The Brexit aftermath thread

[Kallisto]

At least UK democracy is representative of UK people. EU democracy, if you can even call it that, represents no one but the self preservation of its own frightened existence.

Yeah UK election where the difference between Labour and Conservatives was 2% in votes but closer to 8% in parliament. Where the left of centre overall got about 56% of the national vote and about 45% of parliament. Very representative. (Note just so your mind can comprehend that last sentance was pure sarcasm)

Meanwhile EU elections which elects the part that has the most power in the EU is done by PR so if a party gets x% of votes they tend to get x% of EU parliament. 100 times more democratic and representative than our elections.

Also this goes into your flip flopping in posts. You were the first to mock those with democratic styles with more representation a few pages back. Now you're having a go at places for supposedly having less representation.

Just admit that either A) you're a troll, B) you don't know what you're talking about or C) You just hate Germans because of some missplaced view based on WW2 which civilized people have got over.

[dribbles]

As far as I know they already asked for a new referendum after the Brexit one and were rejected by May, so I am a bit skeptic on them being given that option soon.
It is funny that you have to Godwin this without any need for it. Maybe you haven't referenced WWII the prerequisite number of times today.
In either event, the answer is much simpler. The German constitution only allows for a referendum when it comes to installing a new constitution, or to restructure the individual German states. It does not allow a referendum for a singular policy issue. Instead, we have indirect systems, which, in this case, have led to the rise of the AfD, which is a party that specifically seeks such an exit. If you were a German you could vote for that party and if enough other people do it, then the resulting government could trigger the article.

Well a referendum on a singular policy would put the question to bed for decades. Certainly if it went the way for the EU or against the AfD would be crushed, at least weakened, as most reasonable people might wish. Look where UKIP are in the UK and they won the referendum here.

I mean, taking your Brexit referendum as an example, I believe that boiling down such a complex issue into an aye or nay question is really the way to go. It does not represent someone who generally likes some aspects of the EU but would want a bit less integration. Or someone who dislikes the EU, but would like to stay in the single market, for example. Those just have to settle for a nebulous 'leave' or 'remain'. I mean if Britain ended up with a soft Brexit, you would rightfully be pissed - since that is not what you voted for. But Steven down the road might have wanted precisely that and might be pissed over a hard Brexit. Is this really more democratic than having a system where you can vote for a party that specifically seeks a hard exit? Policy questions are hardly ever binary ones. You always lose those who do not identify with either extreme on the ballot and the ballots need to be extreme to have a semi-useful result.

The other issue is, of course, that a lot of people do not fully understand what they are voting on. To take your example; the whole populous would need to be sufficiently educated about the pros and the cons of an exit, including impact studies and the like. That is a massive and, daresay, impossible undertaking. You would be fighting existing biases (people voting for or against an exit because they have deeply rooted disdain or love for the EU, not because of the actual impact on them) and, frankly, laziness. Brexit is a very complex undertaking. I doubt that most voters - on either side - even took the time to fully educate themselves on the issue. Instead, they likely just took whatever they were told that fit their bias. That is not me being derogatory to either side. It is just human nature. We like hearing things that confirm our biases and dislike hearing things that do not. If we heard a story that Juncker, May and Boris Johnson drank too much during debates and had a threesome....I think we all would be appalled. But people who think that all politicians are stupid shills would be more ready to believe it than those who believe that those are smart people trying to do their jobs best they can..

General elections are complex issues by their very nature, far more so than a simple yes/no in/out single issue referendum. If the people are too dumb to understand a single issue vote your arguement for denying them that must lead to the logical conclusion the fact that they are too dumb for general elections?

Do away with those as well?

In the last election, the Tory party got something like 36% of the vote, and 52% of the seats.

If you want i can tell you who i voted for in the last EU elections.

How would someone from your country express their wish to leave the EU?

Yeah UK election where the difference between Labour and Conservatives was 2% in votes but closer to 8% in parliament. Where the left of centre overall got about 56% of the national vote and about 45% of parliament. Very representative. (Note just so your mind can comprehend that last sentance was pure sarcasm)

Meanwhile EU elections which elects the part that has the most power in the EU is done by PR so if a party gets x% of votes they tend to get x% of EU parliament. 100 times more democratic and representative than our elections.

Also this goes into your flip flopping in posts. You were the first to mock those with democratic styles with more representation a few pages back. Now you're having a go at places for supposedly having less representation.

Just admit that either A) you're a troll, B) you don't know what you're talking about or C) You just hate Germans because of some missplaced view based on WW2 which civilized people have got over.

Yeah yeah we know you like the flawed system of PR, not going to happen. Imagine how many seats UKIP would have now when they were at their peak? It allows fringe parties to highjack the political process and one trick ponies into a position of power they don't deserve. Look at Germany and the AfD for another example.

[Dhrizzle]

At least UK democracy is representative of UK people. EU democracy, if you can even call it that, represents no one but the self preservation of its own frightened existence.

That's one of the most blatant falsehoods you've uttered in this thread. The UK's Parliamentary democracy is an absolute clusterfuck of issues that make it grossly unrepresentative of the electorate. More people voted left/centre-right in the last election yet we have a right-wing government thanks to a combination of FPTP, skewed constituency sizes and outdated involvement of the monarchy.

If the EU's democratic systems aren't working for the UK perhaps it is because our own systems don't give us any faith in democracy.

BTW as you're so keen on democratic processes, would you support a second Brexit referendum now that some of the more blatant Leave lies have been revealed and people have a better understanding of what leaving entails, or at least a referendum on whether we should have a Norway-style/EEA soft Brexit, maximum-Brexit or something inbetween?

[dribbles]

That's one of the most blatant falsehoods you've uttered in this thread. The UK's Parliamentary democracy is an absolute clusterfuck of issues that make it grossly unrepresentative of the electorate. More people voted left/centre-right in the last election yet we have a right-wing government thanks to a combination of FPTP, skewed constituency sizes and outdated involvement of the monarchy.

If the EU's democratic systems aren't working for the UK perhaps it is because our own systems don't give us any faith in democracy.

BTW as you're so keen on democratic processes, would you support a second Brexit referendum now that some of the more blatant Leave lies have been revealed and people have a better understanding of what leaving entails, or at least a referendum on whether we should have a Norway-style/EEA soft Brexit, maximum-Brexit or something inbetween?

Doubt it will happen, but if a second referendum was called the Brexit side without doubt would increase their victorious margin considerably given the direction of travel that the EU proposes. Careful what you wish for.

[Huehuecoyotl]

At least UK democracy is representative of UK people. EU democracy, if you can even call it that, represents no one but the self preservation of its own frightened existence.

That must be why we have a government that only had the votes of around 40% of the people in charge of everything. Oh, except they aren't, because they need to be propped up by a small group of MPs that represent about 0.5% of the population. If that is "representative" in your eyes, then I would suggest you need some pretty strong glasses. And that is ignoring that we have the House of Lords (entirely unelected) and the queen sitting about the whole thing.

Do you really know nothing about how the system works in our country? Or is misrepresenting facts just part of the persona you've created to spread mischief on these boards?

[Mayhem]

All you have to support this line is a few German polls of at most a few thousand people, easily biased by such narrow selection into that viewpoint.

You have opinion polls about the EU from it's member countries that show quite something different to what i am looking at, care to share them for everyone to see?

[Kallisto]

Yeah yeah we know you like the flawed system of PR, not going to happen. Imagine how many seats UKIP would have now when they were at their peak? It allows fringe parties to highjack the political process and one trick ponies into a position of power they don't deserve. Look at Germany and the AfD for another example.

UKIP in many ways already had a ton of seats in Parliament. There was no difference between UKIP and Euro sceptic Conservatives. Only difference is that with PR they might have had the balls to follow Carswell, with few other types of splits in both Conservative and Labour parties. People like you are just scared of PR because you know the right would never gain hold of Westminster ever again in the UK since they'd never hit 50% of the vote. While the left of centre will consistently get between 55-60%.

Sometimes having the nutters in parliament yelling will be enough for the public to realise that the experiment is a failure.

[Dhrizzle]

Doubt it will happen, but if a second referendum was called the Brexit side without doubt would increase their victorious margin considerably given the direction of travel that the EU proposes. Careful what you wish for.

What fantasy are you basing this on exactly, do you really think the last year has given the people of the UK confidence that our government will be able to negotiate an EU exit that benefits the nation? Oh and don't forget that as time goes by more young people who want their future with the EU come of voting age whilst the older generation who voted to Leave because they have less future to screw up are passing away.

Plus in a vote on how hard a Brexit we want it would only take a tiny proportion of Leave voters who object to political union but want the economic advantages to vote with Remainers for a soft-Brexit and we could easily end up with an EEA arrangement that hardly anyone wants.

[Slant]

All you have to support this line is a few German polls of at most a few thousand people, easily biased by such narrow selection into that viewpoint. But the struggles of Merkel to form a new government would suggest otherwise. Surely a definitive poll of polls such as that a national referendum provides would end any speculation and embolden your beloved EU further in the direction you clearly want it to travel, Germany won't hold one though as there are doubts as to which side would win?

Interesting in your brief statement that you bring up Merkel and Greece, many in the UK would say the main protaganists of Brexit. Even the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation is beginning to blame them in explaining the Brexit phenomenon. Avid remainer and the BBC's most popular radio presenter admitted as much in his christmas interview with your Welt newspaper saying...

'Merkel caused Brexit' Jeremy Vine tells Germany of chancellor's huge impact on vote

English reported version... https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/89...eferendum-vote
Original German interview... https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/....html#Comments

He should know.

Still no one addresses why the EU is so undemocratic to avoid any specific in/out referendum by deflection in what can only be described as some bizarre dictatorial North Koreanesque way. EU running scared of democracy I expect as per usual.

At least UK democracy is representative of UK people. EU democracy, if you can even call it that, represents no one but the self preservation of its own frightened existence.

Merkel caused Brexit? Wait, first it's economics, then it's immigrants, now that you've run out of argument, you fall back on the old "it's ze Germans fault!" mantra? How pathetic.

The reason why it takes this long to form a Government has really nothing to do with the EU. The EU itself isn't actually in question in Germany on any level at the moment. AfD's popularity was more a protest phenomenon than the wish to get out of the EU. That's your wishful thinking speaking there. There are polls on our stance on the EU on a regular basis. And we are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU in all of those.

The EU isn't undemocratic, stop repeating that shit. It's been months of people explaining to you how it isn't. You still claiming this bullshit is pure trolling at this stage. Yeah I don't care, infract me. It is trolling, just like your entire presence and every post that you do. The fact that the EU doesn't do "in/out referendums" is that the EU has no authority nor jurisdiction to call for such referendums. Since the member states are still sovereign nations (ha, the irony of having to point this out to you once more), it is up to them to decide on EU membership according to their constitutions or however they see fit really.

The UK democracy doesn't seem to be representing it's people very well, if you look at the stuff some British people post in this thread.

[Noradin]

Interesting in your brief statement that you bring up Merkel and Greece[...].

He didn't.
Do you just guess at the content of posts you quote or do you add those parts in your head to make your narrative work on yourself?

- - - Updated - - -

'Merkel caused Brexit' Jeremy Vine tells Germany of chancellor's huge impact on vote

English reported version... https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/89...eferendum-vote
Original German interview... https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/....html#Comments

He should know.

Never heard of him, what makes him an expert on the reasons people voted for Brexit?
Does he have some mind reading powers?

[Kallisto]

He didn't.
Do you just guess at the content of posts you quote or do you add those parts in your head to make your narrative work on yourself?

- - - Updated - - -



Never heard of him, what makes him an expert on the reasons people voted for Brexit?
Does he have some mind reading powers?

He's posting the express again. Take it like a Trumper posting Infowars/Brietbart to prove their point. Just this is worse.

[zealo]

Doubt it will happen, but if a second referendum was called the Brexit side without doubt would increase their victorious margin considerably given the direction of travel that the EU proposes. Careful what you wish for.

Id be interested in just where you're seeing opinion polling showing an increase in support for brexit.

Most I've seen show quite the opposite, that support for brexit is continually falling.

[Shadowmelded]

Just some minor fact-checking.

you do know the reason there in the union right ? they went broke with huge debts from the darien affair our shared king who had wanted the union came up with the plan to have Scotland unite with england and england to pay off its debts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

The Lairds lost money, the country wasn't bankrupt.

the scots can do what ever they want. preferable go independent. we arnt keeping them from anything its a union not a conquest its there choice and they chose to stay which is a no brainer considering how many of them are unemployed. how low there polutation is and how much they get from the union compared to england wales and northern Ireland.

Fewer than the UK average?

[Deleted]

I love how decisions of a sovereign nation suddenly need to be legitimized every generation. The absurdity of this suggestion and the implications if it was to be upheld are so staggeringly ludicrous.

I demand a referendum on the "right of the first night". It passed generations since we decided about that!

- - - Updated - - -

How would someone from your country express their wish to leave the EU?

By voting on anti-EU parties. It's really not that hard.

[Deleted]

Just some minor fact-checking.


The Lairds lost money, the country wasn't bankrupt.


Fewer than the UK average?

and one month later
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-41664751

selecting older data just to try and make a point. cute

[Huehuecoyotl]

and one month later
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-41664751

selecting older data just to try and make a point. cute

Ignoring the fact that the link he posted shows that Scotland was STILL below the UK average. Even cuter.

Do you even read the stuff you post? Because if you aren't bothering, why should we?

[Deleted]

Ignoring the fact that the link he posted shows that Scotland was STILL below the UK average. Even cuter.

Do you even read the stuff you post? Because if you aren't bothering, why should we?

goverment dating gah


UK regions
Employment rate1 (%) aged 16 to 64 Change on May to July 2017 Unemployment rate2 (%) aged 16 and over Change on May to July 2017 Inactivity rate3 (%) aged 16 to 64 Change on May to July 2017
United Kingdom 75.1 -0.2 4.3 -0.1 21.5 0.3
Great Britain 75.3 -0.2 4.3 -0.0 21.3 0.2
England 75.4 -0.2 4.3 -0.1 21.1 0.2
North East 72.6 0.8 5.9 -0.1 22.7 -0.8
North West 73.8 -0.6 4.2 0.2 22.9 0.4
Yorkshire and The Humber 72.6 -1.1 5.0 0.2 23.6 0.9
East Midlands 74.3 0.2 4.2 0.3 22.4 -0.4
West Midlands 72.7 -0.1 5.3 -0.5 23.2 0.4
East 77.9 0.2 3.6 -0.2 19.1 -0.0
London 74.5 -0.4 4.9 -0.3 21.6 0.6
South East 79.7 0.1 3.0 -0.2 17.7 0.0
South West 77.6 -0.2 3.7 -0.0 19.2 0.2
Wales 72.8 0.5 4.7 0.4 23.6 -0.6
Scotland 74.9 -0.9 4.1 0.3 21.8 0.7
Northern Ireland 68.1 -0.1 3.9 -1.4 29.0 1.2
Source: Office for National Statistics

England ranks 4.3 Scotland currently ranks 4.1 but this time last year England was 4.8 and Scotland was 5.1 the reason scotlands low rate has hit the news is because it is exceptional the historic rend has been for Scotlands unemployment rate to be way behind the Uk as a whole

but this is by the by, the point still is England dosent want to be involved with Scotland or the EU

[Deleted]

Yeah yeah we know you like the flawed system of PR, not going to happen. Imagine how many seats UKIP would have now when they were at their peak? It allows fringe parties to highjack the political process and one trick ponies into a position of power they don't deserve. Look at Germany and the AfD for another example.

As many as they are supposed too?
You know:

At least UK democracy is representative of UK people. EU democracy, if you can even call it that, represents no one but the self preservation of its own frightened existence.

[Masark]

This is tantamount to state-level sociopathy.

Or as the anglosphere calls it, conservatism.

[Shadowmelded]

England ranks 4.3 Scotland currently ranks 4.1 but this time last year England was 4.8 and Scotland was 5.1 the reason scotlands low rate has hit the news is because it is exceptional the historic rend has been for Scotlands unemployment rate to be way behind the Uk as a whole

What happened to;

selecting older data just to try and make a point. cute

but this is by the by, the point still is England dosent want to be involved with Scotland or the EU

Westminster disagrees.