1. #4601
    Quote Originally Posted by Krothare View Post
    You do know that once every T21 piece is 945-960 then that plus Cloak/Soul over takes any 2p/4p combo w/ Belt/Soul right. And Ret is solid on like every fight in Antoruos, except for like Coven which shits on Melee in general.
    The problem never was damage. It was everything they took away with Legion's pruning. We would've been fine with just maintaining our utility, offheals, mobility and general gameplay. There was no logical reason to neuter Judgment or change its animation, no logical reason to make Blade of Justice 12 yards, no logical reason to make our AOE rely on an RNG element of mastery, no logical reason to make Word of Glory locked down with charges, etc etc.

  2. #4602
    Just going to point out that I'm pretty sure the add that takes increased holy damage doesn't exist on mythic Argus due to changes in P3.
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  3. #4603
    I'm half-tempted to equip Bracers of Jamgfaffglamar.
    It's already ridiculous how SoV can critical up to 2kk absorb.
    Sometimes I have to deliberately stay in fire to pop it

  4. #4604
    Quote Originally Posted by A Perfect Storm View Post
    I'm half-tempted to equip Bracers of Jamgfaffglamar.
    It's already ridiculous how SoV can critical up to 2kk absorb.
    Sometimes I have to deliberately stay in fire to pop it
    Most fights in Antorus have a lot of un-avoidable damage for you to benefit from shield...
    Garothi has the apocalyps Drive,
    Dogs have almost all the things hit many people,
    Council has a lot of aoe damage as well,
    Portal keeper has the portals pulsing,
    Shit fight has the Paraxis constantly hitting you,
    Immonar has the mines (you dont have to trigger, but for melee to have some wiggle room, it is preferable)
    Kingaroth has the purple balls and some raid wide damage i can't remember,
    Varimathras has the auras,
    Coven has the adds + stupid random debuffs,
    Aggramar has the tecnique, little adds and big add auras,
    Argus has the bombs (that never run out far enough...), the constilators and the exploding stars...

    Have fun with the crappy shield mate. I know i am...


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  5. #4605
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by killwithpwr View Post
    Most fights in Antorus have a lot of un-avoidable damage for you to benefit from shield...
    Garothi has the apocalyps Drive,
    Dogs have almost all the things hit many people,
    Council has a lot of aoe damage as well,
    Portal keeper has the portals pulsing,
    Shit fight has the Paraxis constantly hitting you,
    Immonar has the mines (you dont have to trigger, but for melee to have some wiggle room, it is preferable)
    Kingaroth has the purple balls and some raid wide damage i can't remember,
    Varimathras has the auras,
    Coven has the adds + stupid random debuffs,
    Aggramar has the tecnique, little adds and big add auras,
    Argus has the bombs (that never run out far enough...), the constilators and the exploding stars...

    Have fun with the crappy shield mate. I know i am...
    a stat damage shield that can crit for 2m vs a 15% damage reduction. i would go with the second every day of the week.

  6. #4606
    Quote Originally Posted by Stroggylos View Post
    a stat damage shield that can crit for 2m vs a 15% damage reduction. i would go with the second every day of the week.
    Meh, SoV as is for me atm, roughly 15-20% shield that doesn't need to be healed back upon taking damage and can crit to a bigger shield, thus larger DR. It dealing damage to boot.

    Granted SoV's weakness is that it is a singular shield, thus a DP'ish solution could block significantly more damage over time (i.e. 8s) compared to a single instance of burst damage that doesn't need to be healed back. That said, I still find SoV to be much more fun, and the bracers were my first lego and I actually had a ton of fun using them and trying to find creative ways to be a degenerate and pop a 4M shield.

    I had a few fights where SoV with the bracers did more damage than old war pots and it was actually fun. I get the bare bones utility you're looking for, but it was significantly less fun IMO.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2017-12-18 at 09:47 PM.

  7. #4607
    Deleted
    I understand the fun and bracers wer my first leggo as well. Got so spoiled in EN by these things and had quite some fun specially doding wq in suramar with bracers and holy wrath. Still the numerical thing is not something that can scale well during the expansion and the climax of content. When i look at it this damage reduction cd is one of the weakest in game.

  8. #4608
    Anyone got a FCFS (first come first serve) priority list that's up to date, and/or it changes depending on legendary items / other gear.
    Haven't touched WoW in a year (Legion sucks imo, go to hell with Diablofication of WoW) but started again now just to level up and get some gear on my characters before BfA.

    Any help would be awesome!
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  9. #4609
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Anyone got a FCFS (first come first serve) priority list that's up to date, and/or it changes depending on legendary items / other gear.
    Haven't touched WoW in a year (Legion sucks imo, go to hell with Diablofication of WoW) but started again now just to level up and get some gear on my characters before BfA.

    Any help would be awesome!
    There isn't a FCFS priority anymore since Judgment works kind of like Warriors Colossus Smash, in that it buffs your HoPo spenders (and Blade of Wrath if you have the set bonus). I'd recommend getting a rotation helper like Chesder's TMW profile or the AethysRotation which uses the SimCraft priority as the ability suggestion.
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  10. #4610
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    There isn't a FCFS priority anymore since Judgment works kind of like Warriors Colossus Smash, in that it buffs your HoPo spenders (and Blade of Wrath if you have the set bonus). I'd recommend getting a rotation helper like Chesder's TMW profile or the AethysRotation which uses the SimCraft priority as the ability suggestion.
    Should state that I'm not looking to min/max at all, Legion isn't my taste and made me quit a year ago, all I'm looking to do is to level up my Paladin (and later druid) for BfA.
    I figured Judgement is like a cheap mans Colossus Smash- in that it buffs your holy damage. Ideally I'd look for a type of addon / weak aura that in the style of the old CLC addon.

    I made my own WA for rotation guide back in WoD but that's long gone :P

    Thanks for the help
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  11. #4611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Anyone got a FCFS (first come first serve) priority list that's up to date, and/or it changes depending on legendary items / other gear.
    Haven't touched WoW in a year (Legion sucks imo, go to hell with Diablofication of WoW) but started again now just to level up and get some gear on my characters before BfA.

    Any help would be awesome!
    Icyveins is up to date regarding talent setups. T21 makes judgement hit so hard, it's crazy.

    I don't really know much regarding priority lists but I always prioritize chuckin' judgement hammers as much as I can. The T21 2 and 4 set bonuses smooth out the rotation a bit, and when you have 2 pc T21 and use judgement against 4 targets, the total crit damage is awesome.

    Regarding leveling, go with: http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/p...tribution/c1Cz for talents.

    With legos, the current really good ones to choose from are the Nathrezim cloak, Liadrin ring, Highlord ring and Chain of Thrayn belt. My stuff changed the priority on them with simming for a bit but it's now steady with Nathrezim cloak and Highlord ring(I love divine purpose + crusade).

    I know you mentioned that you're not looking to min/max at all but just keep the judgement debuff on targets(your artifact eventually lets the debuff spread to other enemies) and only TV/DS if the judgement debuff is up, unless judgement is taking way too long to come off cooldown.

    Something I highly recommend doing while leveling is buying Bear Tartare or Fighter Chow off the auction house. If you're interested in any of the new allied races coming out as well, be sure to do the storylines in the broken isles zones as well as ideally getting exalted with stuff like Highmountain, Nightfallen, Army of the Light and Argussian Reach.
    Last edited by Ryuji; 2017-12-28 at 09:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
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  12. #4612
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    Icyveins is up to date regarding talent setups. T21 makes judgement hit so hard, it's crazy.
    The issue with icy veins in my opinion is they seem like they copy and paste from another site while missing key things.

    They have both TFoJ and Zeal crossed off as bad choices while only covering after that if you have your T21 2 pc, Greater Judgement is the best choice, when really there's no reason to pick Greater Judgement until after you have your 2 pc anyway, while Zeal and TFoJ are still good choices.

    But maybe I'm just still bitter because for a while they had Holy Wrath as a "viable option", and they still have this-
    "Holy Wrath is a solid alternative, but the problem with it is that you need to be very low on health when you use it for it to deal high damage. In practice, this means that you will have to purposefully get low on health, which can prove extremely dangerous and often fatal during progression raiding. Choosing Divine Intervention (from the previous tier) can help reduce this risk, but we do not recommend Holy Wrath in general."

    Instead of just a "Never pick this".

  13. #4613
    Epic! Ryuji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The issue with icy veins in my opinion is they seem like they copy and paste from another site while missing key things.

    They have both TFoJ and Zeal crossed off as bad choices while only covering after that if you have your T21 2 pc, Greater Judgement is the best choice, when really there's no reason to pick Greater Judgement until after you have your 2 pc anyway, while Zeal and TFoJ are still good choices.

    But maybe I'm just still bitter because for a while they had Holy Wrath as a "viable option", and they still have this-
    "Holy Wrath is a solid alternative, but the problem with it is that you need to be very low on health when you use it for it to deal high damage. In practice, this means that you will have to purposefully get low on health, which can prove extremely dangerous and often fatal during progression raiding. Choosing Divine Intervention (from the previous tier) can help reduce this risk, but we do not recommend Holy Wrath in general."

    Instead of just a "Never pick this".
    Ah yeah fair enough. The whole check mark vs. X vs. ? doesn't really work imo. Yeah the fact that they crossed off TFoJ and Zeal totally(while adding a tiny bit of info regarding 2pc) is...odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
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  14. #4614
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The issue with icy veins in my opinion is they seem like they copy and paste from another site while missing key things.

    They have both TFoJ and Zeal crossed off as bad choices while only covering after that if you have your T21 2 pc, Greater Judgement is the best choice, when really there's no reason to pick Greater Judgement until after you have your 2 pc anyway, while Zeal and TFoJ are still good choices.

    But maybe I'm just still bitter because for a while they had Holy Wrath as a "viable option", and they still have this-
    "Holy Wrath is a solid alternative, but the problem with it is that you need to be very low on health when you use it for it to deal high damage. In practice, this means that you will have to purposefully get low on health, which can prove extremely dangerous and often fatal during progression raiding. Choosing Divine Intervention (from the previous tier) can help reduce this risk, but we do not recommend Holy Wrath in general."

    Instead of just a "Never pick this".
    I really don't understand how anyone can approach Holy Wrath in any other way other than "The most useless talent ever".

    In ST, for me, it will do a maximum of 7-8mil damage, after i get beat for 60~% of my health, meaning im in real danger of dying unless i save either bubble or LoH for that specificaly (when i would much rather have them available for many parts of many fights) and it still does less than 2 of (some of) the same spell (Judgement with 2 set t21, BoJ buffed by deliver the justice and 2 set 20 and ofcourse - Final Verdict. All these spells do arount 4 mil) while under the effect of crusade.
    Which means 2 gcds are effectively giving me the damage outup of this stupid single spell thats on a 3(!!!) min cd.

    On AoE it goes up to 4*8mil if the odds are in my favor and its not competing with 2 Buffed Divine Storms or Judgements above 50% mob health.

    This spell should have gone live as a pvp spell (either talent or baseline) and stayed away from PvE... Same as Retribution buff...


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  15. #4615
    You should be grateful you insolents!
    They worked hard to provide and yet you whine on and on like the whiny rets that you are!
    Kalgan himself profusely sweated for half a year straight to come up with such an idea while being secluded to a specific deep dark dungeon!

  16. #4616
    Epic! Ryuji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Perfect Storm View Post
    You should be grateful you insolents!
    They worked hard to provide and yet you whine on and on like the whiny rets that you are!
    Kalgan himself profusely sweated for half a year straight to come up with such an idea while being secluded to a specific deep dark dungeon!
    Don't forget his exact quote when criticism came his way regarding Holy Wrath.

    Equality is not a fun ability to use in any practical sense outside of PvP or solo content.
    Originally Posted by Kalgan
    Many players will likely not agree with this statement. Fortunately, there doesn't need to be universal or widespread agreement.
    I can't imagine any practical sense where I'm going to request my healers let me drop horrendously low to optimize my damage with this ability, and I know I'm not going to be the only one in high end raiding guilds feeling the same way.
    and then the kicker:
    Originally Posted by Kalgan
    Great, that's why it's a talent. Choose a different talent.
    Then if you look at talent usage on warcraftlogs, pretty much none of the higher parses use it. Good thing we can pick two other talents in that row though, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
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  17. #4617
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    Don't forget his exact quote when criticism came his way regarding Holy Wrath.


    Originally Posted by Kalgan
    Many players will likely not agree with this statement. Fortunately, there doesn't need to be universal or widespread agreement.


    and then the kicker:
    Originally Posted by Kalgan
    Great, that's why it's a talent. Choose a different talent.
    Then if you look at talent usage on warcraftlogs, pretty much none of the higher parses use it. Good thing we can pick two other talents in that row though, right?
    That design philosophy is more flawed than Ret is atm...

    At least if they gave us viable Talent choices to compete or fill in certain niches it woupd have been fine, but they didn't even do that....

    When testing will be on-going and if some of Ret's abilities don't change of get removed in favor of some other better options, we should start a Petition...

    Some things gotta change soon... Or Ret will remain flawed


    Madness will consume you!!!

  18. #4618
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Anyone got a FCFS (first come first serve) priority list that's up to date, and/or it changes depending on legendary items / other gear.
    Haven't touched WoW in a year (Legion sucks imo, go to hell with Diablofication of WoW) but started again now just to level up and get some gear on my characters before BfA.

    Any help would be awesome!
    Go check on the add-on hekili. By far the best rotation helper out there for me.

  19. #4619
    I am quite frustrated with T21 at the moment. I only ran ToS in Normal, so my Tier pieces were 900-905. Recently I started raiding Heroic, and have been gearing up in Normal and Heroic Antorus.

    All the time in the Ret Discord people are told to "sim it", and I do. With all the other items being the same (945+ Antorus neck, ring, wrist, Pantheon at 955, Eye of Command at 960, and all Ret DPS legendaries at 1000), the Heroic T21 4pc (952 overall), actually sims 3k lower for me than wearing my much lower T20 4pc with T21 2pc (944 overall).

    Now, a sim is just a sim, and a 3k DPS difference is minuscule, so it's a push. But why would I use the "better", much higher pieces if there's no appreciable sim difference, plus in practice I'm able to retain both the smoother gameplay of the T20 bonus and the big hit of T21's 40% Judgment bonus?

    Shouldn't higher iLvl always be better, especially when the Tier items are 25-45 item levels better? It's bizarre. Tier gripes will be a moot in Battle for Azeroth, of course, but the expac won't be here for a good while.

  20. #4620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    I am quite frustrated with T21 at the moment. I only ran ToS in Normal, so my Tier pieces were 900-905. Recently I started raiding Heroic, and have been gearing up in Normal and Heroic Antorus.

    All the time in the Ret Discord people are told to "sim it", and I do. With all the other items being the same (945+ Antorus neck, ring, wrist, Pantheon at 955, Eye of Command at 960, and all Ret DPS legendaries at 1000), the Heroic T21 4pc (952 overall), actually sims 3k lower for me than wearing my much lower T20 4pc with T21 2pc (944 overall).

    Now, a sim is just a sim, and a 3k DPS difference is minuscule, so it's a push. But why would I use the "better", much higher pieces if there's no appreciable sim difference, plus in practice I'm able to retain both the smoother gameplay of the T20 bonus and the big hit of T21's 40% Judgment bonus?

    Shouldn't higher iLvl always be better, especially when the Tier items are 25-45 item levels better? It's bizarre. Tier gripes will be a moot in Battle for Azeroth, of course, but the expac won't be here for a good while.
    To answer your question: T20 4P is just that good. Eventually as you start hitting some higher ilvl tier pieces it'll simply outdo it. But it's entirely possible that T20 may outperform T21 for a bit.

    If having a higher ilvl would always result in higher DPS, I'd be decked out in full M+ gear. But alas, not this tier. That's why there's no tier next expansion.
    Last edited by DrMcNinja; 2018-01-03 at 03:23 PM.

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