Jeff Sessions retracts court guidance on debtors' prisons.

[NYC17]

Hence the on-topic portion of my earlier post:
Goes without saying, but:

Poor people are more likely to have the bare minimum necessary insurance, and thus, no comprehensive coverage. They save $6/month in insurance costs, but pay $214 for a simple windshield repair that would have been free.

Additionally, poor people are more likely to live in areas with poorly-maintained infrastructure - thus more potholes and roadway debris, resulting in more broken windshields in the first place.

Combining the two then - if you are poor, and unable to pay a $200 fine within 30 days, how would you be able to pay $214 for the repair? Assuming you had made the repair and not paid the fine, you would need to take a day off within the 30 days to get an extension on the fine - figure another $50 or so in lost wages, assuming they can even get the time off.

End result is a system of fines, created for the purpose of increasing revenue for the city, that while "fair" (because everybody pays the same $200 fine) is inherently stacked against the poor (who have less ability to pay the fines, less ability to pay for the routine or emergency maintenance that stops them from being fined in the first place, and less ability to fight the fines in court if need be).

It's a travesty. Calling it "justice" is a perversion of the word.

Agreed, but when dealing with people like lockedout, the nuance, or in this case clear difference, in your post is lost.

[lockedout]

Full disclosure: you can.

You need to go to a mechanic, have them clear the fault code, drive for just long enough for the emissions tester to detect the car has been driven enough to pass the test, but not long enough that the engine light comes on.

I certainly never did this to pass emissions on a 2000 Camry that had 4 (!) catalytic converters replaced within 4 years. That is a $700 part FYI. Luckily two of them failed under warranty, and my mechanic handled the RMAs, so I only spent $1400 out of pocket before totally not using the workaround.

To the larger issue of car maintenance, fines, and undue burden on the poor:

Cracked windshields often happen due to roadway debris, rather than improper maintenance on the part of the car owner. Small rock gets kicked up into your windshield from the car in front of you, creates an almost imperceptible divot in the windshield. Weeks later, you hit a pothole, and you get a huge crack clear across the windshield with that divot in the center. It then spiderwebs every time you hit another pothole.

If you have comprehensive coverage on your auto insurance, it is almost always covered for free. If you have only the state-mandated liability coverage, you are paying out of pocket for the repair, in addition to the fine for the broken windshield. Angieslist reports that the average driver paid $214 for windshield replacement.

So you are talking about a $214 repair and a $200 ticket. That's $414.

Not chump change by any means.

Driving a car with a cracked windshield is dangerous to yourself and everyone around you.

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Agreed, but when dealing with people like lockedout, the nuance, or in this case clear difference, in your post is lost.

If you can't afford to maintain a car use public transportation.

[Antiganon]

Agreed, but when dealing with people like lockedout, the nuance, or in this case clear difference, in your post is lost.

True.

Although the anecdote was relevant to my original point - really stupid shit has insanely exorbitant prices for no discernible reason, which is a major burden on the poor. Car registration is $90 here. That alone is over a day's work at CT minimum wage. Add the emissions test, that's another $25. You fail the test, but they don't tell you why, so now you need to go to a mechanic or have the tool and/or a friend to give you the fault code. Mechanics will charge an hour's labor if you don't have them do the repairs. You then need to repair or replace whatever is actually broken. Further costs. Depending on the repair, you may need to leave your car at the mechanic for an extended period, resulting in increased transportation costs or more missed work. Repeat this every year if your car is more than a few years old (and your car is more likely to be older if you are poor).

Like the system, at least in terms of DMV/registration/emissions/fine issuance/car maintenance and repairs, isn't intended to be stacked against the poor, but it sure winds up coming out that way.

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Driving a car with a cracked windshield is dangerous to yourself and everyone around you.

Agreed.

Unfortunately, "thoughts and prayers" won't fix broken glass.

You know what else is dangerous to everyone around you (but not to you personally)? Driving a giant SUV with 8+ inches of snow frozen on the roof in a giant sheet, waiting to fall off your car and crush the windshield of the guy driving behind you.

You know who doesn't generally get fined by police for things like that?

I bet you do.

Where I live, they may write you a $219 ticket for unsecured cargo. There is no statute specifying a fine for failure to remove snow from your car.

More likely, the cops will just sit behind you with their lights on while you climb up and clear it off.

[Elegiac]

If you can't afford to maintain a car use public transportation.

Thanks to voters like yourself, public transportation in the US is absolute garbage.

[Milchshake]

Thanks to voters like yourself, public transportation in the US is absolute garbage.

It's almost like as if as a class, rural voters consistently vote down measures for infrastructure, transportation, and even libraries. There's been a lot of library closures in rural Western counties. Timber royalties dried up and they dont want to pass bonds for continued funding.


But muh property taxes are theft they say.

[NYC17]

Driving a car with a cracked windshield is dangerous to yourself and everyone around you.

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If you can't afford to maintain a car use public transportation.

It actually seems that you believe public transportation is available everywhere.

Lol. Keep going lockedout, your points are the best counterpoints to yourself.

[Lenonis]

It actually seems that you believe public transportation is available everywhere.

Well clearly if you can't afford to live in a place that requires a car you should just move to a city with good public transportation. C'mon I mean...duh right? (/s)

[NYC17]

Well clearly if you can't afford to live in a place that requires a car you should just move to a city with good public transportation. C'mon I mean...duh right? (/s)

Haha, right. Unfortunately I don't think lockedout sees the sarcasm in that...

[cubby]

It actually seems that you believe public transportation is available everywhere.

Lol. Keep going lockedout, your points are the best counterpoints to yourself.

Exactly - or that public transport, even where it exist, can solve all the problems of people without cars. @lockedout continues to be his own worse logical enemy.

[lockedout]

True.

You fail the test, but they don't tell you why, so now you need to go to a mechanic or have the tool and/or a friend to give you the fault code. Mechanics will charge an hour's labor if you don't have them do the repairs.

Just as an FYI Auto Zone and other similar stores will check it for free. You get the error code and then you can google it or they can google it for you. Then you will know what your check engine light is on for.

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Thanks to voters like yourself, public transportation in the US is absolute garbage.

I have never voted in my life.

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There is no statute specifying a fine for failure to remove snow from your car.

There is in my state.

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Well clearly if you can't afford to live in a place that requires a car you should just move to a city with good public transportation. C'mon I mean...duh right? (/s)

That or find a job that is closer, carpool with a fellow co worker, Uber or some people ride bicycles. Buying and owning a car comes with maintenance can't afford it don't drive.

[Mormolyce]

We're the only people shitposting at this hour. Tfw you live on the wrong side of the planet.

Wrong side of the planet, right side of history. Kekeke.

[Antiganon]

I have never voted in my life.

Why? Why not exercise your responsibility as a citizen in a representative democracy? Democracy doesn't work when people opt out of the process and complain about the result.

There is in my state.

And? My point was that cops are more lenient with snow on the roof than they are with broken windshields, despite similar levels of danger for other drivers.

That or find a job that is closer, carpool with a fellow co worker, Uber or some people ride bicycles. Buying and owning a car comes with maintenance can't afford it don't drive.

All of which requires you to either be dependent on other people to get to your job, substantially increase your commute time, or both. "Find a closer job" isnt a realistic solution for the vast majority of people.

I get there are consequences for shirking your personal responsibility, as there should be. But maybe we levy the fine at a poor person, and give them additional time to pay based on their income? Rather than throwing them in jail and ruining their lives for nonpayment of a simple civil penalty?

[DarkTZeratul]

All of which requires you to either be dependent on other people to get to your job, substantially increase your commute time, or both. "Find a closer job" isnt a realistic solution for the vast majority of people.

Not to mention his hilarious suggestion of "take Uber," because if you can afford to take Uber to work every day you can afford to fix your car.

[Antiganon]

Not to mention his hilarious suggestion of "take Uber," because if you can afford to take Uber to work every day you can afford to fix your car.

Not to mention it, as it's so ridiculous as to not be worth discussing.

[lockedout]

I get it guys if you're poor everything should be free or $1 dollar?

[DarkTZeratul]

I get it guys if you're poor everything should be free or $1 dollar?

No, you don't get it. People who are poor generally need help to be not poor, because there are so many ways that they can't function in society as a direct result of being poor that make it extremely difficult to get out of being poor.

In any case, when poor people are unable to pay for mandatory things, punishing them by making them pay more money is entirely pointless, and putting them in jail for it even moreso. Both options make them less likely, not more, to pay for the original thing in the first place and thus serve no real purpose besides petty vindictiveness.

[Edge-]

I get it guys if you're poor everything should be free or $1 dollar?

Except nobody is saying that. We don't view the world in black and white as you appear to given your posts, we understand context, subtlety, nuance, and compassion.

If someone working 4 part time jobs because they can't find any full time work gets pulled over for a cracked windshield and they can't afford to fix it, but need their car to make it to their jobs to pay rent and put food on the table for their 2 kids, they shouldn't have their license suspended because they can't pay a fine that costs as much as fixing the crack. That's cold, heartless, and harms not only the individual but their children as well. It doesn't improve safety for the community, it provide any benefits to the community, and it only serves to potentially add yet another individual to the list of folks who end up on programs like Welfare or Food Stamps. Which, last I recall, you hate.

But why do you even care? You don't even vote, so I'm not sure why you care about politics.

[lockedout]

Except nobody is saying that. We don't view the world in black and white as you appear to given your posts, we understand context, subtlety, nuance, and compassion.

If someone working 4 part time jobs because they can't find any full time work gets pulled over for a cracked windshield and they can't afford to fix it, but need their car to make it to their jobs to pay rent and put food on the table for their 2 kids, they shouldn't have their license suspended because they can't pay a fine that costs as much as fixing the crack. That's cold, heartless, and harms not only the individual but their children as well. It doesn't improve safety for the community, it provide any benefits to the community, and it only serves to potentially add yet another individual to the list of folks who end up on programs like Welfare or Food Stamps. Which, last I recall, you hate.

But why do you even care? You don't even vote, so I'm not sure why you care about politics.

So if you're poor you should be able to drive around with a cracked windshield? Or should the repair shop do it for free or at a reduced rate?
I don't hate welfare or food stamps, my family was on both when I was growing up.

[Edge-]

So if you're poor you should be able to drive around with a cracked windshield? Or should the repair shop do it for free or at a reduced rate?

I think ones ability to pay for something like a broken windshield should absolutely be a factor in deciding how law enforcement would handle it, yes. Would that be looking at something like working with local community groups and local repair shops to get subsidies/discounts for folks in such a situation? Possibly, and that would be a pretty solid way of handling it.

I'm generally against laws that penalize people simply for being poor, but that's just me.

I don't hate welfare or food stamps, my family was on both when I was growing up.

Color me shocked then, and I stand corrected.

[lockedout]

I think ones ability to pay for something like a broken windshield should absolutely be a factor in deciding how law enforcement would handle it, yes. Would that be looking at something like working with local community groups and local repair shops to get subsidies/discounts for folks in such a situation? Possibly, and that would be a pretty solid way of handling it.

I'm generally against laws that penalize people simply for being poor, but that's just me.



Color me shocked then, and I stand corrected.

I wish someone would have paid for my vehicles maintenance when I had my first car but you know what I had to pay it on my own. I got tickets paid them too and I was poor with no bank account living pay check to pay check. I somehow made it work, got on payment plans for the tickets etc.