Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
  1. #41
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Обединени социалистически щати на Америка
    Posts
    28,394
    Quote Originally Posted by Aitch View Post
    It must be great to live in a world so simple, where your enemies are so easy to identify by anything that doesn’t have a face.

    No company will maliciously destroy a community. It will close a plant for no reason other than it no longer makes fiscal sense to operate.

    Unions on the other hand will actively encourage workers to strike with the promise of more money. Pandering to the greed of individuals.
    Never said that, but you really think the big companies don't put profit above all? Its funny you think unions are purely for greed when its companies that are founded purely for profits.

  2. #42
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Resident of Emerald City
    Posts
    10,944
    Quote Originally Posted by McFuu View Post
    You're missing the point. If I'm a better worker than everyone else, the union does nothing for me. "If you cause an incident" why would you be causing incidents if you are a good worker...

    Like I said in my first sentence, not all unions are created equal. I've seen absolute shit unions and I've seen somewhat fair unions. But the industry and company will largely decide if a union is even necessary.
    Incidents happen no matter how good of an employee you think you are. Everyone has a mishap in their careers.

    If you're a good worker you and those like you benefit as a unit. You have the numbers that say we did this as a whole...we deserve this because of it. As opposed to what has become the Company standard outside of unions where raises are given to who you know not what you do.

    The industry will decide if a union is necessary. A majority of Companies don't want anything to do with unions. Especially in fields they can not easily off-shore. There's a reason that retail stores and food service industries push all the non-union propaganda on new hires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitch View Post
    Unions on the other hand will actively encourage workers to strike with the promise of more money. Pandering to the greed of individuals.
    Do you actually know what causes a strike and what it takes to actually get to that point? Strikes are caused by failed mediation hearings between the Union and the Company when the Company violates the Collective Bargaining Agreement. The two have three chances to iron out their differences before the National Labor Relations Board gets involved. If a Local is striking its because the Union has decreed that the Company is violating the contract it agreed to.
    Last edited by Captain N; 2018-01-01 at 06:09 PM.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

  3. #43
    Titan
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    America's Hat
    Posts
    14,128
    We need to establish more unions in an ever growing wealth gap among big corporations and their employees and those in management. In particular in manufacturing skill trades, those are the jobs that unions need to exist to protect the wages for, because those people are highly educated and highly skilled workers with plenty of years of training and experience that should be getting paid middle class wages. I am talking about people like millwrights, electricians, machinists, welders, etc. Why is it that only government crooks get unions these days and private industry doesn't have them? Certainly unions have their pro's and con's, but a lot of that is because of how the companies bargained with the unions.
    Last edited by Rennadrel; 2018-01-01 at 06:34 PM.

  4. #44
    I was part of a union in a factory. They were very hit or miss.

    The Good:
    1) Stable wages. I always knew how much I was going to be making, when my raise was going to happen, and I didn't have to worry about the amount of money I was making stabilizing indefinitely.
    2) Didn't have to worry about getting let go due to the company being slow. It went by seniority, so the people that had been there the least amount of time would get let go before me.
    3) They couldn't play favorites when it came to overtime. Again, seniority. This meant they couldn't train people on one station only and make just that person come in. The amount of drama and salt this would have caused would have been awful. They really wanted to do this, too. Not only would this be favoritism, they would've been able to "punish" people that didn't want overtime by throwing them on a station that needs to work.
    4) Minimum hours. Our union had an agreement in play that made it so the company could not mandate us more than 50 hours a week over a six-day period. Since there were three shifts, it was usually eight hours a day, six days a week. The company pushed the union for months to change this. We kept having "Emergency union meetings" about interim contract changes. The company wanted to make us work 60 hour weeks over 7-day periods with no additional compensation. Seriously.
    5) Higher labor grade jobs were rewarded by seniority, not by favoritism.
    6) Once you had decent seniority solidified, you could choose what shift to be on and the company couldn't tell you no.

    The bad:
    1) Favoritism was still a thing. Don't like an employee? Make him do the hardest things imaginable, or the most boring things imaginable. They could also just refuse to train employees, putting significantly more stress on the people that are trained because they would have more responsibilities even if the pay was the same. Union was on our side, but HR said there wasn't anything illegal about it.
    2) Supervisors/inspectors weren't allowed to do anything that the union members could do. This meant they didn't know how to do the jobs. This was so if we went on strike, they couldn't just make office staff fill the gaps until they got new employees. This meant supervisors couldn't help with job related questions. It wasn't a good system but I guess I understood it.
    3) We were paid so mediocre that going on strike wasn't an option for most. People would agree to awful contracts because they were afraid of losing a weeks worth of money. It was incredibly sad to see.
    4) If the company really wanted someone fired, the union couldn't do anything. Stupid excuses were still made to walk people out.
    5) If the cleaning guy saw parts in the way, they had to get a union member to move them. They weren't allowed to interact with materials the union uses. RIDICULOUS rule, but lol.
    6) "Team play" wasn't allowed. Example: I'm in stock, person A is in assembly. It's my job to feed him parts. If I get called away to do an assignment, person A can't walk outside and take the parts I left out the door for him. He has to go on downtime until I get back, because he isn't allowed to feed himself parts. We protested this to death but the union was firm on it. "If it's not in your job description you don't do it."
    7) A chunk of money comes out of your paycheck each week to "pay" for the union.

    So yeah, they really did have their perks...but a lot of the time it wasn't worth it.
    Last edited by Zafire; 2018-01-01 at 06:59 PM.

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Waycross, GA
    Posts
    8,226
    Quote Originally Posted by spdr View Post
    I agree with this first and last part. But I worked in a shop with a guy that would breath down our necks. He didn't want me using squares to make fitups, because he trusted the bubble and it's faster. It's crazy how many welds went out of there with bad tie-ins on the roots but because they're just low pressure chillwater lines it doesn't matter. No xray and no visual inspections.
    We deal in tank cars so the weld has to be perfect. Sonogram along with magnaflux testing after stress relieving the area.

    Before this job I had another job that only wanted "good enough." It was a boat place where I TIG welded for $10 an hour. It didn't pay good but I needed something to hold me over while I finished Tec. School. They didn't care about a good weld, as long as it didn't fall apart they were happy. Mostly fuse the metal together without filler. I was happy to leave that place.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire View Post
    So yeah, they really did have their perks...but a lot of the time it wasn't worth it.
    The thing about Unions is that they don't benefit the individual in the short term, but it benefits the collective in the longterm by giving them a voice that can be heard.

    I agree with your "bads" list, though... while I prefer the "political voice and leverage" aspect of Unions, and feel that justifies their existence, the truth is, like any worker, they also want to protect their jobs. "If its not in your job description, you can't do it." sucks... but it also provides a black and white line. The truth is, if an employer really wanted that "not in your job description" done, they'd be paying someone for it... or have it added to your job description, with the additional compensation it demands... but when they don't its not really your fault.

  7. #47
    Having a union is a pain in the butt. Not having one is worse.

    The next time you walk into your company's HR department, realize the only reason you're walking out of there alive is they don't want to pay to have the carpet cleaned.

  8. #48
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    We're talking labour personal unions (as in, the union to protect workers rights), right? And not trade unions (as in, co-agreement on vocational skills and profit).
    in the UK a trade union is a union. what you call a trade union is a merchant guild (most of which are gone because of monopoly laws but some still exist as charitable organisations like the Guild of merchant traders)

  9. #49
    Deleted
    Pro union.

    Could have posted a billy bragg song

  10. #50
    Deleted
    there's a kinks song from the same period with the opposite view of unions called "Get Back in The Line"

  11. #51
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,895
    Employers, by the nature of being employers, have collective negotiating power already.

    To compete properly with that, workers need comparable negotiating power. The two paths to get that are through unionization, or through government worker support (WAY beyond what you see in the modern world, we're talking the government setting wages by industry/position, and so forth, not just minimum requirements).

    Quote Originally Posted by INVASMANIXOXOXO View Post
    Mixed feelings, they cause inefficiencies in the market but union members seem to do overall better than the average worker
    What, exactly, do you mean by "inefficiencies in the market"?

    Because if you mean "the employer ends up paying more in wages", that's not an "inefficiency", that's a predatory employer having their behaviour curbed by market action. Because employers aren't who the markets serve, in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsybob View Post
    Complete scam. All they do is strike, especially in things like transport and hold the general public hostage so they can have nicer pay and pensions. All those Union membership fees can buy the Union bosses nicer cars too.
    Yeah, how dare employees demand reasonable compensation for the work they do. The horror.

    Strikes happen when employees aren't being compensated sufficiently, and their employer won't up their pay. You're literally complaining that people might want to be paid properly, and might cooperate to ensure they get it, and walk off the job if they aren't getting paid enough. Seriously?


  12. #52
    Union's are needed and ill personally avoid working a job that doesn't have a Union if possible.
    Check me out....Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing, Im └(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┘┌(-.-)┐└(-.-)┐ Dancing.
    My Gaming PC: MSI Trident 3 - i7-10700F - RTX 4060 8GB - 32GB DDR4 - 1TB M.2SSD

  13. #53
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    37,509
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Union's are needed and ill personally avoid working a job that doesn't have a Union if possible.
    You should avoid jobs without a union. Luckily it is by law in Denmark that positions must have unions but it isn't a law that you - as a person - must be part of it.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  14. #54
    The Patient
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    346
    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    We deal in tank cars so the weld has to be perfect. Sonogram along with magnaflux testing after stress relieving the area.

    Before this job I had another job that only wanted "good enough." It was a boat place where I TIG welded for $10 an hour. It didn't pay good but I needed something to hold me over while I finished Tec. School. They didn't care about a good weld, as long as it didn't fall apart they were happy. Mostly fuse the metal together without filler. I was happy to leave that place.
    I'm in a refinery now, 100% xray.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •