Do you think Tier 21 is still bad?

[mmowin]

Now that Antorus has been out for a while and most DHs have their T21 4 set by now, do you still think this set is trash? Me personally, I thought it was pretty bad until I started learning the rotation now i'm doing anywhere between 1.5k mill and 1.8k mill dps but I feel like if I get unlucky with soul fragments, my dps can plummet pretty fast. What about you all?

[Kreo]

It useful and pull ahead on any fight with more than a single target, or fast target switch, at least for me. But for pure ST fights l still stick with T20.
Also RNG quite annoying, would be awesome if they redesign DA by making it gives double the amount of the soul fragments, if only 1 target is present.

[Stabbyfists]

Once I got the Golganeth's vitality and dumped most of my haste for Mastery I started topping the meters in the fights with T21 no matter what the encounter was.

I first however had to break off my attachment to the Legendary Shoulders and go with the Legendary Helm. You want to reduce the Cooldown of Eye Beam as much as humanly possible which allows you to Eyebeam more and proc your 4p more.

Its RNG based tho still as I traded the auto attack Demon's blade for Demonic Appetite. The reason being, again, we want to reduce the CD of our Eye beam as much as possible and those soul fragments count towards the weapon talent "Feast on Souls"

Also during encounters with adds, Make sure if they are able to be stunned, you stun them with Chaos Nova. Again soul fragments, eye beam. Also make sure you try to get as many killing blows on demon adds as possible. Not only does this cause more souls to appear, but when you absorb them, they will boost your damage by 20% for 15 seconds. (I love High Command, Portal Keeper, and Eonar for this very reason)

The only other advice i can offer is take Blind Fury, Demonic and Demon Reborn and if possible, open up with Eye Beam, THEN Meta and then Eyebeam again. this will extend Meta, AND the 4p bonus early in the fight, as well as leave you with full Fury so you can easily get an early lead on the top spot.

[Shirofune]

The tier is fine... I guess

The spec otherwise, is not. Such amount of RNG is unhealthy.

Topping meters one try and getting ahead of tanks in the next one is something that shouldn't happen ever, specially when our spec has 2 keys to play around.

[Deleted]

The tier is fine... I guess

The spec otherwise, is not. Such amount of RNG is unhealthy.

Topping meters one try and getting ahead of tanks in the next one is something that shouldn't happen ever, specially when our spec has 2 keys to play around.

Quite overdoing it with that statement, aye? I surely admit the differences between tries can be huge since Demonic involves even more rng thant T20 which only had fury gain to toy around with, but barely above tanks is never the case for me and i mostly get 80-90% logs only.

But playing Demonic feels somewhat good while being annoying as hell all the time, it's weird. I mean i am one of those hyperactive melees that always wasd in a fight, but just bc it's a habbit, but being FORCED to is annoying. There is no depth in that, there is no link to the specc in any way it is just bad gameplay and that sucks a lot for me. Just let CS refund the fury and reset all CDs tied to the soul fragment mechanic and i at least would enjoy the specc more, even though the lottery still exists.

[Deleted]

Quite overdoing it with that statement, aye? I surely admit the differences between tries can be huge since Demonic involves even more rng thant T20 which only had fury gain to toy around with, but barely above tanks is never the case for me and i mostly get 80-90% logs only.

But playing Demonic feels somewhat good while being annoying as hell all the time, it's weird. I mean i am one of those hyperactive melees that always wasd in a fight, but just bc it's a habbit, but being FORCED to is annoying. There is no depth in that, there is no link to the specc in any way it is just bad gameplay and that sucks a lot for me. Just let CS refund the fury and reset all CDs tied to the soul fragment mechanic and i at least would enjoy the specc more, even though the lottery still exists.

How isn't that depth? As silly and shallow the way you activate your 'procs' is, you basically get full control over when you recharge fury and reduce CDs. You'd rather it all happened passively and we were plagued by RNG even more if you got multiple procs on your opener or when you keep getting Chaotic Onslaught refunds?

[Deleted]

There is no depth in spaming a/d all the time, it's annoying and getting the stuff the procced soulfragments do passively would not add more rng to it? How does getting rid of the a/d spam to collect the soul add more rng to the mechanic itself? That doesn't make any sense. And the only time you have control over that mechanic is at pull/whenever meta is up, other than that you want to soak those souls anyway, that is no control, that is forced to spam a/d because there is no use in pooling them

[Zasriel]

Yes. T21 is awful still. Because it forces us to play Demonic which is such shit. The fluctuations in the spec just make it so unfun. There one thing DH didn't need was MORE RNG. Last night on M-Imonar I went nearly my entire opener without a DA proc. (I finally got one 10 secs remaining on my EB cd). I was livid.

CB with Shoulders lined everything up nice and perfectly, every 2 minutes and it was boss-murdering time. Now, with all our traits, it's all spread out. FOTI is 1 min, Nem is 2 min, Meta is about 3 min 30 sec. EB is ~40 sec without any procs. It just makes the whole spec clunky. I hate it and wish I could go back to T20.

Now... for mythic+ it is amazing. I've had a lot more enjoyment doing them with t21 and demonic.

But for raiding, it sucks.

[Shirofune]

Quite overdoing it with that statement, aye? I surely admit the differences between tries can be huge since Demonic involves even more rng thant T20 which only had fury gain to toy around with, but barely above tanks is never the case for me and i mostly get 80-90% logs only.

But playing Demonic feels somewhat good while being annoying as hell all the time, it's weird. I mean i am one of those hyperactive melees that always wasd in a fight, but just bc it's a habbit, but being FORCED to is annoying. There is no depth in that, there is no link to the specc in any way it is just bad gameplay and that sucks a lot for me. Just let CS refund the fury and reset all CDs tied to the soul fragment mechanic and i at least would enjoy the specc more, even though the lottery still exists.

I'm not overdoing anything.

It's 25% flat chance. That means you're lucky and you get 5 souls together in 5 CS (and some more in the form of Chaotic Onslaught) providing retarded DPS if you pair them with crits

or,

you get no crits, you get no souls and you're repeating the same DBite -> CS rotation until the RNG gods bless you with something. The DPS we're doing with no crits, normal CS and no fury is laughable.

And yes, above tanks. Dead last DPS.

That's how fun the RNG of the spec is.

[NecroVane]

I think the t20/t21 dichotomy is the strongest case i've seen for demon hunters to have a second dps spec, as we are basically in the same situation feral was in back when cat/bear were the same "spec". Our "spec" is entirely talent based; we have two viable builds that require the exact talent build to function properly, and any deviation just wrecks the spec rather than offering situational or preferential choices. Give us one spec thats similar to the playstyle of chaos blades, with a lot of weapon attacks and powerful burst cooldowns, and another spec that's based around the fel magic side and regularly entering meta form for controllable, short-term burst.

As for Whether t21 is bad, no, it's not bad. It's a much better designed spec than chaos blades ever was, with an actual skillcap and choices to be made. I've actually had several people consult me about low dps playing demonic, something that never happened with chaos blades because of how autopilot it was. However, it has the fatal flaw of being too RNG dependant. The gap between getting crits and soul shard procs, or getting either no crits or no soul shards, is massive.

If demonic appetite had some kind of bad luck protection, say an increasing 15% chance to proc until it procs similar to fire mages with their fireball crits, or was just a baseline 50% chance with a lower impact when it does proc(refunding 20ish fury instead of 35, the eye beam CDR can probably stay the same), it would be much better.

Alternatively, they could just make demon's bite not the worst ability ever, and actually generate a respectable amount of fury(perhaps empower demon's bite during meta to generate much more fury?) so when you're getting unlucky it doesnt feel as awful.

Either way, it's a much more enjoyable playstyle the majority of the time, but has the potential to faceplant spectacularly. It's also not as easy to cheese parses with, since it's not a 2-minute spec like chaos blades was(if the fight ends around 4:30, you're going to parse 98%+, otherwise, nope)

[Happyducky]

I'm not overdoing anything.

It's 25% flat chance. That means you're lucky and you get 5 souls together in 5 CS (and some more in the form of Chaotic Onslaught) providing retarded DPS if you pair them with crits

or,

you get no crits, you get no souls and you're repeating the same DBite -> CS rotation until the RNG gods bless you with something. The DPS we're doing with no crits, normal CS and no fury is laughable.

And yes, above tanks. Dead last DPS.

That's how fun the RNG of the spec is.

I'm honestly happy it's not just me seeing these results. I loved demonic with t20 because the resource return with blade dance made it flow much better (even though blade dance sucks for demonic) that now without it the spec feels like a two button slow RNGfest.

The spec needs more options for resource generation or just more tools to deal with, as the damage it deals feels so out of my hands!

[Shirofune]

I'm honestly happy it's not just me seeing these results. I loved demonic with t20 because the resource return with blade dance made it flow much better (even though blade dance sucks for demonic) that now without it the spec feels like a two button slow RNGfest.

The spec needs more options for resource generation or just more tools to deal with, as the damage it deals feels so out of my hands!

The only thing the spec needs is either a bad luck protection in CS crits and DA procs or having DA inside the Deck of Cards system.

[Baroclinic]

T21 still blows compared to T20. A simple RNG forcing you to move and your haste bonus (and some of your dmg bonus) is hosed. As opposed to T20 it's just pop your blade dance and move on.

[mauserr]

T21 still blows compared to T20. A simple RNG forcing you to move and your haste bonus (and some of your dmg bonus) is hosed. As opposed to T20 it's just pop your blade dance and move on.

Whoa whoa whoa, careful with that opinion, you might just get bashed by a bunch of fucking tryhards and wannabe einsteins calling you braindead for endorsing a relaxed playstyle

[GamerDH]

The only thing the spec needs is either a bad luck protection in CS crits and DA procs or having DA inside the Deck of Cards system.

I couldn't agree with this more. When I think of the t21 spec I view it as very delicate. It is more vulnerable to RNG than any spec we have ever played. We went from a guaranteed damage boost from chaos blades to a 25% CHANCE to get souls which will help us damage boost via eB

I'm really looking for some magic formula (extremely high crit?(60%+) to keeping DA proccing more and ultimately I know its beyond my control. DA should be at 40% at least. Maybe 35 for a compromise.

P. S. My thumb is for the first time calloused from spamming my chaos strike button on my naga mouse. Like chaos blades it was <spam chaos strike> but with demonic its <spam chaos strike> <eybebeam><spam chaos strike even faster!!!!>

- - - Updated - - -

So more on feedback in detail

1) Chaos strike spam (carpal tunnel issues)
2) External issues: We seem to be more vulnerable to outside things more than anyone else. Who chases their extra dps around on the floor? Nobody. Yea its unique... just wish there was more guarantee on DA especially given the following (see #3).
3) Orbs and color: Purple/Green hard to see especially with the numerous Antorus fights that use Green and Purple as a baseline ground floor mechanic, and blue... you would think easier to see.. I almost never see the blue souls in Antorus. Let's not even mention we have to see this though the wall of spells/auras from other players. The actual decision making of "get this soul" or don't isn't really there. You constaly move cause you know you should and maybe some invisible soul will reset your eyebeam some more and give you fury. Thats how I see part of that playstyle. Don't move of course when EB is off CD. That is pretty much it. Now with Mythic your movement choices are sometimes limited so there is that also. You prioritize safety over getting that soul and/or casting EB. That said it shouldn't quite the hassle to spawn souls to begin with
4) Still major lack of community feedback on official channels. I am now in this boat of being silent because I feel like one of the few mythic raiding DH main on there (111 days played). I make a post and you can be certain 12 LFR hero DH players with a grand total of 4 hours played are going to have some sort of input that directly counters what I have to say on the matter. And fine they have a right to say things but ultimately there isn't much experienced voices there on those forums giving feedback at all. I've mentioned this before.

[Shirofune]

I couldn't agree with this more. When I think of the t21 spec I view it as very delicate. It is more vulnerable to RNG than any spec we have ever played. We went from a guaranteed damage boost from chaos blades to a 25% CHANCE to get souls which will help us damage boost via eB

I'm really looking for some magic formula (extremely high crit?(60%+) to keeping DA proccing more and ultimately I know its beyond my control. DA should be at 40% at least. Maybe 35 for a compromise.

P. S. My thumb is for the first time calloused from spamming my chaos strike button on my naga mouse. Like chaos blades it was <spam chaos strike> but with demonic its <spam chaos strike> <eybebeam><spam chaos strike even faster!!!!>

- - - Updated - - -

So more on feedback in detail

1) Chaos strike spam (carpal tunnel issues)
2) External issues: We seem to be more vulnerable to outside things more than anyone else. Who chases their extra dps around on the floor? Nobody. Yea its unique... just wish there was more guarantee on DA especially given the following (see #3).
3) Orbs and color: Purple/Green hard to see especially with the numerous Antorus fights that use Green and Purple as a baseline ground floor mechanic, and blue... you would think easier to see.. I almost never see the blue souls in Antorus. Let's not even mention we have to see this though the wall of spells/auras from other players. The actual decision making of "get this soul" or don't isn't really there. You constaly move cause you know you should and maybe some invisible soul will reset your eyebeam some more and give you fury. Thats how I see part of that playstyle. Don't move of course when EB is off CD. That is pretty much it. Now with Mythic your movement choices are sometimes limited so there is that also. You prioritize safety over getting that soul and/or casting EB. That said it shouldn't quite the hassle to spawn souls to begin with
4) Still major lack of community feedback on official channels. I am now in this boat of being silent because I feel like one of the few mythic raiding DH main on there (111 days played). I make a post and you can be certain 12 LFR hero DH players with a grand total of 4 hours played are going to have some sort of input that directly counters what I have to say on the matter. And fine they have a right to say things but ultimately there isn't much experienced voices there on those forums giving feedback at all. I've mentioned this before.

I gave feedback where I could, the EU forums.

Totally ignored.

If someone wants to replicate it into the US forums they're welcomed to do so.

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17617652419

[Sylvaeres]

The tier is fine... I guess

The spec otherwise, is not. Such amount of RNG is unhealthy.

Topping meters one try and getting ahead of tanks in the next one is something that shouldn't happen ever, specially when our spec has 2 keys to play around.

That's a massive exaggeration and you know it. You don't ever barely end up ahead of the tanks, but I do agree with the fact that there is some RNG in it

- - - Updated - - -

Whoa whoa whoa, careful with that opinion, you might just get bashed by a bunch of fucking tryhards and wannabe einsteins calling you braindead for endorsing a relaxed playstyle

Sounds like you're pretty invested in the conversation hm?

- - - Updated - - -

The only thing the spec needs is either a bad luck protection in CS crits and DA procs or having DA inside the Deck of Cards system.

This indeed would be the best solution possible to the issue the spec faces.

[Shadowfury]

I first however had to break off my attachment to the Legendary Shoulders and go with the Legendary Helm. You want to reduce the Cooldown of Eye Beam as much as humanly possible which allows you to Eyebeam more and proc your 4p more.

You still want to use legendary shoulders, at least on single target fights.

[Deleted]

I gave feedback where I could, the EU forums.

Totally ignored.

If someone wants to replicate it into the US forums they're welcomed to do so.

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17617652419

EU forums are a dead wasteland, any and all threads made on the issue are buried under memethreads that blues happily hop into. Best time for feedback would be once BfA beta forums open up.

Hopefully NA DHs can make constructive feedback, however most people on the forums there see DHs as OP because mobile and bursty...

As for your feedback, keep in mind adding new abilities makes no sense to some. I'm one of such people, I don't believe we need more while we barely use the ones we have. More interactions, interesting talents, more focus on momentum and using mobility as a resource, these would do the trick though. But only if momentum is made easier to have all people that were unable to use it properly before. And I don't mean easier as by stacking the duration, that'd actually be a bad move seeing as DHs can burn out of fury in an instant with poor RNG, and damage boosting bites would be a joke.

[Shirofune]

That's a massive exaggeration and you know it. You don't ever barely end up ahead of the tanks, but I do agree with the fact that there is some RNG in it

Let me requote myself.

It's PURE RNG. What your experience is might not be the one I'm facing.

I had tries in Mythic Kin'garoth in which I was toping after 3+ minutes with 2.3M DPS and in our kill I ended with 1.87M DPS.

That difference is ridiculous when really, all I'm doing is spamming 3 keys at different intervals.