What is the modern day Chinese (diaspora, mainland, Taiwan...) on the Taiping ?

[sarahtasher]

My old boss said chinese people are juat japanese people who haven't bathed for 3 months

An incredibly helpful comment therein.

[Video Games]

An incredibly helpful comment therein.

Thanks. He was half japanese so he has an idea.

[Deleted]

I'm sure the Chinese government would like to cite them for nationalistic propaganda purposes, but it wouldn't really work since these days the average Chinese person couldn't care less about expelling evil foreigners and is absolutely obsessed with European and Japanese stuff.

When can we start selling them opium again?

[Macaquerie]

When can we start selling them opium again?

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the flow of cheap drugs from China is what's causing the present opioid crisis.

[Independent voter]

Did the US participate in the Boxer Rebellion? I think we did.

Eight-Nation Alliance:
British Empire United Kingdom
Russian Empire Russia
France
Empire of Japan Japan
German Empire Germany
United States
Kingdom of Italy Italy
Austria-Hungary Austria-Hungary
Netherlands

Versus

Yìhéquán (Boxers)
Qing dynasty Qing Dynasty


I guess we did.

[xenogear3]

I am a Chinese.
Chinese (Han) don't get upset about the Eight-Nation Alliance.

First, Qing Dynasty is not a Chinese (Han) government.
This is a lot like, Japanese attacked India while India is controlled by British.

Unlike Japan, Eight-Nation Alliance has no intention to create colonies.
This is nothing like American-Indian wars.

[shadowmouse]

@sarahtasher Wrong forum, really. You aren't likely to find a lot of Chinese posting here. Take @xenogear3 's comments as a reasonable example, but there will be a bit of variance depending on the person's age, what they studied, and where they lived.

Speaking in very general terms, I don't get the impression that the broader context of the rebellions is discussed that much. In terms of how foreign powers are portrayed, the destruction and looting of the Summer Palace still get discussed as a negative; however, Cixi doesn't seem to get much sympathy either.

If this kind of thing interests you, let me recommend Flashman and the Dragon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashman_and_the_Dragon) and generally the Flashman novels. For one look at the period, one that was popular enough to fuel a series of movies, check out the "Once upon a Time in China" movies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_U..._(film_series).

I'll check with friends later in the week and get back to you, but here are some first impressions.

//s//bungee, some guy with an MA in History and a mild background in this period, who lives in the PRC

[Deleted]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the flow of cheap drugs from China is what's causing the present opioid crisis.

No. The opioid crisis in the US is almost entirely due to GPs being keen to proscribe opioids for conditions that really don't require them.

But good job on blaming johnny foreigner, you convinced me. Keep listening for those digging sounds...

[D3thray]

No. The opioid crisis in the US is almost entirely due to GPs being keen to proscribe opioids for conditions that really don't require them.

But good job on blaming johnny foreigner, you convinced me. Keep listening for those digging sounds...

Actually, coming from a healthcare professional, the current opioid crisis is more complicated than that. The match that set the whole thing off was the DEA rescheduling hydrocodone as a C2 in the summer of 2014. The subsequent drop in availability saw many people switch to a more available (ironically) heroin. Heroin distributors looking to increase profits soon began cutting their stock with fentanyl from China. Fentanyl kills in extremely tiny doses.

The DEA isn’t responsible for the demand sure, but they are responsible for cutting off the supply and expecting that people would just deal. They made a bad situation worse.

[Deleted]

Actually, coming from a healthcare professional, the current opioid crisis is more complicated than that. The match that set the whole thing off was the DEA rescheduling hydrocodone as a C2 in the summer of 2014. The subsequent drop in availability saw many people switch to a more available (ironically) heroin. Heroin distributors looking to increase profits soon began cutting their stock with fentanyl from China. Fentanyl kills in extremely tiny doses.

The DEA isn’t responsible for the demand sure, but they are responsible for cutting off the supply and expecting that people would just deal. They made a bad situation worse.

Yeah you're correct its more nuanced. Do you know the breakdown of deaths? How many were hooked by medical practice rather than simple recreational use?

[zealo]

I am a Chinese.
Chinese (Han) don't get upset about the Eight-Nation Alliance.

First, Qing Dynasty is not a Chinese (Han) government.
This is a lot like, Japanese attacked India while India is controlled by British.

Unlike Japan, Eight-Nation Alliance has no intention to create colonies.
This is nothing like American-Indian wars.

Comparisons to WW2 India in the context of Japan isn't all that accurate, tbh.
The Manchu brought about the end of the Ming Dynasty in the 17th century, and from there the Qing would rule until just before WW1.
That's too long a time span to be viewed as a mere military occupation during an ongoing war.

[Mormolyce]

My old boss said chinese people are juat japanese people who haven't bathed for 3 months

infracted - trolling

Yeesh.

Thanks. He was half japanese so he has an idea.

Not to stereotype, but the Japanese do have a reputation for casual racism.

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Did the US participate in the Boxer Rebellion? I think we did.

Yeah it was an early case of 20th Century multi-national intervention in a "humanitarian crisis". Must've been one of the first of its kind.

I am a Chinese.
Chinese (Han) don't get upset about the Eight-Nation Alliance.

First, Qing Dynasty is not a Chinese (Han) government.
This is a lot like, Japanese attacked India while India is controlled by British.

Unlike Japan, Eight-Nation Alliance has no intention to create colonies.
This is nothing like American-Indian wars.

I suspected this might be the case.

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For people who don't know, Qing Dynasty (1636–1912) is a minority race control a majority race (Han).
The ratio is ridiculous, like 100:1
The real Chinese (Han) are not happy.

The Manchu people, right? Or Jurchen?

[ItsRainingMetal]

Yes. What is the mainstream POV of modern Chinese (either from the diaspora, mainland China or Taiwan) over the Boxers ?

Personally I love Underarmour tights.

[xenogear3]

The Manchu people, right? Or Jurchen?

Both Manchu and Jurchen are correct.

In 1125, Jin (Jurchen) Dynasty captured Song Dynasty's capital.
Before Jin can finish Song, Mongol Empire attacked Jin.
In 1234, Jin lost its capital.

Surprisingly, Song Dynasty was weak, but lasted another 45 years.
It ended in 1279.

[Video Games]

Yeesh.



Not to stereotype, but the Japanese do have a reputation for casual racism.

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Yeah it was an early case of 20th Century multi-national intervention in a "humanitarian crisis". Must've been one of the first of its kind.



I suspected this might be the case.

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The Manchu people, right? Or Jurchen?

Well that was the joke.

[Airlick]

The Taiping Rebellion would definitely be unknown except to scholars who study the subject, but I'm pretty sure the Boxer Rebellion has at least some decent name recognition internationally if only because a handful of white people ended up dying.

It was a massive war with some of the highest casualty rates in the history of wars. Just because of the scale it should be known by pretty much everyone remotely interested in history, not strictly history of China/East Asia. I think you're underestimating its recognition.

Surprisingly, Song Dynasty was weak, but lasted another 45 years.
It ended in 1279.

If Song were weak, they wouldn't have been fended off the Mongols for decades, especially considering that conquering China was their main goal, while invasions of Central Asia/Middle East and Europe were side activities at best.

[Macaquerie]

Comparisons to WW2 India in the context of Japan isn't all that accurate, tbh.
The Manchu brought about the end of the Ming Dynasty in the 17th century, and from there the Qing would rule until just before WW1.
That's too long a time span to be viewed as a mere military occupation during an ongoing war.

The Manchus in China would be more analogous to the Mughals, rather than the British, in India. Sure they may have began as foreign invaders, but over time they gradually assimilated and by the fall of the dynasty were pretty much indistinguishable from the Han. It's convenient for propaganda purposes now to claim that China's weakness in the early industrial age was entirely due to being ruled by backwards barbarians, but it's unclear how exactly a native Chinese dynasty would have fared any better against European weapons and technology.

It was a massive war with some of the highest casualty rates in the history of wars. Just because of the scale it should be known by pretty much everyone remotely interested in history, not strictly history of China/East Asia. I think you're underestimating its recognition.

You have to take all casualty figures from Chinese wars with a grain of salt. The Taiping Rebellion was hardly the only mass uprising in Chinese history, and if you take the death tolls from Wikipedia at face value, and then throw in all the figures from droughts, famines, natural disasters, and epidemics, then you end up with such absurdly large numbers that it's hard to see how China could have survived as a civilization to the present day, nevermind becoming the most populous nation on the planet.

[Airlick]

You have to take all casualty figures from Chinese wars with a grain of salt. The Taiping Rebellion was hardly the only mass uprising in Chinese history, and if you take the death tolls from Wikipedia at face value, and then throw in all the figures from droughts, famines, natural disasters, and epidemics, then you end up with such absurdly large numbers that it's hard to see how China could have survived as a civilization to the present day, nevermind becoming the most populous nation on the planet.

It's because China proper (that is Yellow River & Yangtze basins, Sichuan, East and South China) is pretty much the perfect place for human settlement. Huge swaths of fertile land combined with mild climate that allows up to 3 cycles of harvest in a single year in some areas creating such incredible abundance of food is what allowed Chinese population to rebound very quickly after a given catastrophe. The main cause of deaths of children in Europe was malnourishment, from which stems a series of health issues like weak immune system. This was always the case, even in good years, because our lands and climate simply aren't good enough. None of this applies to China. Bad years obviously caused famine, but when they passed, the population would rebuild extremely fast.

Surely, you can't take numbers from 2 thousand years ago for a certain fact, even if China had effectively running bureaucracy 1500 years before Europe thought this could be a good idea, but you can just see the population explosion in China after the Great Famine in 1960 - it grew by some 80 millions within 5 years after the famine. It wasn't due to industrialization of farming or medical advancements - back then China's countryside was still as it was 100 years earlier, and that is still where most of the children were born. It just proves the ease with which Chinese population can rebuild.

[Mormolyce]

The Taiping Rebellion would definitely be unknown except to scholars who study the subject, but I'm pretty sure the Boxer Rebellion has at least some decent name recognition internationally if only because a handful of white people ended up dying.

It gets the occasional mention in fiction revolving around the Victorian era but isn't really well known outside maybe the name.

It's actually a fascinating chapter of history. Seems strange nobody's made a big deal out of it.

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It's because China proper (that is Yellow River & Yangtze basins, Sichuan, East and South China) is pretty much the perfect place for human settlement. Huge swaths of fertile land combined with mild climate that allows up to 3 cycles of harvest in a single year in some areas creating such incredible abundance of food is what allowed Chinese population to rebound very quickly after a given catastrophe. The main cause of deaths of children in Europe was malnourishment, from which stems a series of health issues like weak immune system. This was always the case, even in good years, because our lands and climate simply aren't good enough. None of this applies to China. Bad years obviously caused famine, but when they passed, the population would rebuild extremely fast.

Surely, you can't take numbers from 2 thousand years ago for a certain fact, even if China had effectively running bureaucracy 1500 years before Europe thought this could be a good idea, but you can just see the population explosion in China after the Great Famine in 1960 - it grew by some 80 millions within 5 years after the famine. It wasn't due to industrialization of farming or medical advancements - back then China's countryside was still as it was 100 years earlier, and that is still where most of the children were born. It just proves the ease with which Chinese population can rebuild.

It's an interesting thesis but didn't China hover around the 50-100 million mark for its entire history up to 1700, then broke 250 million in 1800 and spiked to 1.3 billion in the next couple of years? Seems to match the exponential population explosion of the rest of the world really.


http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog...-united-states

Hmm. Maybe there's something to it.

[xenogear3]

It's actually a fascinating chapter of history. Seems strange nobody's made a big deal out of it.

Here is a movie about Eight-Nation Alliance. It has English subtitle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy-dmrf5mwg

There is a TV show about Taiping.

Both rebellions have no "good guys" and heroes.
Don't feel sorry when they lose.