Future Allied Races

[Deleted]

Jesus Tapdancing Christ. Are you -serious-?

The Tauren, Trolls, Forsaken, Pandaren, and Goblins are not invaders. They're ALL fucking native to the world. The Orcs are Extraterrestrials, I'd give you that, but they haven't been "Invaders" since WC2. In WoW they are -absolutely- not "Invaders" if you're trying to limit it to WoW rather than previous games.

And I already spoke about how the Alliance were the aggressors in:
Alterac Valley
Warsong Gulch
The War of the Cataclysm that lasted through Pandaria

But let's go ahead and up the ante ONE MORE TIME!

Genn Greymane -explicitly- turned against his High King's Orders to launch a Sneak Attack on Sylvanas in Stormheim. His stated goal was to kill her to avenge his Son and Varian. He attempted assassination while in Peacetime.

During the life of WoW, the Alliance has, consistently, been shown to be the Aggressor just as often as the Horde.

As to a Humanist view of things: Your philosophical viewpoint is, at best, flawed. Specifically that you're disgust of undead and value judgement that they would be "Better Off" in their graves clearly springs out of a cultural bias against death and general ickiness rather than an actual logical view of Undeath as a construct. In Humanist philosophy there is no heaven, no afterlife, and thus logically Dead is Dead. Unless you're intent on arguing that Existence is not of a higher human value that Non-Existence, you must agree that the ability to keep existing, aware and intelligent as you were in life, in a persistent consciousness is better than the alternative. And if you ARE trying to argue that Existence is not inherently of a higher human value than Non-Existence, I'll ask you to just stop pretending you understand Humanism.

As to "The Values of Humanity, Honor, and Decency" step the fuck off, dude, 'cause you clearly don't know enough about the SUBJECT to discuss those things. You might as well be throwing out business buzzwords for all they mean within the topic at hand.

If Russia were to invade the United States, Fought a Bloody War, and came to a Peace Agreement that allowed them to retain part of the United States as Russian Territory, and some time later the US decided to attack that Russian Territory: Yes, the Russians would be the Victims. Because the Peace Treaty itself outlined an agreement between the two nations as to where their Border Lies.

A Better Example would be France and Germany. Each of these nations fought HUNDREDS of Wars over the course of Human History, and at the end of each war, their borders would grow or shrink based on which lands were agreed belonged to the nations at the end of the current War. Sometimes pieces of what is today France became part of Germany. Sometimes the other way around. And whoever decided to break the treaty is, in the end, the Invader on the other.

If through Time Travel Technology we could go back to the first time the two nations fought and learned that it was France that invaded and conquered a part of Germany and we labeled them 'Invaders' it would not subsequently make them responsible for all other acts of aggression between themselves and Germany. It wouldn't make the German Invasion of France during WW2 a justified act of 'fighting off invaders' for example.

What "Basic Values" of Humanity am I disregarding, here, Nemmar? I'm SUPER KEEN to know which ones you perceive as being missing.

In short: There have been times of Peace between the Horde and the Alliance. There have been declarations of the End of Wars with lands left in the hands of either side. If either side breaks those agreements, attacks the other, they are the aggressor of that conflict, regardless of what happened in a previous fight/war/etc.

Well... the first point is outright lies, so i'm done debating about that. You even have the nerve to accuse me of tapdancing.

The second point is utterly disgusting and there's something very broken in you. The humanist problem is VERY much on your side. You accusation is completely ridiculous born from a statement you just made up. Existence is worthwhile in the form we know it now. Existence in the form of an undead that wants to kill it's family and all the living (forsaken) is not a legitimate existence. It's an aberration.
If your existence is justified by wanting to take the lives of others, your existence is not justified, no. Your humanism starts and ends with your existence. If you want to take others, you lose your right.

Your accusations are petty just cause you have your head too deep into RP to think straight.

Oh now theres a peace treaty signed by the frostwolf to have Alterac? Pretty cool made up lore there. Nice BS!

In old times, borders weren't even clear i'll let you know. Still, no one gives land willingly. Such naiveté.
It's funny that you bring up the case of Germany invading France in WW2, cause that is a perfect example of why you are wrong. Germany occupied France. They had government support. Therefore the allied were very wrong in taking lands from the poor nazis. This is you logic. IT STINKS!

The values of humanism you are ignoring are right to existence. Your beloved Orcs and Forsaken and genocidal maniacs and you still defend them like victims. Not happy with just coming to a different world that doesn't belong to them in the case of Orc's or that belongs to the living in the case of the undead, they want to kill all the living or natives. They are a threat to everyone. It is beyond me how someone can defend their action in nothing more than a show of irrational RP'ing.

There have NEVER been peace treaties between Alliance and Horde. There have always been skirmishes cause Horde are NOT peaceful! Show me the Dranei going ham on the horde. Nope, nothing. It was the opposite. The Orcs hunted them down in Draenor like dogs. Killed them all, chased them out and destroyed their own world even though the Dranei did nothing to them. Then they come to a new world and want to do the same exact thing.
Get out! You disgust me.

I already tried to end this conversation amicably, but you are not interested, wich is why this forum is filled with people like you that don't know how to have a conversation without bring in lies and keep making it worse.
If i have to add you to ignore, i will. It's the only thing that makes this cesspool bearable. Actually i'm done with this BS. I'm ignoring you goodbye. I'm sure everyone else can see your bias clear as day without me having to point it out.
Some people like you may have time to do this tap dance of lies and dumbassery constantly, but my time is more valuable than you are.

[Steampunkette]

Well... the first point is outright lies, so i'm done debating about that. You even have the nerve to accuse me of tapdancing.

The second point is utterly disgusting and there's something very broken in you. The humanist problem is VERY much on your side. You accusation is completely ridiculous born from a statement you just made up. Existence is worthwhile in the form we know it now. Existence in the form of an undead that wants to kill it's family and all the living (forsaken) is not a legitimate existence. It's an aberration.
If your existence is justified by wanting to take the lives of others, your existence is not justified, no. Your humanism starts and ends with your existence. If you want to take others, you lose your right.

Your accusations are petty just cause you have your head too deep into RP to think straight.

Oh now theres a peace treaty signed by the frostwolf to have Alterac? Pretty cool made up lore there. Nice BS!

In old times, borders weren't even clear i'll let you know. Still, no one gives land willingly. Such naiveté.
It's funny that you bring up the case of Germany invading France in WW2, cause that is a perfect example of why you are wrong. Germany occupied France. They had government support. Therefore the allied were very wrong in taking lands from the poor nazis. This is you logic. IT STINKS!

The values of humanism you are ignoring are right to existence. Your beloved Orcs and Forsaken and genocidal maniacs and you still defend them like victims. Not happy with just coming to a different world that doesn't belong to them in the case of Orc's or that belongs to the living in the case of the undead, they want to kill all the living or natives. They are a threat to everyone. It is beyond me how someone can defend their action in nothing more than a show of irrational RP'ing.

There have NEVER been peace treaties between Alliance and Horde. There have always been skirmishes cause Horde are NOT peaceful! Show me the Dranei going ham on the horde. Nope, nothing. It was the opposite. The Orcs hunted them down in Draenor like dogs. Killed them all, chased them out and destroyed their own world even though the Dranei did nothing to them. Then they come to a new world and want to do the same exact thing.
Get out! You disgust me.

I already tried to end this conversation amicably, but you are not interested, wich is why this forum is filled with people like you that don't know how to have a conversation without bring in lies and keep making it worse.
If i have to add you to ignore, i will. It's the only thing that makes this cesspool bearable. Actually i'm done with this BS. I'm ignoring you goodbye. I'm sure everyone else can see your bias clear as day without me having to point it out.

Holy shit... You think you're Jesus Christ?

I'll call you Josh, from now on, better?

I would suggest actually reading the lore and understanding what's going on within the narrative. With that information, you might actually be able to provide a reasonable argument rather than leaping behind a philosophy you clearly don't understand terribly well and pretending for yourself that my morality is somehow incompatible with human existence.

In short: Fuck off, yeah?

[Frontenac]

So let's go race by race.

Orcs: There's a bunch of people who want them dead for their past crimes and their service to the Demons. Check.

Trolls: Yeah, the Darkspear trolls joined the Horde because their island was sinking and Vol'jin and Thrall were bros. BUT. Humans and High Elves have slaughtered Trolls since the Exile of the Highborn, and if the High Elves had had their druthers, there would be no Trolls whatsoever (An attitude they brought with them to the Alliance), and the people of Stromgarde and Arathi in general feel similarly. It's definitely arguable that they wouldn't -have- to die, so long as the humans got to kill all the orcs.

The fact that humans and co. and trolls of all tribes were slaughtering each other is no reason why the Darkspears joined the Horde. The Amani did join briefly for that reason, but since they are not playable... The Gurubashi are not in the Horde, neither are the Drakkari. The only reason why the Darkspears joined the Horde is because they were a tiny tribe exiled by other trolls to their tiny island where they were living under the tyranny of the Sea Witch.

Forsaken: Yeah, the Alliance want them all dead, pretty much invariably. From Garithos through the Scarlet Crusade, everyone wants the Forsaken to just crawl back into their graves and die. Even some Horde races would be happier if the Forsaken just fucked right off to push up some daisies.

Tauren: While they're "Technically" the most neutral of the original races, as far as humans and nelves and such are concerned, their temporary alliance with the Orcs while fleeing the Centaurs has earned them a death sentence from the Alliance. When Proudmoore sailed over to Kalimdor he wasn't all "Okay, Tauren and Trolls, you should head over there while we kill your orcish allies because they are demonspawned evil" he was very much in the "Kill 'em all" camp. And if Jaina hadn't turned against him, it's possible that Kul'tiras could've wiped out the burgeoning Horde right there and then.

Well, of course, if you are banding with my enemy, I will treat you as such in battle.

Blood Elves: Garithos, first and foremost. He represents an ugly undercurrent of racism in humanity even from WC3. And his racist bs has to have enough support within the military and the forces of the Alliance (of Lordaeron at that point, true) to imprison a bunch of elves for accepting the aid of the Naga while fighting the Scourge. And then all the other BS that happens in BC which further alienates them from the Alliance. That said, they're also the race that tried to make peace and rejoin the Alliance during MoP, but that got fucked up by infighting.

Yeah, yeah, Garithos, blah blah blah... It took them time enough to join the Horde then. More than five years. And only after accepting to negociate with a dwarf ambassador, which means that they were considering accepting the Alliance's help. It's really all the spying and the Night Elves presence in the Ghostlands that pushed them in the Horde's arms.

Goblins: Humans tried to destroy the entire Steamwheedle Cartel for catching them kidnapping Thrall.

No. Humans tried to destroy witnesses of their kidnapping of Thrall. It didn't matter that they were Goblins, Trolls, or even other humans. And they didn't know that all that remained of the Bilgewater Cartel (not Steamwheedle, by the way) was on that boat. If that boat sailed a little farther North or South, they would not have been targeted. They were "collateral damage."

Pandas: Yeah, you got me, there, but the whole "Racial Identity" page I was quoting from, in fairness, is based on the WoW Vanilla standings.

As to the Alliance, sure it does! Kinda. Mostly. I mean Humans, High Elves, and Dwarves (with gnomes as an adjunct to dwarves) have -long- been allies, even before the founding of the Alliance Proper. Then the High Elves became Blood Elves and got replaced by Night Elves 'cause... reasons? Not 100% on that one. I always thought the Belves should've rejoined the Alliance and the Nelves been Hordely since they're so close with the Tauren. *shrug!*

But the core of Human/Dwarf/Gnome relations is still there, and they were allies long before the Orcs ever started raiding, which was long before the invasion/war. Those races (gnomes less so) are the core of the Alliance Identity, and are kinda the basis on which everyone else joins in, you know? So even if they are allying with, say, the Nelves and the Draenei for survival against the Horde, three out of the 4 starting races were already locked in on "We've been friends since we were all Titanforged Animatronics!"

A fact that was unknown to them before Wrath of the Lich King... Anyway, yes, humans, high elves, dwarves (except Dark Irons) and Gnomes were generaly in good terms and traded. Even if human kingdoms were bickering from time to time. But they never formed a formal Alliance before the Orcs invaded. Being friends is not the same as puting your military under a unified leadership.

And the Night Elves joined because they needed allies against the encroachment of the Orcs and their allies in Ashenvale, their sacred forest.

[Niovi]

Like i said 1000 times before, Arakkoa are still my most wanted playable Race.

But i always thought Mantid would be cool too, but it seems like i'm the only one around who would like them as a playable Race lol.

[MrDragon]

I thought about that too. However, it was not the reason why they joined the Horde. Humans and Trolls were fighting each other for millenia before. Hell, trolls of any tribe were pretty much the enemies of all races in the Eastern Kingdoms! The Darkspear predicament was caused by their exile by the other jungle tribes and the Sea Witch. Also, those humans were Tirasians seeking Thrall and the boats he had stolen. They were not after the trolls. Since humans and trolls were already hostile to each other, it's hard to know who attacked first when the humans landed. Both are possible.

True.

Meanwhile... PLEASE STOP THE STUPID AVH ARGUMENT. Go argue with the Blizzard writing team if you object how neither faction is evil in canon.

Like i said 1000 times before, Arakkoa are still my most wanted playable Race.

But i always thought Mantid would be cool too, but it seems like i'm the only one around who would like them as a playable Race lol.

Actually I'd be very much on-board with Mantid.

[Frontenac]

True.

Meanwhile... PLEASE STOP THE STUPID AVH ARGUMENT. Go argue with the Blizzard writing team if you object with how neither faction is evil in canon.

I agree that it's derailing this thread...

Well, I still believe they could do something interesting with the Quillboars in the Alliance.

The main problems I have against the mantids are:
1. They are aligned with the Old Gods
2. I can't imagine them in armour.

[Syegfryed]

You don't know the definition of native.

They were created in Azeroth, with azerothian materials. They are therefore natives.

made by alien constructs

most of the orcs now are born in azeroth us your own logic and realize orcs are natives as well

[Steampunkette]

I agree that it's derailing this thread...

Well, I still believe they could do something interesting with the Quillboars in the Alliance.

The main problems I have against the mantids are:
1. They are aligned with the Old Gods
2. I can't imagine them in armour.

Agreed.

Personally I'd like Jinyuu to join the Alliance and Naga to join the Horde as an Aquatic Species content drop. When it's time to invade Nazjatar and fight Azshara, the Horde looks to a splinter faction of Naga who don't support their queen and bolsters them to help fight against her, bringing them into the Horde in a similar vein to how things went with the Nightborn. For the Alliance, they work with the Jinyuu to try and prepare an invasion force against the Naga with the Alliance decking the Jinyuu out in fine armor and weapons and following their lead to free the Murloc Slaves of the Naga to turn them against Azshara, and through that alliance of races bring the Jinyuu in, with Murlocs from the Naga Slavepens as "Technically" a member of the Alliance but not a player race. (Yet, at least).

Both sides would get some cool shit out of that, I think! And I'd -love- to play both races.

[Khirok]

Agreed.

Personally I'd like Jinyuu to join the Alliance and Naga to join the Horde as an Aquatic Species content drop. When it's time to invade Nazjatar and fight Azshara, the Horde looks to a splinter faction of Naga who don't support their queen and bolsters them to help fight against her, bringing them into the Horde in a similar vein to how things went with the Nightborn. For the Alliance, they work with the Jinyuu to try and prepare an invasion force against the Naga with the Alliance decking the Jinyuu out in fine armor and weapons and following their lead to free the Murloc Slaves of the Naga to turn them against Azshara, and through that alliance of races bring the Jinyuu in, with Murlocs from the Naga Slavepens as "Technically" a member of the Alliance but not a player race. (Yet, at least).

Both sides would get some cool shit out of that, I think! And I'd -love- to play both races.

So the Horde gets the race that everybody wants, while the Alliance gets somewhat -meh- fish people? I'd rather nobody gets Naga because one side wouldn't get them.

[Tripzzz]

made by alien constructs

most of the orcs now are born in azeroth us your own logic and realize orcs are natives as well

Orcs are made by alien constructs too. Orcs are descendents of Grond, who was created by Aggramar.

[Syegfryed]

Orcs are made by alien constructs too. Orcs are descendents of Grond, who was created by Aggramar.

i know the lore of the race i play, but im pointing how humans are aliens same as orcs, and their are also invaders like orcs, thee is no point of being selective and talk shit about one when defending the other.

[Tripzzz]

i know the lore of the race i play, but im pointing how humans are aliens same as orcs, and their are also invaders like orcs, thee is no point of being selective and talk shit about one when defending the other.

Humans are actually made of the earth of Azeroth. So they are more native than Orcs in that way, despite being titan constructs. In comparison to trolls and tauren, yes humans are alien invaders to them. But don't act like humans and orcs are the same level of "alien". Both made by titans, one was made from Draenor's earth and the other from Azeroth. There is a difference.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I must have missed the boat but why are so many hard for the Vulpera?

[Syegfryed]

Humans are actually made for the earth of Azeroth. So they are more native than Orcs in that way, despite being titan constructs. In comparison to troll, yes humans are invaders to them. But don't act like humans and orcs are the same level of "alien". Both made by titans, one was made form Draenor's earth and the other from Azeroth. There is a difference.

even if its azeroth earth, still is allien magic, alien design, whatever; This generation of orcs are born in azeroth, natives same as humans, again, there is no point in talking shit with one and defending the other.

Also, if trolls and tauens are ok, the true natives, humans can eat a banana.

[Tripzzz]

even if its azeroth earth, still is allien magic, alien design, whatever; This generation of orcs are born in azeroth, natives same as humans, again, there is no point in talking shit with one and defending the other.

Also, if trolls and tauens are ok, the true natives, humans can eat a banana.

It was that alien design and magic that cleansed the world of the Black Empire and allowed the trolls and tauren civilizations to thrive. But lets just ignore that part right?

[Rotted]

Exiled Eredar

Never will happen, but dam I'd love to play one.

[Steampunkette]

So the Horde gets the race that everybody wants, while the Alliance gets somewhat -meh- fish people? I'd rather nobody gets Naga because one side wouldn't get them.

I've seen Jinyuu threads off and on for years just like the Naga ones, and More Murloc threads than either.

I think both sides would win out fairly well in that one.

[Syegfryed]

It was that alien design and magic that cleansed the world of the Black Empire and allowed the trolls and tauren civilizations to thrive. But lets just ignore that part right?

am i saying the aliens are bad? im saying is retard defending humans and shitting on orcs, when they act almost the same, invaders, conquerors, but the humans sure are more egocentric.

[Tripzzz]

am i saying the aliens are bad? im saying is retard defending humans and shitting on orcs, when they act almost the same, invaders, conquerors, but the humans sure are more egocentric.

Saying the orcs are invaders to the humans isnt shitting on the orcs. It stating facts. Just like saying the humans are invaders to the trolls isn't shitting on the humans, merely stating facts. They may be similar, but humans being made from azeroth's earth make them way more native than the orcs. That's all i was getting at.

[Syegfryed]

Saying the orcs are invaders to the humans isnt shitting on the orcs. It stating facts. Just like saying the humans are invaders to the trolls isn't shitting on the humans, merely stating facts. They may be similar, but humans being made from azeroth's earth make them way more native than the orcs. That's all i was getting at.

who is less or more native is not relevant tough, or your are native, or you aren't. Like i said if someone want to bring the More native argument to acuse someone we would bring trolls and taurens.