Humans. I haven't seen anything remarkable from them, they seem quite behind actually.

If we are just talking about Nightborne vs Highborne. Sure, they started out in the same place, but one group has has literally lived off arcane and embraced the eye of amanthul empowered Nightwell for 10000 years while the other gorup spent that time living in ruins while sucking off demons to survive. Which side do you think is gonna be more advanced?

Where do you say the Highborne are in terms of arcane prowess in comparison to the Humans?

And the nightborne, highborne, moonguard are all evidence that night elves who continue to use the arcane are still very brilliant and accomplished at it, for the others it is just a matter of raw talent needing training, they'll be as good as their teachers and the other arcane using night elf individuals when their training is complete - they are naturally very talented for the arcane. That hasn't changed

But they are naturally very gifted with magic, this is the same race that reached a height no one else has, just because the alliance group didn't use it for 10k years didnt' stop them from being brilliant at it, they don't all of a suudden lose the talent for the arcane which is their core because they stop using it.

They don't lose their current skills but they stagnated. The other Highborne that became Blood Elves/Nightborne progressed a lot faster because they were in more favorable environments(and still are).

Dire Maul has a reason given for its condition, and it's not because the shend'ralar are bad at magic or aren't knowledgeable nor outdated, it's because of the demon Immol'thar. Also Dire Maul did not fall to ruin just after the WotA. We do not know exactly when, but it is fairly recently, because the city still has its highborne population and they are obsessed with their studies and magical theory - indicating they have advanced in their knowledge, they just don't care about upkeeping their city because they can't solve their power problem not because they aren't good at magic.

Obessesion with something doesn't mean you've advanced. What has indicated the Highborne have made any progress?

Also, what makes you say the Nightborne are ahead of the Blood Elves? I'm not saying you're right or wrong I just don't see how you could call it one way or the other.

You have clearly not factored in that Tyrande has accepted both magic and the highborne back into night elf society - because if you had you wouldn't say "if they actually wanted to accept magic" - they already have done, this is not the issue here at all. It's not based on acceptance of magic, you're not factoring in the post WC3 changes to the night elves and still boxing them into magic banning group and wrongly interpreting that as a hate of magic despite so much evidence around you telling you otherwise.

By their own admission the Night Elves will take many years before they can fully forgive and embrace the Highborne again(Wolfheart). These are Malfurion's words, not mine. That's why I was saying the Kaldorei haven't fully accepted the Highborne yet, because they say so themselves.

[Whitedragon]

this is a two faction game, that's all I'm gonna say.

didn't stop Garrosh from being axed off.

[ello]

didn't stop Garrosh from being axed off.

Doing it once is harsh, doing it twice is just ridiculous.

[ello]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was gone for good. Purple high elves seems to be the devs goals here and they are completely trashing this race to get it there. But then building up the Nightborne as the successor to everything that made Night Elves interesting, and removing the burden of Druidism as well.

The best thing that could happen to the Night Elves rn would be to bring Maeiv back in to the fold so she could lead a (successful) Kalimdor campaign against the Horde, taking back whatever land they lost, without Human help.

Then on the other side of the map Forsaken push the Alliance out of Lordaeron and Anduin steps down as High King with his tail between his legs.

would be a glorious day.

[Deleted]

The best thing that could happen to the Night Elves rn would be to bring Maeiv back in to the fold so she could lead a (successful) Kalimdor campaign against the Horde, taking back whatever land they lost, without Human help.

Then on the other side of the map Forsaken push the Alliance out of Lordaeron and Anduin steps down as High King with his tail between his legs.

would be a glorious day.

Would not mind that at all.

Regarding Silvermoon on the side of the Alliance - could happen, if the Horde stops to exist and WoW becomes a 1-faction-game (which I also would like because faction war gets boring after more than a decade, especially since we did not have factions in WCIII and the whole faction thing was a huge step back in the storytelling).

But as long as Blizzard keeps on the 2 faction system... I don't see Silvermoon change their positions. No matter how you spin the lore, this will not work out, especially not with the Nightborne allied race joining the Horde because the Blood Elves are there, creating an equally strong tie for the Blood Elves to remain with the Horde (in the case where the ties to the Forsaken weaken).

I have to admit that I am totally on Schadenfreude regarding HE fanboys getting VE instead. Honestly, HE are a dying breed. And I like VE much more, so I have even more reasons to look forward to that. I am just jealous that my Horde BE characters are denied a beautiful hawkstrider variant with void and sparkles.

Damn you, Blizzard! But I planned to play Alliance in BfA anyway.

[MechaCThun]

Oh lord, OP is a weeb for Alleria.

J/k, on topic:

Naw, the blood elves have always been a great addition of civility and sophistication to the Horde; to counter the savagery the Horde typically represents.

[Zyky]

Where does it say that? Haven't seen that quote anywhere on the PTR news either on MMOchamp or WoWhead.

When you talk to Alleria in Stormwind BEFORE she tries to pull them into the Alliance in that Scenario with the Sunwell, that's her dialogue.

[Mace]

Alleria has been gone for a thousand years. She has no authority to determine the fate of the people she has now abandoned. She has no clue what happened and she wishes to assert her will on them. Alliance fanboy mod gave me an infraction, but I don't care. Any hate towards Alleria is worth 10 infractions.

Wasn't aware she abandoned them, wasn't she told to leave?

No clue? Assert her will on them? - sound like a butt hurt fan boi that Alleria iddn't join their faction - I don't get how people can get butt hurt over stuff like that, it's a game story, told with two sides, surely you have to consider the other side's perspective too.. it's written like that.. and half of hte time it isn't that bad.

[whipsybask]

When you talk to Alleria in Stormwind BEFORE she tries to pull them into the Alliance in that Scenario with the Sunwell, that's her dialogue.

The Alliance embassy stuff happens after the Horde embassy stuff though. She goes to Silvermoon in the Nightborne scenario, then mentions going to Silvermoon and being rejected when talking to Anduin.

[Stefanus]

There's no chance Alliance fanboys will ever get their hands on Quel'thalas. There's no getting past Eastern Plaguelands loading screen. YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!

[Magnagarde]

Silvermoon EU stands with the Alliance, so she's right at least in that regard lol

[Mace]

What makes you say that? Their are apprentices there but there were higher ranking Night Elves too. Like this guy : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lorekeeper_Amberwind

she has the "lorekeeper" title and she is wearing Shen'dralar robes. That implies she is Shen'dralar.

All night elf mages wear those robes. Lorekeeper is a highborne title, you find it amongst nightborne too, Thalassian elves too, as well as Kaldorei.
She is not "The Shen'dralar" either, all night elves that train as mages are now Highborne - this was part of the alliance agreement the kaldorei made with the quel'dorei.

Blizzard actually stated that the mages you fight in Azshara were not Shen'dralar.

I think It's disingenious to say the Shen'dralar are on the same level as the Nightborne/Void Elves / Blood Elves/ Humans. I haven't seen anything remarkable from them, they seem quite behind actually.

Why? Surely because you don't see a pristine night elf civilization doesn't mean their magic isn't as advanced. How do I reach that conclusion?Do the dragons have an advanced civilization? Yet their magic surpasses that of the elves in a lot of areas. Just b/c they don't use it to build cities doesn't mean it's not advanced or progressing. There are other pointers too.

1. You are told the Highborne in Dire Maul have been studying magic continuously since the sundering and scrying on the world the whole time - add to the fact their city was not destroyed by the sundering, add to that it was a research and development centred city - they would have had the knowledge of the age, and much expertise available to them. The only thing they lacked was the power to for the larger scale spellwork of the size you would need the Well of Eternity. i.e. replicate large scale wonders quite common in their age and utilize new develpments -i.e. a reason you don't see them

2. You are told why the city is in the state of decline. Remember it is not in complete ruins - and the vast majority of the deterioration has only occured more recently, i.e. it did not happen immediately after the sundering, but much much later, because you meet Dire Maul inhabitants at a time Immol'thar is still alive, still trapped and still powering the city even though he is now drawing more power than giving and Tothel'drin, maddened by the demons' influence is slowly killing off his citizens. There are still shen'dralar alive, and still ones that are not corrupt like him (like Evenshade and Estulan) - this state of decline is more recent.

Just because the city is in decline doesn't mean they are not advanced in magic or knowledgeable, - the reason for the decline is the demoninc power source, not the state or level or amount of knowledge of their magic.

This is the problem with people's perecpetion that the highborne are rubbish with magic, it is not what the lore says... but their own misguided perception and mis-interpretation largely because they wrongly assume the Azshara zone night elves were shen'dralar and judge shen'dralar magic based on that. Also because they don't see much fancy stuff in there especially after seeing Suramar which some even don't consider night elven (showing you how much lore those "some" do know). I think part of the reason you don't see more in dire maul for 4.0 is more likely that blizzard simple didn't bother to update the city in Cataclysm to better reflect a more vibrant highborne night elven civilization and city, (something i looked forward too) even though the lore of the place is it is near ruin, but it coudl have been updated to better show things as they should do, and this is because their focus was not the night elven civilization for that expansion, and when wow was initially developed in classic era, it wasn't specifically designed as it was later - the design philosphy chagnged from TBC, prior to TBC it was more a repreesnetative idea rather than trying to build things exactly, where you would use your imagination and the text in the quests to supplement what you saw - rather than the visual detail and focus that came later in expansion. Like in Legion, they did a whole new architecture set. If they were to ever rebuild the world, Cities like Dire Maul would be more like Suramar, and ruins in kalimdor more like the ones in the Broken Isles.

Anyway, knowing how things are developed, the reason kalimdor ruins don't look like Broken Isles ones is not because they are somehow less night elven or Suramar/broken isles night elves were more advanced or any nonsense like that, it's because the broken isle ones were much more wholly focused on than Kalimdor, developed over a decade later with more advanced tech, artists with more talent and 10 years more experience and tech than they had, a better development process etc, but in the lore it's the same group of people's handiwork, the highborne night elves.

If we are just talking about Nightborne vs Highborne. Sure, they started out in the same place, but one group has has literally lived off arcane and embraced the eye of Aman'thul empowered Nightwell for 10000 years while the other group spent that time living in ruins while sucking off demons to survive. Which side do you think is gonna be more advanced?

And that's why you are getting it wrong. You are right about the nightborne, but the highborne were not in ruins immediately after the sundering, and didn't fall into ruin because their magic wasn't advanced or was declined or wasn't developing. The lore tells you they continued studying and researching, they definitely advanced in knowledge and skill. And they definitely were not in ruin for 10k years, we know 7k years ago they were thriving, and we know that their city was only declined to a state that allowed Ogres and Satyr to invade 40 years ago (which was when the last of the wards fell and the inhabitants nearly out of pwer could't be bothered too put htem back and instead started peddling arcana knowledge for things they needed to indulge their curisoity. The decline is recent, and the art isn't updated.

Having the eye of aman'thul and the nightwell gave the SUramar night elves power for sure, not more knowledge. It is their studying and research that gave them more knowledge - and you know they advanced becuse blizzard in Gamescom 2015 said they continued advancing in magic - otherwise you wouldn't know whether everything about them was exactly the same 10k years ago, - you are shown some of the advancemnts in soeme of the quest, the city architecture and appearnce isn't one, however knolwedge in chronomancy, and certain spell techniques are shown. But again, they were in limited suroundings, couldn't grow and expand, so whiles they did make advancements too, in their knowledge and spellwork, it wasn't to the city or infrastructure, and we know they usually took ages to update stuff (Occulus shows/tells this a number of times, allowing him to help us infiltrate the wards) - remember the night elven arcane level of advancement is still way in the future for the rest of the magical knowledge state of the world, so even though it looks advanced to us, much of it was like it was 10k years ago. The one advantage the nightborne will have over the highborne will be in chronomancy, not in arcana. If I were to guess, I would say both are roughly equal in arcana with the shen'dralar having a slight advantage in arcane esp seeing that the focus of their story is their feverish research and study of magic over 10k years, while Surmar was more normal, a typical night elf pre-sundering civilization.

Shen'drlaar were not trapped in a bubble although they stayed in the city for other reasons, if they had a power source like the nightwell or well of eternity they woudl have expanded or could have like the blood elves did - (but may have found themselves clashing with the night elves (2 dragon flights and demi gods). The nightborne had the power source to do greater things, but confined in a bubble so , all that power just keeps the lights on, the great spell works that bring more development would not be used because there is no space for them, whereas the shen'dralar did not have the power for that - they both would have been able to refine techinques, discover new theories of arcana, and all sorts of different neat applicaitons - in the nightborne's case you can see how magic is used to take notes for example as the type of advancement made since the sundering. You don't see the improvements of the shen'dralar

Obessesion with something doesn't mean you've advanced. What has indicated the Highborne have made any progress?

Once again I've typed too much, in order to give you a thorough break down, and you're not going to take the courtesy to read it, but instead just assume im repeating myself because it's too long a read and so you will end up asking the same questions again. I'll stop here for now.

And just say that statement you just made does not make sense. They were already advanced 10k years ago. Just because their city has fallen to disrepair, doesn't mean they don't have the knowledge or ability, it just means their city has fallen and they have no power to rebuild or repair. From what we saw of them, they had no desire either, at least the ones with Totheldrin didn't, Estualan and the ones with Evenshade seem to really want to fix things - the majority strike me like dragons or absent minded professors, caught up in their books, advancing theoritical knowledge, techniques, but so fixed in that state of post sundering affairs, they ave no drive or concern to change their surroundings just discover more magical mysteries, so you can bet their knowledge is advanced, and you know exactly why you aren't seeing it from a lore perspective. From d evelopment perspective, it was out of place and not resource wise to spend time updating Dire Maul for cata or revisit it for Legion. It's not like that because their knowledge isn't highly advanced.

you don't have to have a fancy city to be really advanced in knowledge or grow your knowledge, being obsessed about something is a sure way to motivate you to learn more, and grow further in it. It doesn't determine what you would use it for, but with the shen'dralar you are shown them studying and told their advancing. Dragons live in caves and open spaces, yet their knowledge of magic is more advanced than the night elves, especially the blues, and they have no fancy cities or civilizations. You can live in nature and a cave and still be highly advanced in your knowledge. You will see it if you use that koweldge to build a greatcity, especially if you have the power for it, and you won't if you don't, but if the lore tells you they are, then believe it they are and usually they will show it relevant ways. Do not judge the level you fight the mob as an indciation, levels are all arbitary divisions implemented for gameplay, and not for lore, a level 10 mob can be as powerful in the lore as a level 110, and a 110 mob can be less powerful than a level 6 mob.

Also, what makes you say the Nightborne are ahead of the Blood Elves? I'm not saying you're right or wrong I just don't see how you could call it one way or the other.

Deduction from the lore. If the night elf pre-sundering ciilization was more advanced than anything today, and that statement was made in wC3 and again in cataclysm, then we know it was ahead of the blood elves at least as of Cataclysm, and way ahead. The blood elves haven't advanced nearly enough between cata and legion, to catch up to the highborne's level 10,000 years ago,let alone 2 highborne civilizations that continued and advanced their knonwledge in the arcane.

By their own admission the Night Elves will take many years before they can fully forgive and embrace the Highborne again(Wolfheart). These are Malfurion's words, not mine. That's why I was saying the Kaldorei haven't fully accepted the Highborne yet, because they say so themselves.

You're right there, but bear in mind that statement was a few years ago, and you can't say they haven't fully accepted the highborne as of legion.

THe night elf situation is different. THeir problem was with the highborne group not with magic users, or the arcane. The problem with the arcane was pre-WC3 and it wasn't with the arcane itself it was with using the arcane, not because anything was morally evil or wrong about that, just that they feared using it would draw the legion back to the world and they might not be so lucky that time roud, so they dedicated their existence to watching for that and preventing it, instead of rebuilding thier civilization and using magic.

The problem was never with the arcane or arcane users in and of themselves. THey have a problem with abusers, and they dont' like imbalance (i.e. addiction - because they know what it does to the elf) the night elf is more magical than the thalassian elf, he is a more primal elf, the thalassian elf has diminished a little bit in his capacity since the slight devolution, and has been connected to a weaker power source, they've becoeme a bit more human, night elve sare aware what addiction poses to them, and are weary of those who are addicted because of what the addicted did 10k years ago - it's not a problem with magic, or magic users - which is why FArodin cures addiction and still wants to help the nightborne who are not confused wtih the Zin'Azshari highborne who drew the legion.

You also must factor in that the night elves agreed to ally with the highborne and overcome the dislike for that group, some had a harder time than others, but even Malfurion felt it was time, and it was more a matter of forgiving the particular DIre Maul group, but they did that when they worked with Darth'Remar too, so i think people are confusing the night elven/high elf hatred with night elves hating the arcane. The darth'remar group have issues because of when they broke the law on using magic which was perceived as recklessly endangering the world, this has developed a feud between those two groups, not a feud between night elves and magic.

Night elves are described in their introduction as very very magical , and are shown in the nature groups, the priest groups and the arcane groups of today as being at the zenith of each of those fields when they wield it.

So I know this by following the lore, and thinking about it.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The Alliance embassy stuff happens after the Horde embassy stuff though. She goes to Silvermoon in the Nightborne scenario, then mentions going to Silvermoon and being rejected when talking to Anduin.

It would be a very "Queen of the ashes" type deal. "Hey Anduin, I got Silvermoon on the Alliance, I just had to kill a shit ton of civilians and enemy combatants, got the city in ruins again and obliterated the sunwell, I may have driven my race to extinction, but you own Quel'thalas now, yay!"

[Torais]

Give the Alliance an inch, and they want a mile.

First it was: "Give us High Elves!!"

Now it's going to be: "We want ALL THE ELVES!!"

/inb4

I know, right? Anyone would think the elves in question actually were a part of the Alliance for the best of three games and only ended up on the Horde for the most contrived of lore reasons because faction population numbers needed to be rebalanced.

Oh wait.

i mean, she obviously just wasn't told of the human's repeated betrayals of quel'thalas.

vereesa was the one talking to her, she likely doesn't even know about garithos and would lie and paint sin'dorei as traitors in the dalaran incident.

I can think of a grand total of one betrayal by one human. And even then the decision to flee and rebel was made by an unhinged dandy who ended up snorting one too many fel-stones and being disowned by his own people in record time.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I know, right? Anyone would think the elves in question actually were a part of the Alliance for the best of three games and only ended up on the Horde for the most contrived of lore reasons because faction population numbers needed to be rebalanced.

Oh wait.

It's like people who repeat this bullshit somehow think they are lore experts despite being some of the most ignorant guys out here.

Quel'thalas left the Alliance after the second war. The overwhelming majority of the high elves wanted fuck all to do with the Alliance. Not every elf is a humanfucker like the Windrunners.

I can think of a grand total of one betrayal by one human. And even then the decision to flee and rebel was made by an unhinged dandy who ended up snorting one too many fel-stones and being disowned by his own people in record time.

First came Garithos, and then Dalaran's inaction. Blood elves still tried to join the Alliance, and got betrayed again in BC, then came Mop. The Horde has been a less fickle ally for them than the Alliance.

tldr

"MUh high elves"

[Syegfryed]

First came Garithos, and then Dalaran's inaction. Blood elves still tried to join the Alliance, and got betrayed again in BC, then came Mop. The Horde has been a less fickle ally for them than the Alliance.

what happened in tbc?