Honest question

[munkeyinorbit]

Right at the outset, I don't want to hear from people who want the game turned back to prior to 2.0. Got it. This post isn't for you. Please don't derail it. For the rest who want Vanilla WoW, but don't want to lose the quality of life adjustments that have come since (dual specs/quick spec change, LFR/LFM, class balance/changes), why do you want to go back to vanilla?

Vanilla with QoL changes is retail. It is that simple. Retailers just need to wait for Blizzard to add Time Walking for Vanilla stuff. Once Classic starts, you can guarantee that there will be a whole shitload of Time Walking added at the same time. Want to raid AQ40 but you have 13 friends? Not a fucking problem.

- - - Updated - - -

I want to play vanilla for its difficulty.
Where dungeons and outdoor world are challenging.

But I want dual spec or I won't even think going healer or using a healer class. Even if I like healing or the class.
A looking for group option intra server, not the auto one, the one where you chose if you want the guy or not. So I don't need to spam /2.
There was a very poorly designed one, but I can't remember if it was Vanilla or BC
Viable specs, only one tank for raid is complete bullshit. People complains about the limited choices of the new talent tree? Back then your whole class was limited to one role.
What do you say to the guy who wanted to play tank with his druid or pal? We won't take you in raid, you stay in dungeon or you go heal?
Some specs should be completely revamped. Or they should warn people. Like "If you want to play pal, you should play an other game at the same time if you don't want to die of boredom".
Auto aoe loot. It doesn't change things.

Also because I don't want to play with people who will complain about everything. Like the "HO MY GOD THEY PUT AUTOLOOT THAT GAME IS CRAP FUCK YOU BLIZZ I GO PRIVATE".

Vanilla was nice but had a lot of imperfections. It will be better if fixed.

So you want retail. I hear you loud and clear.

[Knolan]

So you want failure to be unpunished? Legion is what you want. Also, before WoW, there were MMOs where you'd lose XP after death, sometimes items. So having to "walk 10 minutes" was nothing. Also 10 minutes is a huge exaggeration.


Again with nonviable specs nonsense. The fact that the spec wasn't meant for raiding, doesn't mean it's not viable. I also find it funny how people never clarify non viable for what. It's like raiding is all there is. WoTLK has take it toll after all.



One problem. Items aren't common place as these weren't welfare epics, it wasn't as simple to get them.

What is the point of that "punishment"? At some point it just becomes a test of patience... you are also punished by having your gear damaged.

As I said, I would like to see changes that would end up creating a different raid team setup, optimized dungeon team, pvp strategies, etc. It is not the case that I don't like the current one (or do not understand it), it is that I enjoy the process of it being formed.

As for the items, I will fully agree that it is a hard problem to solve. Still, t is possible to add them here and there, and also, there are a lot of world/thrash drops.

[Tarba]

So you want retail. I hear you loud and clear.

That's the problem, you need to read.

[Deleted]

and better graveyards (seriously, why would you WANT to walk 10 minutes every wipe on a dungeon).

I don't want to - but it does contribute to a different playstyle. One where you stop thinking about your pulls - where you discuss with your group and use your abilities to your strenghts instead of just zerging like a crazy madman. The fear of constant shitty wiping makes you play differently.

It also makes you think about people you play with. You don't want that annoying idiot kid from trade - because he's not going to have patience to "do it right"

Yes it's annoying and it sucks. But no, I don't want them to change graveyards. Retail has too much of that. I'd like vanilla to be vanilla.

When you guys talk about changes to Vanilla - you all pull stuff from retail like that's the only way to go. You forget MMOs existed before Vanilla WoW. Why not implement some EQ features (negative XP? remove instanced dungeons?) while we're changing stuff?

Or... maybe just let it be Vanilla - like it was at some 1.xx patch? How about that? Too much to ask?

[Knolan]

I don't want to - but it does contribute to a different playstyle. One where you stop thinking about your pulls - where you discuss with your group and use your abilities to your strenghts instead of just zerging like a crazy madman. The fear of constant shitty wiping makes you play differently.

It also makes you think about people you play with. You don't want that annoying idiot kid from trade - because he's not going to have patience to "do it right"

So no, I don't want them to change graveyards.

Have you played Cata heroics pre-nerf?

[Armourboy]

What is the point of that "punishment"? At some point it just becomes a test of patience... you are also punished by having your gear damaged.

As I said, I would like to see changes that would end up creating a different raid team setup, optimized dungeon team, pvp strategies, etc. It is not the case that I don't like the current one (or do not understand it), it is that I enjoy the process of it being formed.

As for the items, I will fully agree that it is a hard problem to solve. Still, t is possible to add them here and there, and also, there are a lot of world/thrash drops.

The point is it was a different development mindset, all of these complaints stem from that. Back then it was very common for MMO's to punish you in some way for dieing. WoW was actually considered soft in that regard and was pointed to by many as one of the reasons the game was too casual.

For those that really really want Vanilla, that's what they are looking for, that old design. All of those things people see as issues are often the things that makes Vanilla what it is.

It was a different era of game design, with a different thought from game developers about how things should work. Those thoughts are why those that want all of the " warts " want then to stay. They often are what helps define that era of game design.

I think there is a very big reason they chose J Allen Brack to head this thing. He worked on SWG prior to WoW, he knows that old school design and thought process as well as anyone, and he also worked on the game back then.

To change things like graveyard spawns and various other things is to fundamentally change the design thoughts of that era, and if you remove those there isn't much point in messing with all of this because you just end up with a Wrath, Cata, MoP, etc. Version of Vanilla.

[Deleted]

Have you played Cata heroics pre-nerf?

Yes. I quit WoW during Wrath because it turned into casual faceroll mush that I hated.
Came back to Cata and totally loved it for those short few weeks/months(?) before everything was nerfed back to shit.

For one glorious moment, it felt a bit like "real MMO" again. Then someone took a dump on it.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

The reason serious wow players want it is because they want to experience the different environment, challenge, and content that can only be experienced in actual classic.
Casuals want it because they think it's hard because they do is in legion is trivial shit and that trivial shit is much more complicated in classic.

Regardless, who ever you are the only way to do this is to revert the game prior to 1.x, so idk if you are trolling or have a learning disability but that's what will be happening.

[Wiedzemir]

Yes. I quit WoW during Wrath because it turned into casual faceroll mush that I hated.
Came back to Cata and totally loved it for those short few weeks/months(?) before everything was nerfed back to shit.

For one glorious moment, it felt a bit like "real MMO" again. Then someone took a dump on it.

That's the thing, isn't it? The RPG crowd is small, the MMORPG crowd is even smaller. As evident by the current game design, many players don't care about such things, what they want is constant progression and gratification. Pre-nerf Cata dungeons weren't the feature dispensing instant gratification to everyone.

[Deleted]

Well it's been 90 minutes and no replies from this crowd. I think it's safe to say everyone who claims to want adjustments is a troll. They don't really want to play vanilla.

Yeah now they have to live on this forum 24/7 and answer immediatly or it becomes an argument to say that they are just trolls who don't really want to play vanilla....

You guys are ready to use all the most stupid arguments to feel good about your opinion. Incredible.

Maybe all those "trolls" know too well how this thread is gonna end up? Maybe they stay on another topic where they answered the question multiple time and got ignored anyway? Never crossed your Zealot mind it seems. Its more complicated than "black or white" "vanilla or legion" so Im not really surprised...

[Knolan]

The point is it was a different development mindset, all of these complaints stem from that. Back then it was very common for MMO's to punish you in some way for dieing. WoW was actually considered soft in that regard and was pointed to by many as one of the reasons the game was too casual.

For those that really really want Vanilla, that's what they are looking for, that old design. All of those things people see as issues are often the things that makes Vanilla what it is.

It was a different era of game design, with a different thought from game developers about how things should work. Those thoughts are why those that want all of the " warts " want then to stay. They often are what helps define that era of game design.

I think there is a very big reason they chose J Allen Brack to head this thing. He worked on SWG prior to WoW, he knows that old school design and thought process as well as anyone, and he also worked on the game back then.

To change things like graveyard spawns and various other things is to fundamentally change the design thoughts of that era, and if you remove those there isn't much point in messing with all of this because you just end up with a Wrath, Cata, MoP, etc. Version of Vanilla.

I understand it, when WoW was launched I was playing RO (which I still play sometimes nowadays on old days servers).

I just don't see what is the point of doing of having that on dungeons, it is pretty much a waste of everyone's time, a time that people could be investing on revisiting their strategies and putting more effort in the next pull, IMO that would add much more value to the experience both on enjoyment and on making people better players (specially new players).

For me the best dungeon experience WoW had was on cata pre-nerf heroics and insanely long corpse runs was not a part of it.

[Wiedzemir]

I understand it, when WoW was launched I was playing RO (which I still play sometimes nowadays on old days servers).

I just don't see what is the point of doing of having that on dungeons, it is pretty much a waste of everyone's time, a time that people could be investing on revisiting their strategies and putting more effort in the next pull, IMO that would add much more value to the experience both on enjoyment and on making people better players (specially new players).

For me the best dungeon experience WoW had was on cata pre-nerf heroics and insanely long corpse runs was not a part of it.

Oh my god, go play Diablo. The game about the absolute maximum efficiency!

This is a god damn MMORPG, waste of time is implied. That's the point.

[Talsar]

Some class balance/itemization changes would be great. And you wonder why? Probably because i don't want to play one of the 4-5 viable specs (not classes, specs).

Bad game design is bad. Sorry, not sorry. You'll pretend it was game perfection incarnate anyway, no matter what answer you get, so i'm not sure why you're asking really. The answers are all pretty obvious if you think about it.

[Jyggalag]

I want Vanilla and I want it to be a roaring success to inspire future legacy options, specifically TBC. I don't want LFR/LFG/Flying/Xmog etc. To me these are not QoL improvements and have not improved my gaming experience but taken away from it.
I want to re-experience WoW the way it was when I first fell in love with it, and what's kept me tied to it after 12 years of playing - the social commitment needed to experience content, and the rewarding feeling that comes with character progression, as opposed to what you'll find in retail today, where epics are handed out like confetti at a new year's eve party.
I'm currently heavily invested in a TBC server and haven't nearly exhausted the content that's on offer. I am free to play at my own pace - that is there are always people and groups running content at every level. You don't get turned away from heroics for not being hit capped etc, and I've formed lasting relationships with players whom I've had positive interactions with. I am becoming a respected member of a small, tight knit, community and the same groups keep inviting me back. There's nowhere near the level of toxicity you'd find with today's match making systems.

That said; having recently re-visited a Vanilla server, there are some immediate improvements needed that are keeping me from fully enjoying the game, including but not limited to: various gameplay bugs, lack of addon support (ElvUI and Weakauras would achieve all I'm after here), the inability to play my favourite class/role/talent combinations (cookie cutter specs for several clear outlying classes that dominate in PvE through the entire expansion), having to loot each mob 1 by 1, having to loot each mail 1 by 1.

These are 'QoL' changes IMO - my life becomes better/easier and the game becomes overall more enjoyable by addressing these issues, and IMO don't take anything away from the core experience.

[Armourboy]

I understand it, when WoW was launched I was playing RO (which I still play sometimes nowadays on old days servers).

I just don't see what is the point of doing of having that on dungeons, it is pretty much a waste of everyone's time, a time that people could be investing on revisiting their strategies and putting more effort in the next pull, IMO that would add much more value to the experience both on enjoyment and on making people better players (specially new players).

For me the best dungeon experience WoW had was on cata pre-nerf heroics and insanely long corpse runs was not a part of it.

But that was the point, the point was to waste your time. MMO's were a timesink, and those kinds of things are how they spread the content out and made it last longer.

I get why today people wouldn't want it, and yes I curse under my breath when I spawn half way across the map, but I also understand that is part of what made Vanilla what it was.

Respawn points, getting knocked off your mount in water, specs not being designed to do everything well, mobs that run and aggro everything, horrible drop rates, badly itemized gear, are all things that help make Vanilla what it was.

I don't exactly like many of those things myself, heck I was one of the ones back then on the WoW forums wanting many of the changes we got, but I also can understand that those changes are what separate TBC, Wrath, Cata, etc. from Vanilla, not just the content.

[Knolan]

Oh my god, go play Diablo. The game about the absolute maximum efficiency!

This is a god damn MMORPG, waste of time is implied. That's the point.

The mechanism is bad, but this is a MMORPG (with bold letters), hence it is ok.

Great argument, I totally changed my mind now!

[cuafpr]

The only reason i want to / will play WoW:classic is if old mounts / items can be farmed and used on retail. There are weapons (corrupted ashbringer...) and mounts that are no longer in the game that I want that just didn't drop for me at the time > beyond that I have little interest in going back to a time when my now main would be regulated to buff bot.

as an aside i suspect it to launch with no type of group finding feature, but around 1-2 years in for it to be added as either the population dies off, people have farmed out NAX, and as a result struggle to fill a 40m roster

[Wiedzemir]

The mechanism is bad, but this is a MMORPG (with bold letters), hence it is ok.

Great argument, I totally changed my mind now!

Of course you didn't change your mind. You never wanted to play an RPG in the first place. That was my point.

[Knolan]

But that was the point, the point was to waste your time. MMO's were a timesink, and those kinds of things are how they spread the content out and made it last longer.

I get why today people wouldn't want it, and yes I curse under my breath when I spawn half way across the map, but I also understand that is part of what made Vanilla what it was.

Respawn points, getting knocked off your mount in water, specs not being designed to do everything well, mobs that run and aggro everything, horrible drop rates, badly itemized gear, are all things that help make Vanilla what it was.

I don't exactly like many of those things myself, heck I was one of the ones back then on the WoW forums wanting many of the changes we got, but I also can understand that those changes are what separate TBC, Wrath, Cata, etc. from Vanilla, not just the content.

Well, this is where we disagree, that is definitely not what made me like it back then.

Of course you didn't change your mind. You never wanted to play an RPG in the first place. That was my point.

I have been playing MMORPGs since 2003, but yes, definitely I don't like the genre because I disagree with you.

[Molvonos]

This is one thing I don't understand. I'm in my late 30s, and when I was growing up, the 'crowd' of my generation constantly made fun of our elders and their 'Golden Age', as far as I understood it. Being that we grew up in the era where there was such a massive technological shunt, compared to the generation before us and certainly the generation after us (beyond cybernetic implants, you're not going to get such a shift like going from landlines to cellphones to smartphones). But when it comes to games, my generation seems to be stuck and fixated on 'the Golden Era' of gaming.

I loved my Nintendo, Master System, Neogeo, 3DO and the like, but they're kinda in the past. I'm one of those individuals that doesn't feel the need to go back for the sake of nostalgia to replay Super Mario Brothers (or just Mario Brothers) because it scratches some strange itch of 'better times'.

When it comes to MMOs, I started my journey playing Everquest. My roomies got me involved and I took to playing a Wood Elf Bard Veeshan worshipper (Cause Dragons). I sat there and farmed out The Overthere, fearing for the Dragoons, or the Ancient Croc, or RoF/RoH. I don't really consider those to be the pinnacle of MMO gaming. People want 'Vanilla WoW' back because of one reason or another. 'Simpler times' maybe, but definitely not harder, like so many people have been inclined to say.

There wasn't anything difficult about taking 15 people to General Drakkisath in UBRS. You simply had shittier gear and horribly optimized, pigeon-holed classes. Nevermind unless you were in a decently sized and geared guild, you waited upwards to 5 hours just to get a group of that size together, hoping at least one of them had a key (which also made pugging near impossible, given attunements),

There's a saying (No, not 'You think you do, but you don't', even though I completely agree with it):

"You can't ever go home again."

Like what has been said many times over years (and a few times in this thread), the fundamental ignorance that pervaded us, as players, when we first picked up World of Warcraft, is gone. The wonder and awe cannot be recaptured and there's far too much information out there to allow you to try and even remotely mimic that. People might hate change (that much is very clear to at least me), but you can't stop it. I guess that's where nostalgia comes from, since we're powerless to halt the march of time and progress.

I digress though. I never had issues with the social aspects of the game, nor the difficulty, but up until a two or so years ago, I did all the most difficult content, seeing as I had the time to do so. Now, i'm pretty content running amok, doing my world quests, fucking around with friends and guildies (or just some randos in LFR), just as much as when I was in a hardcore guild, farming and grinding and more or less smacking my head into the wall for the bare inches of progress that were made.