A massive faction imbalance problem in raiding

[Zazajin]

On the EU isn't it something like 60% Horde 40% Alliance? My Realm's 64% Alliance and 36% Horde.

[judgementofantonidas]

https://realmpop.com/eu.html says otherwise.

6.255 million characters at 110. 51% horde 49% alliance.

Top progression isn't overall playerbase.

It's the only playerbase that counts.
The rest are just revenue makers.

[HuxNeva]

On the EU isn't it something like 60% Horde 40% Alliance? My Realm's 64% Alliance and 36% Horde.

51.4% Horde 48.6% Alliance EU overall.

The most outspoken Horde favoring in Europe are the Portuguese realms (58.3% Horde), while the most Alliance leaning are the Russians (50.9% Alliance)

[ls-]

Racials aren't the reason why significant majority of people goes Horde, only 5ish guilds in the world care about advantages racials provide and some of them are even willing to pay money for race change in the middle of progression. But your average raider, goes where majority of raiders is, many people also blindly copy what top guilds do, if big guys play Horde, they'll play Horde too. Something like this happened w/ Ally and PvP in the past, at some point many big PvPers rerolled Ally, their fans and many serious PvPers did pretty much the same.

The only thing Blizz can do to address this "issue" is to allow cross-faction interaction/play, any other approach will either be ineffective or lead to Ally becoming the raider's faction again.

Identical racials or removal of racials won't work. One of two factions will end up being raiders' choice regardless.

[Niwes]

tbh: dont know what ppl even discuss here.

OP is right and this problem is known and existing since years and in thousands of threads. the only thing i even can disagree with OP is, that he is a bit late to the party.

ppl moaning about horde pve and alliance pvp stuff since over a half decade. and its a shame on blizzards side, not being able to fix such trivial stuff in so many years.

to quick fix it, you even dont have to be cosmetical. it would be enough when you just give both factions exact the same racials. if we put race choosing aside and just want to fix faction imbalance stuff for the raiding or pvp community. ofc besides the not impossible solution, to just really balance/fix it.

in short: OP is completely right and its a shame.

and:

NOBODY is talking here about non raiding overall population. learn to fukin read before you all posting your 51/49% population shit! this thread is talking about raiding population in organized HC and above raiding. damn.

[Aggrophobic]

Taking a quick glance at Wowprogress, one has to wonder is it at all in Blizzard's head something needs to be done? Do they honestly think all those top players (and most of the raiding community in general) is Horde because they necessarily enjoy being Horde? Now, I'm not dissing anyone who genuinely is a Horde player and likes it, but I'm gonna tell you that all those raiding guilds aren't necessarily Horde for the sake of being Horde. They just have OP racials that are, in some cases, mandatory for raiding.

My guild has an acquintance who is currently trialing in Scrubbusters, a top alliance guild that recently killed Argus mythic, and they will go Horde next expansion. Libertad, another guild that is on the front page (a top Ravencrest guild), aswell. There are only 4 realms on EU that are above 10k as of writing this post (Thursday 17:15), 1 of which is German, 1 of which is Russian, so both are a no-go for me. Compared to 7 such realms for Horde, 2 of which are Russian, and ALL OF WHICH are very good quality PvE wise, not to mention a bigger pool of players in general. I currently play on Ravencrest, which is pretty much the only server worth being on if you are an Alliance raider. There is also Silvermoon, but the server progress and quality PvE wise is much lower (sorry Silvermoon players, not dissing just telling statistics).

This leads me to conclusion that very soon Alliance is going to be a dead faction. Something HAS to be done about these fucking racials. Again, you cannot tell me that 70% of the playerbase just happens to enjoy Horde more, especially since Alliance's storylines, architecture have often been envied by even devoted Horde players. I'm sure that SOME Horde players would enjoy playing Alliance more, but they just don't want to go back to the faction where there are less people to recruit, less populated realms (except for RC and SM) and no OP racials.

Blizzard, if you're reading this, please do something about this. I really want to continue playing my Alliance characters, but I feel like you're not going to bring all of those people that left for Horde back, or dissuade good guilds from transferring just by giving us Void Elves and Kul'Tiras in the next expansion, while keeping everything else the same.

Not sure if anyone explained this already but if one faction has a tiny advantage then the top guilds will move to that faction, obviously.
Thing is, if they do then all of their fans and wannabies follow even though the advantage might be som small that the doesn't really matter.

Now, there are cases such as KJ befor the nerfs where one faction actually has a pretty big advantage but thats just poor encounter design by Blizzard (ToS you sucked). Overall, I'm sure most guilds would do just as well as alliance. Another thing is that few will actually bother going back to alliance unless they get a large enough buff to actually make top guilds switch so the players most intrested in PvE will be found on the horde side. Fixing that will take making alliance the "OP" faction though and we're back where we started but just the other way around.

My guild did switch becuase of PvE reasons and maybe the difference was larger a few expansions ago when we moved over. Still wish we stayed alliance. I miss my humans and the difference is not large enough today that it really matters (again, unless they mage more KJ-fights).

[ls-]

Not sure if anyone explained this already but if one faction has a tiny advantage then the top guilds will move to that faction, obviously.
Thing is, if they do then all of their fans and wannabies follow even though the advantage might be som small that the doesn't really matter.

Even if there's no advantage because there's no racials at all or they're identical. Raiders will end up choosing one faction, newer raiders will go where the majority is. It's just better for raiders to be consolidated in one faction because it improves guilds' ability to recruit people and, well, raid

Spreading between two factions is counterproductive in this scenario.

[Deleted]

Have you considered the possibility it might be a personality issue?
one of my friends in my guild just started playing horde for the first time in 10 years and won't shut up about how nice people are compared to the alliance.
you know considering 60% of raiding is having a group of people that don't have serious animosity towards one another.

[Aggrophobic]

Even if there's no advantage because there's no racials at all or they're identical. Raiders will end up choosing one faction, newer raiders will go where the majority is. It's just better for raiders to be consolidated in one faction because it improves guilds' ability to recruit people and, well, raid

Spreading between two factions is counterproductive in this scenario.

Pretty much, yes.

[MrLachyG]

You are wrong, and that's okay.

- - - Updated - - -



Ok bro.
/10char

ok bro, quit fucking trolling and fuck off. you're wrong, you've been proven wrong, you know you're wrong and have no counter argument so just fuck off

[Synthium]

ok bro, quit fucking trolling and fuck off. you're wrong, you've been proven wrong, you know you're wrong and have no counter argument so just fuck off

Ok bro. I'm on my way.

[Kauko]

They just have to remove all stat/cc racials... Except from Pandas, they can be both factions. All problems with balance in pvp/pve... It all began just because of that annoying racial system. I dont know why they don't change their mind. With racials gone, I bet people would play many different races on both sides.

[Ravingmad]

You are wrong, and that's okay.

I've just asked Sco <Method> about it, and the gain is very minimal. HL guild could aim for it to get that little 0.1% advantage, but its not game breaker at any point and not required for Top guilds to progress (can help, but very hard to evaluate). As skill/dedication > racials.

[Seneca]

I've just asked Sco <Method> about it, and the gain is very minimal. HL guild could aim for it to get that little 0.1% advantage, but its not game breaker at any point and not required for Top guilds to progress (can help, but very hard to evaluate). As skill/dedication > racials.

I think a big part of the issue concerns the "utility" racials rather than the dps/hps oriented racials.

E.g.:
Some horde "utility" racials:
Arcane Torrent: You can AoE silence/interrupt for 2/3 seconds. In high M+ you can prevent an ENORMOUS amount of damage with that skill, let alone prevent a wipe to begin with.
Same with War Stomp.

Now, some alliance "utility" ones:
Gift of the Naaru: 20% hp over 5 sec every 3min. Arcane Torrent can interrupt 5 spells which hit for 50% of a dps healthpool (every 1.5min).
Escape Artist: can self-dispel a root effect.
EMFH: can self-dispel a stun.

Personally I think they belong to 2 completely different leagues of power. They are not even close.

I think the issues are 3 (can't think of any other issue for now):
1. Power level (Not even close. Arcane Torrent can interrupt 5 spells which hit for 50% of a dps healthpool (every 1.5min), Gift of the Naaru heals for 20% hp after 5 secs every 3 min).
2. Always useful vs situational. (If noone roots or stuns you, Escape Artist and EMFH are useless, you can clear a whole instance without getting affected by roots or stuns. Compare that "work vs any silenceable/interruptable enemy in the whole game" (talking about Arcane Torrent).
3. Skill expression. With this term I mean how much your skill impacts the outcome of the use of your racial. For example, with Gift of the Naauru, no matter what, you are going to get healed for 20% of your hp every 5 sec. With Arcane torrent, you can interrupt 5 deadly spells which hit for 300% of a dps healthpool.

My 2c.

[taishar68]

@Synthium: I accept that there is a disparity between the factions as it relates to high end raiding; I’ll accept that’s a growing problem. However, being objective, you can only assume that the driving force behind the disparity are horde racials. There is no proof to view, because it is accepted that racials offer a very small dips gain, not nearly enough to be the major, if not sole, reason to switch.

If you wanted to argue that the racials were indeed the cause for the disparity, we’d need to see a substantial increase in DPS between the two factions using the exact same gear, same rotations, talents, gems, etc. Even if Simcraft showed a major increase in DPS for, say trolls or Orcs, it still doesn’t take in personal skill, or even RNG.

So you can assume that the racials are the issue, and you might be right, but we have no proof to support that thesis. Which invalidates the argument and changes it from fact to opinion, which you are, of course, entitled to.

[Florida Man]

Taking a quick glance at Wowprogress, one has to wonder is it at all in Blizzard's head something needs to be done? Do they honestly think all those top players (and most of the raiding community in general) is Horde because they necessarily enjoy being Horde? Now, I'm not dissing anyone who genuinely is a Horde player and likes it, but I'm gonna tell you that all those raiding guilds aren't necessarily Horde for the sake of being Horde. They just have OP racials that are, in some cases, mandatory for raiding.

My guild has an acquintance who is currently trialing in Scrubbusters, a top alliance guild that recently killed Argus mythic, and they will go Horde next expansion. Libertad, another guild that is on the front page (a top Ravencrest guild), aswell. There are only 4 realms on EU that are above 10k as of writing this post (Thursday 17:15), 1 of which is German, 1 of which is Russian, so both are a no-go for me. Compared to 7 such realms for Horde, 2 of which are Russian, and ALL OF WHICH are very good quality PvE wise, not to mention a bigger pool of players in general. I currently play on Ravencrest, which is pretty much the only server worth being on if you are an Alliance raider. There is also Silvermoon, but the server progress and quality PvE wise is much lower (sorry Silvermoon players, not dissing just telling statistics).

This leads me to conclusion that very soon Alliance is going to be a dead faction. Something HAS to be done about these fucking racials. Again, you cannot tell me that 70% of the playerbase just happens to enjoy Horde more, especially since Alliance's storylines, architecture have often been envied by even devoted Horde players. I'm sure that SOME Horde players would enjoy playing Alliance more, but they just don't want to go back to the faction where there are less people to recruit, less populated realms (except for RC and SM) and no OP racials.

Blizzard, if you're reading this, please do something about this. I really want to continue playing my Alliance characters, but I feel like you're not going to bring all of those people that left for Horde back, or dissuade good guilds from transferring just by giving us Void Elves and Kul'Tiras in the next expansion, while keeping everything else the same.

I actually Googled "acquintance" because I thought you were being a douche using fancy words I never heard of. When I realized it was a typo and you meant acquaintance, I felt humbled and your post made so much more sense. I apologize.

OT: High end raiders will do whatever they can to squeeze out every advantage possible. This means bringing a specific comp, requiring specific legendaries, demanding specific talents, and of course wanting certain racials.

Blizzard said in the past that they're okay with this because it's such a small fraction of the player base, and honestly, there is nothing they can do to prevent this.

As others have said, overall the population is equal. So it's fine as it is. If you want to do the highest apex of content, you have to sacrifice the time, money, preference, and effort to satisfy those criteria listed above. That's all there is to it.

[corebit]

As others have said, overall the population is equal. So it's fine as it is. If you want to do the highest apex of content, you have to sacrifice the time, money, preference, and effort to satisfy those criteria listed above. That's all there is to it.

No it's not fine. Do you do any Mythic raiding even casually or >15 M+ keys? If your guild is Alliance and does any Mythic content at all, ask your recruiter how he fares getting viable candidates. It's 10 times easier looking for them on the Horde.

The overall popuiation doesn't mean jack squat, as most of that population simply does casual solo questing. And in solo content it doesn't matter what the population % is.

The effect is snowballing, more and more Alliance Mythic raiding guilds switch Horde, the less candidates you will have every day. Pretty soon Alliance will be stuck doing just Normal and Heroic content at best.

[prizminferno]

the faction imbalance for pve will disappear if they remove the OP belf silence

[ls-]

the faction imbalance for pve will disappear if they remove the OP belf silence

It won't. Even if literally everything about races is cosmetic, it's just better for people who do harder content to be in one faction w/ others because it increases the pool of players to do said content with and thus it increases the chance of success.

Basically, birds of a feather flock together. So in the end majority of people who're more serious about raiding or M+ will go to one faction.

That's actually the issue pretty much all games w/ 2 or more factions have. Cross-faction play would fix it though, but I'm not sure that majority of people and Blizz themselves want it.

[MiseryIndex]

Obviously, the only solution to this imbalance is to wait for someone to say "use hero" on voice comms, and then gkick and report them repeatedly until they xfer back to the alliance.