Why the U.S. Spends So Much More Than Other Nations on Health Care

[Spectral]

Case in point: EpiPens.

As low as $60/pair in CDN, >$600/pair in the US. For a product that cost almost nothing to produce. ($30 estimated by the NYT, but its lower)

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle31570003/
http://time.com/money/4481786/how-mu...costs-to-make/

Pfizer answer was something in the line of: We're selling many products to Canadian consumers, the negative publicity is not worth the price to make a few more bucks.

I want to point this out as another great example of anti-competitive litigation by pharma companies. Check out this quick history of the products developed to compete that aren't presently available. This is a batshit insane situation.

[Deleted]

nah threat would be more specific, like if i started listing addresses and personal info. but yeah im not into all that shit so no worries.

Yeah or you like magicly came flying across the world on your carpet. The only thing you would get for listing my address and personal info here is a permaban.

[Spectral]

Your stance is bizarre to me and endemic to the US.

You blame the laws and government instead of the wealthy people that exploit the laws and corrupt the government.

Same thing with the housing market collapse of 2008.

I expect individuals to behave badly when given bad incentives. The present incentives are absolutely atrocious - there's massive amounts of money to be made on ridiculous litigation and we have a system that supports it. It's much easier to change laws than it is to change what the purpose of companies is and what human nature will be.

As I've explained plenty of times, my preference is a true public option or outright single-payer system. I'm not on the "markets are best!" train for healthcare - I think there's good evidence that market failures would be abundant and even if they weren't, access for low-income people would remain a huge problem even with a decent market setup. My quibble isn't with promotion of single-payer it's with naïve claims about how the present system works and why it's expensive.

[Bodakane]

I expect individuals to behave badly when given bad incentives. The present incentives are absolutely atrocious - there's massive amounts of money to be made on ridiculous litigation and we have a system that supports it. It's much easier to change laws than it is to change what the purpose of companies is and what human nature will be.

As I've explained plenty of times, my preference is a true public option or outright single-payer system. I'm not on the "markets are best!" train for healthcare - I think there's good evidence that market failures would be abundant and even if they weren't, access for low-income people would remain a huge problem even with a decent market setup. My quibble isn't with promotion of single-payer it's with naïve claims about how the present system works and why it's expensive.

You're telling people they are wrong for blaming greed, because you think it is the laws. The point you're not getting is that the laws are nothing but a tool of the greedy.

Basically, the Pharma Bros of the US, funded laws to be put into place so they could maximize their profit and lessen competition. Instead of blaming these greedy fucks, you're telling us it is the laws they implemented that is the problem.

the wealthy will loophole anything they can to maximize profit. It doesn't make sense to blame the loophole.

[Spectral]

You're telling people they are wrong for blaming greed, because you think it is the laws. The point you're not getting is that the laws are nothing but a tool of the greedy.

Basically, the Pharma Bros of the US, funded laws to be put into place so they could maximize their profit and lessen competition. Instead of blaming these greedy fucks, you're telling us it is the laws they implemented that is the problem.

the wealthy will loophole anything they can to maximize profit. It doesn't make sense to blame the loophole.

I guess I don't know what to tell you. In this very thread I've referred to the people in pharma that you're talking about as "devious fucks". What more would you like me to say that's negative about them? My goal is for people to understand the mechanism by which prices rise - when they say "it's because there are profits", this is an oversimplification of how the captured economy works.

[Independent voter]

One thing that seems obvious is reduce the time for patents.

Drug patents are 20 years now let's reduce them to 10 years then inexpensive generics can be made.

Most new drugs are developed in America, why? Money so we don't want to kill the innovation.

[Ghostpanther]

I was looking through my insurance bills the other day and saw something crazy. I use a medical supply that you use daily, like you buy 30 for the month, and you can buy them online for about $1.25 each, or about $37 a month. I used to buy them myself before I saw that insurance covers them. Now my insurance pays for them, and I don't pay anything, which is good. But the company that supplies them for my insurance bills the insurance $125 a month for the same exact thing. The insurance has "negotiated" the price back down to $1.25 each, so they actually only pay about $37 a month.

But that's something I've noticed for a long time, everything is priced at what I like to call the "insurance price", but that causes you to get screwed for whatever you do that isn't fully covered by insurance. You still get that huge markup on everything.

Yep. My wife was at the dentist once and she overheard the receptionist ask the dentist what the charge was for a patient and he told her, " She has insurance, charge the highest price. "

[Tinykong]

Greed, bloat and idiocy.

My wife cut her finger a few months ago while chopping vegetables, it didn't stop bleeding for awhile, so we went to urgent care to see if it needed stitches. After sitting in the waiting room for almost an hour, the bleeding finally stopped, but we figured we're already there, have them look at it and make sure.

We go into the back, a nurse tells her to put it in a little saline cup to rinse the wound, the doctor comes in a minute or two later, says it looks fine, puts gauze and a band aid on it, and we're on our way. We spent probably less than 30 seconds with the doctor, and maybe 5 minutes with the nurse.

EOB comes from the insurance company later, they billed our insurance company $1200. The saline cup alone was over $100.

The system needs to collapse, and I hope it does.

[Saucexorzski]

The same thing that happened in housing with loans, the same thing that happened with college cost because of loans. You add "free" money into a system it will be abused.

[Ghostpanther]

Greed. One can come up all kinds of scenarios or such, but it boils down to a simple explanation. There is a big money making enterprise in the US with health care.

[AeneasBK]

You blame the laws and government instead of the wealthy people that exploit the laws and corrupt the government.

Same thing with the housing market collapse of 2008.

Isn't it fair to say that human nature being what it is, someone will push a law to the extent of the letter; and spirit be damned; as such, the laws need to be made so they can enforce their original purpose...

Or simpler put: You can't blame people for being people.

[Pyro1990]

Insurance companies try to screw the medical industry.
The medical industry tries to screw insurance companies.
Big pharma screws everyone.
Until politicians think about their constituants more than that fat check they got from lobbyist #5001 nothing will really change.

[Allybeboba]

Oh lawd, not this thread again.
Can we just make a “Bash America” mega thread and get it over with.
Better yet, a “Bash America” subforum.

Cheers

[Nellise]

Oh lawd, not this thread again.
Can we just make a “Bash America” mega thread and get it over with.
Better yet, a “Bash America” subforum.

Cheers

It's not bashing America when it's something many of us Americans have to deal with constantly and would like changed. Medical costs are the thing I spend the most money on every year and it's going to go up astronomically if I get approved for the new drug I want (it's priced at $750,000 for the first year because of...reasons).

[Deleted]

I guess there could actually be somewhat of an effect by having insurance that somewhat clouds the actual prizing of things as well that obfuscates people from realizing that something is up.

[Allybeboba]

It's not bashing America when it's something many of us Americans have to deal with constantly and would like changed. Medical costs are the thing I spend the most money on every year and it's going to go up astronomically if I get approved for the new drug I want (it's priced at $750,000 for the first year because of...reasons).

But many will and many have my friend.
And I agree with you.

Cheers

[oxymoronic]

Delusions of grandeur.

Europe, for one, doesn't need your protection. We have a nuclear stalemate versus Russia who is our closest threat, China is in no position, literally, to invade. After that it is middle eastern countries for whom again it is laughable.

The countries of Europe will be perfectly fine without your help.

Japan and South Korea are the only advanced countries that would be in seriously tenuous positions if you pulled out your forces.

calm down england boy you with USA not europe. deal with that fact. big brother is now little brother, get in line.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not bashing America when it's something many of us Americans have to deal with constantly and would like changed. Medical costs are the thing I spend the most money on every year and it's going to go up astronomically if I get approved for the new drug I want (it's priced at $750,000 for the first year because of...reasons).

so instead of being thankful this drug exists and you may be capable of getting it you want to cry and bitch about the system giving it to you? damn... now that is entitled.

[Pengekaer]

Greed, bloat and idiocy.

My wife cut her finger a few months ago while chopping vegetables, it didn't stop bleeding for awhile, so we went to urgent care to see if it needed stitches. After sitting in the waiting room for almost an hour, the bleeding finally stopped, but we figured we're already there, have them look at it and make sure.

We go into the back, a nurse tells her to put it in a little saline cup to rinse the wound, the doctor comes in a minute or two later, says it looks fine, puts gauze and a band aid on it, and we're on our way. We spent probably less than 30 seconds with the doctor, and maybe 5 minutes with the nurse.

EOB comes from the insurance company later, they billed our insurance company $1200. The saline cup alone was over $100.

The system needs to collapse, and I hope it does.

Wauw.
I understand investments are needed to create and test new treatment types, but I really don't see what stuff like you mentioned has to do with innovation, R&D or anything like that.

[Nellise]

so instead of being thankful this drug exists and you may be capable of getting it you want to cry and bitch about the system giving it to you? damn... now that is entitled.

Or maybe I understand more about this drug and its cost than you do? First, the company that is selling the drug didn't even develop it, they licensed it from another company, and they make public royalty payments to that company so we know how much it cost them. Second, the company admitted the only reason the price is that high is they have no competition at the moment and patients have no choice as it is the only treatment available. And I'm a mild case, I could continue living without this drug if I want to. The severe cases kill children while they're still infants so essentially the company is saying give us nearly a million dollars or watch your child die. Third, the company had a $1.2B profit in the 3rd quarter alone, about a quarter of that just from this drug. Their excuse of needing it to be so priced so high to fund R&D is specious at best when they're making several billion dollars in profit a year after accounting for R&D. And lastly, I understand that while the system is what is capable of giving it to me, if the system keeps incentivizing such drug prices it'll cause the whole system to collapse. The cost is so out of line that there was even a recent journal paper discussing the ethics of it.

[PosPosPos]

There aren't actually very many "alt-righters", unless you're just defining everyone that's to the right of center as "alt-right". If you're specifically referring to devious fucks like Martin Shkreli, the core issue there is not some market issue, it's regulatory capture and rent-seeking. There's absolutely no good reason for the generic drug that Shkreli jacked the rate on to have no price competition, they were effectively protected from competition by entirely bogus interpretations of patent and safety laws.

Pretending that 30% of the US isn't a particularly large number, I laughed hard.