Alliance, if you knew Nightborne were going to Horde...

[sykoex]

I feel like a simpler solution would be to remove Tyrande from any position where she might find herself interacting with a high-ranking official of another faction and replace her with someone more reliable such as Lady Katrana Prestor or Archbishop Benedictus. Unfortunately they're both deceased and unable to be of assistance.

[Kagthul]

20/20 hindsight i guess...

despite it all I would have helped them, sitting around and doing nothing would be like helping the legion. The truly dissapointing part is that the nightfallen not only join the horde but help in the attack of teldrassil. You would think they would at least not attack one of the main factions that assisted in the liberation of suramar and from whom they directly descended from.

That isn't how politics work, particularly feudal/dictatorial politics. When you join or ally with a kingdom/nation/group, you take on their allies as your own and their enemies as your own, for good or bad. If you aren't joining as a senior/decision-making member, you go with the flow and do what youre told.

On top of that.. .how is "who they are directly descended from" any different for Blood Elves? BothBlood Elves (being High Elves) and Nightborne are descended directly from [i][b] The Highborne [i][b] NOT common Night Elves. The Nightborne and the Blood Elves have more in common with each other than with Night Elves, who are almost universally descended from the common-blooded Night Elves (the only exception being the Highborne of Dire Maul who have only VERY, VERY RECENTLY returned to the fold).

Given only two choices (side with the Blood Elves, or the Night Elves, with remaining neutral apparently not being an acceptable outcome), the Nightborne were NEVER going to join with the Night Elves. Their society has FAR more in common with Blood Elves - their reliance on and power in Arcane Magic, their organizational hierarchy, their tendencies towards hedonism and being drawn to power. Given the choice between the two, it was ALWAYS going to be side with the Blood Elves - the elves they actually share ancestors with, in addition to everything else.

Despite everything the night elves played an important role in saving the nightfallen, from stealing supplies to recruiting of dissenters for the war effort, and more importantly SAVE REFUGEES RUNNING AWAY FROM THE HIGHBORNE!

Orcs did this too. And Tauren, and Blood Elves, and, well, everyone else. These quests were not unique to Night Elf characters. The Orders of Azeroth (Legionfall) did these things, NOT the Alliance or Horde.

It's not the night elves who needed to prove themselves loyal and changed. It's the nightfallen who were supposed to make amends for their past mistakes because they keep allying with beings like queen azshara and the legion and are basically drug addicts.

Tyrande was right once again to not trust the highborne, old habits die hard.

The Nightborne dont owe Tyrande shit. The contributions of the Blood Elves and Night Elves were relatively equal in securing the freedom of the Nightborne, and then afterwards Tyrande acted like a high-handed bitch, while the Blood Elves treated them like long-lost brothers.

Nightborne were never going to end up on the Alliance side of things. Only other way it could have turned out is with them sitting it out, and apparently that wasn't what they wanted to do.

While we're on the topic, there's something we need to get clear (and im not sure if someone brought this up already in this thread):

"The Alliance" and "The Horde" did not do, sponsor, or take part in ANY of the liberation of the Broken Isles. So there is none of this "Well after all the The Alliance did for "X" faction (the one i usually see here is Highmountain), HOW COULD THEY side with the Horde? (or 'after all the Horde did for the Lightforged'; not singling out one faction here) bullshit.

'cause that's what it is. Bullshit.

In a feudal world in particular, there is a concept that most people who play WoW probably dont grasp (and as a re-enactor, with a minor in medieval history, and other assorted nerdery, is sort of something i just accept and understand) - it is entirely possible to hold different alliegances and alliances as an individual that have no connection to one another - to the point of sometimes, one physical/biological person is actually, legally, six or seven different people.

An easy example is traditional feudal titles. A lot of families intermarried and often ended up with more than one title. So, you might be the Duke of Norfolk, but also be Earl of Essex and Baron of Locharbie. Legally, the Duke, Earl, and Baron are all separate identities and separate people. When acting, you have to say in what role you're acting. Often, that person might also be a Knight in service to one OR MORE Orders, which also have their own responsibilities and powers.

You can end up being one person that is actually half a dozen people.

That's what happened in Legion.

Yes, your character is still a member of the Alliance or Horde; in fact, you're pretty high up there - a Champion of your people and retired General. But the contributions of the political/legal entities of "The Alliance" and "The Horde" to the War of the Legions Fall ended at the Broken Shore. They retreated, tails tucked, and bailed the fuck out. Things were so bad they couldn't even gather enough reinforcements to send.

That's when the Class Orders stepped up, and how they cross the faction divide. Seeing that the two political powers were too caught up blaming each other, holding their armies back for potential war amongst themselves, the Orders stepped up and took charge.

When you are acting in Legion, you are NOT representing The Horde or The Alliance. You haven't given up membership in your nation/political union, but you are acting as the head of your Class Order, which holds no alliegance to EITHER party. You dont go to Highmountain as a representative of the Horde to save Highmountain. You go there as the Deathlord, or Netherlord, or Archdruid, or whatever. The Alliance didn't do shit to save Highmountain. (Neither did The Horde) The Order Halls did. Similarly, the Alliance and the Horde didn't help Suramar and the Nightborne - the Order Halls and one member nation of each political union did. It was made ENTIRELY clear on both factions' sets of quests that the Blood Elves and Night Elves were there to help out of Elven solidarity and NOT at the behest of their Warchief or High King. (It is intimated that the Night Elves actually only showed up because they caught wind of the Blood Elves preparing to help and refused to let them have a free hand, but this is not outright stated.) When you do quests for this quest line, you are operating as the leader and champion of your Order, not a member of the Horde or Alliance.

You happen to be an Alliance or Horde hero/champion/whatever, but you are acting in your position as your Class Order Leader.

The only time we see the Horde or Alliance attempt to do ANYTHING on the Broken Isles after the Broken Shore catastrophe is in Stormheim - where only a single of the quest-line/chapters/sub-stories deals with you acting as a member of your faction, and only against the other faction - not actually helping the people of Stormheim. After the first series of quests, you immediately basically turn your back on your faction leaders and start working for Odyn. Sylvannas is like "go seize the Aegis for the Horde!" and you're like... "..... nope. Giving it to Khadgar."

Thats the extent of the factions' involvement in the war. That the heroes of Legionfall (and therefore the members of each Class Order) are from one faction or the other is irrelevant. They aren't there as representatives of the Alliance or Horde, they are there as Knights of the Silver Hand under the Command of their Highlord (you), and the Silver Hand owes no alliegance to EITHER faction. Same with the Black Harvest, Ebon Blade, et al.

So stop with the "After all the (insert faction here) did for (NPC faction that is not joining their faction), HOW DARE THEY?!?!?!?!" outrage.

Nightborne were never likely to join the Night Elves. The Nightborne are Highborne. The Highborne that escaped the Broken Isles with the Night Elves were EXILED (and became the Blood Elves). The Nightborne were always going to join the Horde.

Same with the Highmountain Tauren. If they weren't going to stay neutral, then the Horde was the only place they were ever going to end up. They have nothing in common with any Alliance race. They are Tauren. Like the Taunka, the Horde was the only place they were going to end up (and Taunka need to be another Allied Race).

Same with the Lightforged. Anyone who thought they WERENT going to rejoin their kin with the Legion defeated was delusional.

None of these factions were going to "split" and have a "small part" go to the Horde/Alliance and the rest remain neutral. They tried that with Pandaren and that watered them down into irrelevance. Without a strong faction preference, they are bland in the extreme and bring nothing interesting to the Alliance or Horde. Goblins are in a similarly bad place though they have gone to SOME effort to really play up the differences between Gallywix and other (neutral) goblin leaders to provide SOME distinction. (Horde Goblins seem to be more of "team players" and slightly less likely to screw over clients/faction-mates/"friends" than the neutral types.) But even that fell flat.

(And before anyone gets on the "but wut about -evil- versions" - like Trolls, Tauren, Orcs, Humans, etc, that we fight as enemies... that's different - they are clearly identifiable as "other" to BOTH factions.)

[Eapoe]

Dunno...seems funny people focus on the Nightborne, forgetting Alli aided the Highmountain Tauren, as well as Horde assisting the LF Draenei AND Alleria.
I know since this was made people made a counterpart to it, but come on.

[Fenzha]

As long as they give XP or something to progress my character they can do whatever the hell they want.

[ello]

wait i don't understand the question here. If had to help the Nightborne to get the Eye of Aman'thul . That's why the Night Elves helped them even though they didn't really want to.

[Kagthul]

They do because Tyrande helped them to take back their city. And now the Nightborne are going help the Horde take Night Elven lands and burn their city because they helped them reluctantly. The traits of selfishness and ungratefulness became part of their culture now. They didn't even last a single expansion before their lore gets butchered.

There is no logic in this allied race nonsense and discussion on them is a waste of time. This is all just for game play mechanics and they created some childish lore moment for it to blizzardly justify it.

Sooo... you live in an alternate reality where your transposing the Night Elves and Blood Elves in the scenario (Tyrande helped because she wasn't going to let Liadrin and the Blood Elves steal a march on her, not because of any altruism), and then treated the Nightborne like shit afterwards (because she's an arrogant idiot - just like she treated the Highborne from Dire Maul like second class citizens when they "returned home"), whereas the Blood Elves treated them like the long-lost family they really are (both being descended from the Highborne).

And you dont get to pick and choose what battles you're going to fight when you join a nation/military Alliance. No alliance or empire is going to let you in if you get to pick and choose when you want to help. The Nightborne could LOVE Tyrande (they dont, because she was a high-handed bitch), but if the Horde is going to war with The Alliance.. that's that. Do you think the Lightforged Draeni are going to just .. not help the Alliance to attack and destroy Horde assets because a few Horde characters helped them out? You think they're going to just.. not fight Liadrin because they dont want to? Nope. Theyre part of the Alliance now. If the Alliance goes to fight, they go. Or they get the hell out.

Oh, and ill translated the bolded part:

"I have no concept of how writing works, or how political situations play out in feudal settings, so ill just declare that im right and not to be argued with for reasons."

When you get back to reality with the rest of us, .. well i was going to say let us know, but no one will care.

[Lumineus]

We will rejoin the world as defenders of Azeroth, not conquerors!

BRB, going to raze Ashenvale with mana bombs.

- First Arcanist Thalyssra

P.S. FOR THE HORDE

[TickTickTick]

...

Well, judging just from your first answer to a quote I can see you didnt even read what I typed carefully, so I wont bother answering any of yours.

You are biased beyond imagination. For my arguments you use one logic, for yours another, so that everything fits your opinion. Cheap manipulation tbh. Keep being grumpy about the Horde getting Nightborne and how it hurts you. Idc.

[Deleted]

interesting that their a topic for the draenei LF as well.

The nightborne less likely. But its more about the backstab blizzard is doing to that experience. The player is so tied to it and a lot to the night elves that its weird they go for horde. It destroys your past experience.
It's made even worse with how horde is such a monolithic organisation that also keeps attacking alliance for the kicks aswell.
I really want to horde to get some countries in them. But for both factions I don't those new countries to be homogenised into full loyalty.
Maybe just adventurers of those countries join the faction while the country itself is mainly neutral but trades more with that faction and might help in world threats and defense.

I found it so weird to see the Tauren so heavily involved in attacking night elves or alliance during the Cataclysm. I'd have the same with the highmountain taurens. Their pretty isolated living their lives focusing on peace. This is also how i hope the highmountain will be with the horde. It makes sense they have tighter relations with the horde Taurens. The highmountains im more willing to help than nightborne, prob because of the experience it gives and different setting.
Now if the Yaungol would join the horde they make a lot of sense to be joining in all types of war the Horde does including against the alliance.

(also lightforged Draenei and void elves are so lame and cheasy. You get dark and light magic variant of the race.....you do something like this when your out of ideas not start with it -.- )

[Kaleredar]

Well, judging just from your first answer to a quote I can see you didnt even read what I typed carefully, so I wont bother answering any of yours.

You are biased beyond imagination. For my arguments you use one logic, for yours another, so that everything fits your opinion. Cheap manipulation tbh. Keep being grumpy about the Horde getting Nightborne and how it hurts you. Idc.

All I gleaned is that you really didn't understand what was going on in the nightborne quests.

Sure, they might be handing out artifact power just like any other rep, but if you ignore the story going on and the characters and just kind of glide through it, it's quite understandable that you'd confuse it for being "just like every other rep."

I would hope that blizzard takes story into consideration more than you obviously seem to, and it's unfortunate that they seem content to gloss it over like you do.

[TickTickTick]

All I gleaned is that you really didn't understand what was going on in the nightborne quests.

Sure, they might be handing out artifact power just like any other rep, but if you ignore the story going on and the characters and just kind of glide through it, it's quite understandable that you'd confuse it for being "just like every other rep."

I would hope that blizzard takes story into consideration more than you obviously seem to, and it's unfortunate that they seem content to gloss it over like you do.

Excuse me, but who the hell you think you are to decide wether i'm confused, didnt pay attention or didnt understand something?
I understood everything doing the chain on multiple characters cause I enjoyed Suramar. I would wish that you never again suggest anything related to my understanding cause I dont want to have anything to do with your bullshit.

The discussion between us is over. You can go and whimp about how it doesnt make sense in your biased headcanon for all I care. I'm fairly sure the creators of this game know better, thats why they made such decission and not another. Out.

[Kagthul]

Dunno...seems funny people focus on the Nightborne, forgetting Alli aided the Highmountain Tauren, as well as Horde assisting the LF Draenei AND Alleria.
I know since this was made people made a counterpart to it, but come on.

Except neither The Alliance OR The Horde helped Highmountain OR the Lightforged. YOUR CHARACTER, representing/acting as the leader of their class Order, helped those factions. NOT the Horde or Alliance, who have no real presence on the Broken Isles other than in Stormheim, where they are tied up fighting each other.

The Alliance and The Horde didnt help those people. The Knights of the Silver Hand, Council of the Black Harvest, Knights of the Ebon Blade, Cenarion Circle, Huntsmen of the Lodge, etc, helped those people.

- - - Updated - - -

You give Nightborne too much credit. Ask yourself why Tyrande is cold to them. It is because they betrayed their own kin in war of the ancients by ignoring the whole world

... talk about revisionist delusional history. They had two choices at the time: 1 - get wiped out (as a huge demon army was on its way and none of the other Night Elves could come to their defense) or 2 - put up the shield.

Saving themselves is not "betraying their own kin" - and lets remember, they were Highborne. They didn't particularly consider themselves kin of the lower class Night Elves even then. Betrayal would have been something like "we are so totally going to come help you!" and then going "just foolin! hope you guys die!". What they did was "we've seen the evil of the Legion and would like to help fight them, but we cant. All we can do at this point is save ourselves."

and hid behind that shield for 10 thousand years

Okay?

while Night Elves were giving their lives to protect the world.

I mean, given your user name, its not hard to see why you cant see past your built in prejudices and near-propaganda-like ideas, but seriously? What another nation did while you were doing your own thing is not your problem. This is like saying the humans betrayed the Night Elves by not helping during the War of the Shifting Sands. You know, that thing they didn't even know about. Or that the Trolls betrayed them for not helping, or some shit.

Still she appeared and aided them. Thalyssra herself mentioned that they helped them but reluctantly.

Yeah, because she didnt want to let the Blood Elves have all the credit. There was no altruism involved here, just some badly implemented realpolitik (because she botched the follow-up by treating them like shit, undoing any good will she had engendered and ensuring they would end up with the Horde and the Blood Elves.)

Now the Nightborne have a goal to expand beyond Suramar and thus they opted to join a faction and chose Horde.

... right? You know, they sided with the people who didn't treat them like shit. And with whom they already had WAY more in common (the Blood Elves) both being societies based on Arcane magical might and prowess and both descended from the Highborne.

For their greedy goal they are going to help the Horde take the homeland of those who also helped them to take back their city. You cannot deny that they acted like selfish bastards, call it bad writing or anything but this is what it is.

You're inventing a motive where there is no proof one exists. Occam's Razor here. They join(ed) The Horde. They will help the Horde. There is no particular evidence that they are happy about having to help destroy Teldrassil. Or that they aren't ecstatic. Maybe they are, but you can't claim that they are when there is no proof of that.

What there is proof of is that they are now Horde subjects. So they either do what the Warchief commands or they get the fuck out.

And.. if they had sided with the Alliance.... how would it be any better for them to help the The Alliance to take Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas away from the Blood Elves (which they have every intention of doing in Battle for Azeroth)?

That's sorta the point here. They were going to be screwing someone who had helped them in the past no matter what choice they made. It was only natural they were going to side with the people who A) didn't treat them like ass and B) they have more in common with (Blood Elves).

And by the way ... first calm down

I'm totally calm. Amused as hell by your flagrant ignorance and olympic-competition levels of self-delusion regarding your headcanon, but calm. You cant imply if someone is calm or not via text. Tough concept, i know.

and remember that politics are not this childish like you claim.

Oh no, they're even MORE childish than the stuff im claiming. How many citations would you like me to make of historical wars that started over simple insults and cost the lives of tens of thousands of people? Or that were fought over literally just a few thousand acres of land? Where nations flipped political alliances like high school girls ttrying on prom dresses and sometimes turned on one another mid-battle?

And also this is not reality, this is a fictional universe

That is based in feudal society in the real world. And, from going back over the history (which is easy to do thanks to Chronicle) fits quite nicely in that. Petty wars, constant deception, side-switching, turning on one another. The World of Warcraft is EXACTLY like i described it. Maybe go read the history a bit.

and when you understood it ... well I was going to say let me know but I am going to ignore you since you are too far behind to understand the concept of morality, both in the story and in the forum.

I was going to say something trite about "forum morality" (what the fuck is that even?) but its not worth my time... but morality in World of Warcraft is VERY shades-of-grey. There are VERY few people in the entirety of Warcraft's setting that are truly 100% good or evil. Most of them sit solidly in the middle.

Tyrande is well intentioned, but she's a shitty politician. And she's supported her share of atrocities, just like the other members of The Alliance. And the Horde are n o less guilty.

That's sorta what makes the setting interesting. Neither faction is truly good or evil. They've both made massive mistakes and caused serious catastrophes. Often, the very heroes of the story are terrible, terrible, awful people. WoW's world is one in which the protagonist who is fighting to save the world might be a terrible person - and often is.

EVERY Warlock is evil. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Regardless of faction. They rip souls out of living, sentient beings and use them to fuel magic. They are evil. And i say that as a guy who has played a Warlock since the OG beta. But you can still be the Hero in WoW. Death Knights are evil. They even aknowledge it and make no attempt to deny it (unlike a lot of Warlocks who like to self-deceive and think theyre doing bad things for the right reasons). The DKs KNOW they are damned, which is why they do the horrible things that the other people cant - so they dont have to.

Etc.

You really need to examine why you think the Night Elves are pure as the driven snow (they aren't). Because nothing backs it up except your headcanon. They aren't terrible people as a race, but they aren't saints.

[Servasus]

I don’t understand this. Nightborne going Horde was a decision that came after 7.0 was done and launched. It was made shortly before 7.1 was released and some of the 7.1 dialogue was re-written to start building a blood elf nightborne relationship that was non existent in 7.0

The statement doesn’t makes sense because at the time the nightborne weren’t going anywhere or joining any faction they were just trying to survive. But after we save them the blood elves really honour them and pander to them and though the night elves of the alliance are their kin they choose the blood elves because they feel more welcomed. It has nothing to do with when we were helping them. There are many of us who would choose our friends who are more appreciative of us over family who don’t seem that interested especially if we’ve learnt to live ok without them for a very very long time. It’s not perfect but it happens.

However it is odd they will go so far as to burning forests and killing night elves - that’s disappointing. I expected them to be more blood elf allies than invested full on horde members going along with every horde vendetta and being yes people to Sylvannas’ every whim.

Just because the president of the US might start WW3, doesn't mean I support the war.

Just because a faction of the Horde burns Teldrassil doesn't mean the Nightborne support that, either.

The Horde and the Alliance and the race factions within them have never been that black and white. Now is no different.

But to answer the OP, yes, I still would have done the quests. I want the rewards, after all. But that doesn't mean I don't think it's a slight kick in the face that Horde gets them and not Alliance. Honestly, all three races Alliance got are shitty and lazy compared to the Horde. Look at the models side by side. It's no contest. FFS literally every alliance allied race is just a recolor of models that are already playable whereas the horde gets the Nightborne and the Zandalari, which are previously unplayable models by either faction. It's actually bullshit, if you think about it.

[Deathpath]

2. Night Elves aren't narcissists, but Nightborne definitely are, as well as Blood Elves.

Night elves are narcissistic in a more subtle way. They regard just about everything that isn't akin to them and their beliefs with upturned noses and scoffs. They have an un-earned self righteous attitude because they lived in trees and slept for about 10 thousand years.

So in that regard you can say that all elves are arrogant pricks in their own unique way.

[Eapoe]

Except neither The Alliance OR The Horde helped Highmountain OR the Lightforged. YOUR CHARACTER, representing/acting as the leader of their class Order, helped those factions. NOT the Horde or Alliance, who have no real presence on the Broken Isles other than in Stormheim, where they are tied up fighting each other.

The Alliance and The Horde didnt help those people. The Knights of the Silver Hand, Council of the Black Harvest, Knights of the Ebon Blade, Cenarion Circle, Huntsmen of the Lodge, etc, helped those people.

- - - Updated - - -



... talk about revisionist delusional history. They had two choices at the time: 1 - get wiped out (as a huge demon army was on its way and none of the other Night Elves could come to their defense) or 2 - put up the shield.

Saving themselves is not "betraying their own kin" - and lets remember, they were Highborne. They didn't particularly consider themselves kin of the lower class Night Elves even then. Betrayal would have been something like "we are so totally going to come help you!" and then going "just foolin! hope you guys die!". What they did was "we've seen the evil of the Legion and would like to help fight them, but we cant. All we can do at this point is save ourselves."



Okay?



I mean, given your user name, its not hard to see why you cant see past your built in prejudices and near-propaganda-like ideas, but seriously? What another nation did while you were doing your own thing is not your problem. This is like saying the humans betrayed the Night Elves by not helping during the War of the Shifting Sands. You know, that thing they didn't even know about. Or that the Trolls betrayed them for not helping, or some shit.



Yeah, because she didnt want to let the Blood Elves have all the credit. There was no altruism involved here, just some badly implemented realpolitik (because she botched the follow-up by treating them like shit, undoing any good will she had engendered and ensuring they would end up with the Horde and the Blood Elves.)



... right? You know, they sided with the people who didn't treat them like shit. And with whom they already had WAY more in common (the Blood Elves) both being societies based on Arcane magical might and prowess and both descended from the Highborne.



You're inventing a motive where there is no proof one exists. Occam's Razor here. They join(ed) The Horde. They will help the Horde. There is no particular evidence that they are happy about having to help destroy Teldrassil. Or that they aren't ecstatic. Maybe they are, but you can't claim that they are when there is no proof of that.

What there is proof of is that they are now Horde subjects. So they either do what the Warchief commands or they get the fuck out.

And.. if they had sided with the Alliance.... how would it be any better for them to help the The Alliance to take Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas away from the Blood Elves (which they have every intention of doing in Battle for Azeroth)?

That's sorta the point here. They were going to be screwing someone who had helped them in the past no matter what choice they made. It was only natural they were going to side with the people who A) didn't treat them like ass and B) they have more in common with (Blood Elves).



I'm totally calm. Amused as hell by your flagrant ignorance and olympic-competition levels of self-delusion regarding your headcanon, but calm. You cant imply if someone is calm or not via text. Tough concept, i know.



Oh no, they're even MORE childish than the stuff im claiming. How many citations would you like me to make of historical wars that started over simple insults and cost the lives of tens of thousands of people? Or that were fought over literally just a few thousand acres of land? Where nations flipped political alliances like high school girls ttrying on prom dresses and sometimes turned on one another mid-battle?



That is based in feudal society in the real world. And, from going back over the history (which is easy to do thanks to Chronicle) fits quite nicely in that. Petty wars, constant deception, side-switching, turning on one another. The World of Warcraft is EXACTLY like i described it. Maybe go read the history a bit.



I was going to say something trite about "forum morality" (what the fuck is that even?) but its not worth my time... but morality in World of Warcraft is VERY shades-of-grey. There are VERY few people in the entirety of Warcraft's setting that are truly 100% good or evil. Most of them sit solidly in the middle.

Tyrande is well intentioned, but she's a shitty politician. And she's supported her share of atrocities, just like the other members of The Alliance. And the Horde are n o less guilty.

That's sorta what makes the setting interesting. Neither faction is truly good or evil. They've both made massive mistakes and caused serious catastrophes. Often, the very heroes of the story are terrible, terrible, awful people. WoW's world is one in which the protagonist who is fighting to save the world might be a terrible person - and often is.

EVERY Warlock is evil. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Regardless of faction. They rip souls out of living, sentient beings and use them to fuel magic. They are evil. And i say that as a guy who has played a Warlock since the OG beta. But you can still be the Hero in WoW. Death Knights are evil. They even aknowledge it and make no attempt to deny it (unlike a lot of Warlocks who like to self-deceive and think theyre doing bad things for the right reasons). The DKs KNOW they are damned, which is why they do the horrible things that the other people cant - so they dont have to.

Etc.

You really need to examine why you think the Night Elves are pure as the driven snow (they aren't). Because nothing backs it up except your headcanon. They aren't terrible people as a race, but they aren't saints.

As far as your response to me, a few things to keep in mind. Yes, you are there as a champion of your class order; however, you are also representative to your faction. Whether intended or not, your actions speak volumes to your chosen affiliation, and what you do or do not do has an impact. Whether directly or indirectly helping from a faction standpoint, you are representative of your faction, and you assisting other factions has impact and is perceived as help/hatred for your faction.
Second (and I think you addressed this yourself in your post to others, the Nightfallen were not being directly helped by the Alliance OR the Horde. Suramar was the place Guldan was hiding out as well as a major strategic base for the Legion on Azeroth. The Alli and the Horde were going for it with or without ever having met the Nightfallen. The Nightfallen aided them, not the Alli or Horde helping the Nightfallen. The difference is that while this was happening, the Blood Elves formed a bond with Thalyssra and her Nightfallen, acknowledging their plight and sharing the issue of addiction to the Well. On the flipside, Turande chastised them for it. Following the storyline, it's pretty clear which faction they would have joined if they were going to.

[Nathasil]

In WoW you have exactly two choices: Play the content or do nothing. So would i have played the content? Yes, of course. It was the exact same thing with the entire Garrosh story in the Barrens. Alliance clearly had no role there...we were just allowed to go along and pretend to be Horde, because Blizzard could not be arsed to create a story that actually involved both factions.

Does it feel good and rewarding to play such content? No, it does not. For me there is still some meaning to the "RP" in MMORPG...which means i think about what motivation my character would have to do what s/he does. Barrens was bad, but Suramar is far worse. It was, measured by WoW standards, really a great zone with an amazing story...to then find out it is Barrens 2.0, a Horde zone that you are simply allowed to "play as well" on Alliance side because Blizzard could not be arsed to design a zone for you...well....that's not really a good feeling.

On the other hand Horde definetly felt like that in Val'shara and on Argus, too....so i suppose it is somewhat...fair? I don't know. Val'shara was awesome (except for maybe 2-3 a little over the top cheesy voicelines), Argus definetly was not. Argus deserved to be it's own expansion...the way they shat it out in one patch, that was FAR below par, even in WoW standards, makes it one of the weakest "final patches" ever. I don't think Val'shara vs. Suramar is a "fair" tradeoff....because Suramar was just so much bigger.

So, to answer the question: Yes, i would...but it completely destroys my RP, because the questline makes me care about the Nightborne and in 7.3.5 they suddely decide to hate me and help destroy my home, after i helped them save theirs....so i guess i should hate them? Which makes playing the zone really underwhelming.

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@"It's the same for Horde and Lightforged"
No, it's not. The Draenei ask the Horde to help on Argus. What have the Draenei ever done to the Horde? To the contrary: They are the biggest benefactor of the most played Horde race. Of course the Blood Elves would help the Draenei. Nobody on Azeroth has any reason to hold a grudge against the Draenei.

Nightborne however, already betrayed Azeroth and especially the Night Elves, before. We owe them exactly NOTHING. They have never done anything even remotely good for anybody else. And even in Legion, there are FAR more Nightborne trying to kill us than there are willing to he....no, wait, actually they are not even willing to help us! They are willing to ACCEPT OUR HELP. Tyrande comes to aid them, despite them being one of the most despicable ilk on all of Azeroth....and as a thank you they ally with the Blood Elves to wage war against the Night Elves home...?

Also: Horde+Alliance allied races are not the same. From the Book excerpt we know Sylvanas is plotting to start the war against Stormwind soon. She is looking for Allies to throw at the Alliance. Anybody who takes a look at Sylvanas knows this. So either Nightborne are just unbelieveably stupid to join her...or they actually WANT to wage war on the Alliance. That was also true for Pandaren in the Horde in MOP. You cannot have that talk with Garrosh and believe he shares your ways.

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Night elves are narcissistic in a more subtle way. They regard just about everything that isn't akin to them and their beliefs with upturned noses and scoffs. They have an un-earned self righteous attitude because they lived in trees and slept for about 10 thousand years.

So in that regard you can say that all elves are arrogant pricks in their own unique way.

This is not true. Night Elves sacrificed their entire civilisation to join the forces that heal this world. It was the Humans and Orcs that brought the Legion back to Kalimdor, NOT the Night Elves...yet they took up that fight and saved Azeroth. That is the story of WC3. And the Night Elves who did this are not even the ones who brought the Legion to Azeroth 10.000 years ago! Those Night Elves all died, became Naga, Highelves > Blood Elves or Nightborne. The playable race that is Night Elves today DOES have a reason to look down on anybody else. Especially the Orcs, who were in a very similar situation as the ancient Night Elves were....but instead of overthrowing their corrupt leaders and saving their planet...they are now here, destroying ours. The playable Night Elves are basically Durotan from the Movie...the only one who rises up and is willing to fight for what he believes in. The only difference is that the Night Elves actually won.

[Ghazan Julio]

In WoW you have exactly two choices: Play the content or do nothing. So would i have played the content? Yes, of course. It was the exact same thing with the entire Garrosh story in the Barrens. Alliance clearly had no role there...we were just allowed to go along and pretend to be Horde, because Blizzard could not be arsed to create a story that actually involved both factions.

Does it feel good and rewarding to play such content? No, it does not. For me there is still some meaning to the "RP" in MMORPG...which means i think about what motivation my character would have to do what s/he does. Barrens was bad, but Suramar is far worse. It was, measured by WoW standards, really a great zone with an amazing story...to then find out it is Barrens 2.0, a Horde zone that you are simply allowed to "play as well" on Alliance side because Blizzard could not be arsed to design a zone for you...well....that's not really a good feeling.

On the other hand Horde definetly felt like that in Val'shara and on Argus, too....so i suppose it is somewhat...fair? I don't know. Val'shara was awesome (except for maybe 2-3 a little over the top cheesy voicelines), Argus definetly was not. Argus deserved to be it's own expansion...the way they shat it out in one patch, that was FAR below par, even in WoW standards, makes it one of the weakest "final patches" ever. I don't think Val'shara vs. Suramar is a "fair" tradeoff....because Suramar was just so much bigger.

So, to answer the question: Yes, i would...but it completely destroys my RP, because the questline makes me care about the Nightborne and in 7.3.5 they suddely decide to hate me and help destroy my home, after i helped them save theirs....so i guess i should hate them? Which makes playing the zone really underwhelming.

---

@"It's the same for Horde and Lightforged"
No, it's not. The Draenei ask the Horde to help on Argus. What have the Draenei ever done to the Horde? To the contrary: They are the biggest benefactor of the most played Horde race. Of course the Blood Elves would help the Draenei. Nobody on Azeroth has any reason to hold a grudge against the Draenei.

Nightborne however, already betrayed Azeroth and especially the Night Elves, before. We owe them exactly NOTHING. They have never done anything even remotely good for anybody else. And even in Legion, there are FAR more Nightborne trying to kill us than there are willing to he....no, wait, actually they are not even willing to help us! They are willing to ACCEPT OUR HELP. Tyrande comes to aid them, despite them being one of the most despicable ilk on all of Azeroth....and as a thank you they ally with the Blood Elves to wage war against the Night Elves home...?

Also: Horde+Alliance allied races are not the same. From the Book excerpt we know Sylvanas is plotting to start the war against Stormwind soon. She is looking for Allies to throw at the Alliance. Anybody who takes a look at Sylvanas knows this. So either Nightborne are just unbelieveably stupid to join her...or they actually WANT to wage war on the Alliance. That was also true for Pandaren in the Horde in MOP. You cannot have that talk with Garrosh and believe he shares your ways.

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This is not true. Night Elves sacrificed their entire civilisation to join the forces that heal this world. It was the Humans and Orcs that brought the Legion back to Kalimdor, NOT the Night Elves...yet they took up that fight and saved Azeroth. That is the story of WC3. And the Night Elves who did this are not even the ones who brought the Legion to Azeroth 10.000 years ago! Those Night Elves all died, became Naga, Highelves > Blood Elves or Nightborne. The playable race that is Night Elves today DOES have a reason to look down on anybody else. Especially the Orcs, who were in a very similar situation as the ancient Night Elves were....but instead of overthrowing their corrupt leaders and saving their planet...they are now here, destroying ours. The playable Night Elves are basically Durotan from the Movie...the only one who rises up and is willing to fight for what he believes in. The only difference is that the Night Elves actually won.

Saurfang would like a word with your head.

[Deleted]

Would you have done the quests? If blizz had told you before this race was going to belong to the horde. Just curious what the ally thoughts are and Horde alike. I don't find them to be very interesting elves. They're just like the night elves honestly, narcissists and hypocrites that don't really do anything in the main wars. Yes I am calling night elves weak, after watching Malfurion and Xavius play prisoners together hundreds of times you start to realize the bad writing and voice acting is getting old and Malfurion is a complete coward compared to his brother.

Well sorry ally, it looks like when it comes to nature we got the wine loving elves and you guys are stuck with the tree-humpers.

Don't overstrain yourself, friend. Whatever gave you THAT much pain in the nether regions you just have to post a bait thread for allies, I'm sure some warm loving and care can cure it <3

[Deleted]

Useless discussion. It's like asking "Hey Germans, if you knew that Germany would be the driving force in the European Union in 2017, would you still have gone to war in 1939?"

[Mace]

The zone and the city was too cool to not be doing really. I do got both alliance and Horde characters, but I do feel the whole questline from 7.1(inssurection) showed too much "oh the friendly Blood Elves" and that Tyrande is a bit out of character. She is sceptical and at times ruthless, but were did her compassion suddenly go? Easy to see now why it is like that because of the two new Allied Elves thing.

Done the whole thing 5 times and one character done it halfway, all 6 exalted. The only one wich is not exalted and where Thalryssa is still starving is on my Night Elf Druid, coincidentally

Personally loved the questline and do enjoy them over and over. Best thing about Legion. That marvelous Suramar City. I did stop doing emissaries and shit on the Alliance chars because Thalryssa is a backstabbing hoe, but my three Blood Elves loves her. One of them is going to be my main as Nightborne in BfA, just not sure wich class. And going to get that heritage armor. Nightborne overall looks awesome, looking forward to it.

Yes, I feel the same way as you do. I immediately sussed something fishy was going on when Tryande reappears in 7.1 with skepticism and no compassion, very unlike her - she normally has all 3 - at times ruthless, initially skeptical, but full of compassion too. I also noticed the priestess side awas non-existent, was a perfect opportunity to show the goddess helping out the nightborne, but instead she is proclaiming the alliance - also odd.

We also see her completely absent from the broken shore which is very odd, as the most holy site to ELune is the Cathedral. But when you see what they did with allied races (which is why they are called allied races instead of sub-races - they can't be sub races if the nightborne are with the blood elves, or the void elves with the humans - because nightborne are a night elf sub-race and void elves are a blood elf sub-race. Then when you read the dev interviews, they initially wrote a far more night elf dominant sotry for the brokenshore and the legion invasion, but felt we didn't have enough of the big bad legion presence and changed all of it.

Now after the heavy legion focus of 7.3, it is the night elf role and presence that seems very subdued and meaningless in an area and theme that it should dominate. It's all off. Whether they'll try to make up for it when we go to fight Azshara is unknown, we shall see.

Still I did like the story telling of most of legion inspite of the balance being too far off the night elves. While I feel they could have and should have made a better effort of it, it was still an enjoyable experience. However you want amazing and the lore somersaults have prevented that. Still the artwork was amazing and the depiction of the arcane kaldorei society in Suramar was very detailed. Ofc this is what we now call nightborne society, but it's stupidly sad to see people so ignorant that this is also kaldorei arcane society and highborne society. I can see how it helps to actually give it a new name "shal'dorei society" but its sad when poeple don't get that it is kaldorei pre-sundering society - this is highborne society and the current highborne (the shen'dralar live like that still. It would be the type of society the moonguard are use to also and the Farondis highborne ghosts.