Do you think Tier 21 is still bad?

[GamerDH]

EU forums are a dead wasteland, any and all threads made on the issue are buried under memethreads that blues happily hop into. Best time for feedback would be once BfA beta forums open up.

Hopefully NA DHs can make constructive feedback, however most people on the forums there see DHs as OP because mobile and bursty...

As for your feedback, keep in mind adding new abilities makes no sense to some. I'm one of such people, I don't believe we need more while we barely use the ones we have. More interactions, interesting talents, more focus on momentum and using mobility as a resource, these would do the trick though. But only if momentum is made easier to have all people that were unable to use it properly before. And I don't mean easier as by stacking the duration, that'd actually be a bad move seeing as DHs can burn out of fury in an instant with poor RNG, and damage boosting bites would be a joke.

Moving around for the sake of moving around just for the fk of it wasn't fun. It was just as braindead as anything else. Believe me I played Momentum (very well I must add) and while fun in certain fights like dragons ultimately it DOES NOT WORK FOR MYTHIC RAIDING. And we saw this clearly with many fights past EN where stack and move, You-have-5-feet-of-space-to-move and DONT FKN move at all were mechanics on a lot of raid bosses in NH, Tomb and our current raid tier.

And yes part of the problem was the goddamn duration. Move around like a freaking idiot every 6 freaking seconds was RETARDED. Do that or lose DPS... which is in fact the same DPS other melee have by default and without taking a risk (for no reason other than DUH DIP DOH! I wanna speed to the other side of the boss!!!!! ). And no matter what all that movement did lower our ultimate awareness. And was just one more factor that others controlled for us in what they did (standing around with debuffs, dropping ground effects nearby etc). Who among you can remember not being able to burn down your add in TOV because you had no fury but needed to stick to your rune??

Demonic seems to be the direction DH should go. It just needs from tweaking.

[mmowin]

I know this is dumb but how does this thread have 4000 views but only 56 people bothered to vote? FeelsBadMan. We DHs have to be more vocal as a community I feel. Anyway, awesome replies.

[Sylvaeres]

Let me requote myself.

It's PURE RNG. What your experience is might not be the one I'm facing.

I had tries in Mythic Kin'garoth in which I was toping after 3+ minutes with 2.3M DPS and in our kill I ended with 1.87M DPS.

That difference is ridiculous when really, all I'm doing is spamming 3 keys at different intervals.

Yes, I agree on the RNG part. my disagreement was strictly about the "almost beat by tanks" portion

[Ramellan]

At first I wasn't sold on T21, but I got my 4pc on the tail end of raiding last week and absolutely slayed on some meters. 300k dps increase was a surprise for sure. Some fights were a bit wonky like coven and kin where I feel I need a few more pulls before i get the fights down. I do enjoy some of the soul fragment mechanics and when to save and when to pick up.

I'm also surprised people are complaining about rng for this tier. I think T19 and T20 were rng based as well. You could have gotten a god opening or a trash opening and anywhere in between.

[Deleted]

Moving around for the sake of moving around just for the fk of it wasn't fun. It was just as braindead as anything else. Believe me I played Momentum (very well I must add) and while fun in certain fights like dragons ultimately it DOES NOT WORK FOR MYTHIC RAIDING. And we saw this clearly with many fights past EN where stack and move, You-have-5-feet-of-space-to-move and DONT FKN move at all were mechanics on a lot of raid bosses in NH, Tomb and our current raid tier.

And yes part of the problem was the goddamn duration. Move around like a freaking idiot every 6 freaking seconds was RETARDED. Do that or lose DPS... which is in fact the same DPS other melee have by default and without taking a risk (for no reason other than DUH DIP DOH! I wanna speed to the other side of the boss!!!!! ). And no matter what all that movement did lower our ultimate awareness. And was just one more factor that others controlled for us in what they did (standing around with debuffs, dropping ground effects nearby etc). Who among you can remember not being able to burn down your add in TOV because you had no fury but needed to stick to your rune??

Demonic seems to be the direction DH should go. It just needs from tweaking.

Well, to each their own. I liked DH most when we used Momentum coupled with Blur reset. Rotation was as braindead as other specs, skill cap caused by extra spatial awareness needed? That's why nemesis was made BiT, because the class couldn't top perform as easily as advertised. I also can provode legendary progression logs from as far as mythic EN, and I landed on Sephuz as my 1st and Raddons as my 2nd leggos, so trash and a stat stick respectively. Who remembers how bad 7.0 sephuz was?

I heard the argument that it doesn't work for ages and yet nobody can bring any argument besides it making shit harder/losing dps when forced to be stationary. That's the problem with the damage window, and could be reworked into something easier like a boost to next X casts of Y ability or something with a generous duration.
Hell, for the sake of it, my initial progression on augur had me using momentum. We wiped to Grand Trine lots of times, I caused 0 of them to this day.

4 seconds of more damage is just poorly implemented but it worked and it still works, albeit Nemesis trumps it a lot due to more damage for a lasting window that coupled so perfectly with 2min meta and still does with 1min constant meta of Demonic.

If you could pop all charges and benefit from them, momentum would be much better viewed and used more.

I do remember that, you could just Chaos Nova them while VRing out, throw some glaives, dash in at 0s for increased damage. You just had to mind your fury and not dump it all while you could risk having none in a crucial moment, as we used Demon Blades by then.

Demonic is great and I like it a lot, definitely my favourite from the current options in the tree, partly so because it is the only one that synergizes with tier. But that doesn't mean we should want to be stuck to a single build.
Momentum Build, Demonic Build, Stationary build, we have one spec so we should want some options, if tuned properly we could have something for all tastes. It all comes to tuning, reworking dead talents and burst CD talents and tuning the ones that see play to be closer to each other.

[GamerDH]

Could care less.. momentum should never be the TOP DPS spec for raiding again. All fights now and forever are about movement, lots of movement, timed movement, little movement and absolutely NO movement. If you like momentum right now go ahead and play it. No one is stopping you.

[mmowin]

Could care less.. momentum should never be the TOP DPS spec for raiding again. All fights now and forever are about movement, lots of movement, timed movement, little movement and absolutely NO movement. If you like momentum right now go ahead and play it. No one is stopping you.

oh pls no. I cant count how many times i died in EN due to that obnoxious build. Never again.

[Hubbl3]

I don't like the playstyle of T21 at all, but the huge itemlevel difference force me basically to play it -.-

[Ysho]

The only thing "bad" about the current spec is Nemesis. It's a stupid, punishing talent.

[GamerDH]

The only thing "bad" about the current spec is Nemesis. It's a stupid, punishing talent.

I have to agree on this. They really need to reconsider just how many outside factors are going to affect DH game play. Most other classes its "CDs up??" Bam push them. We have to consider -everything_. What am i targeting? What am I going to be targeting 10, 20, 30, 45 seconds from now? What am I going to be doing after that? WTF can happen that will prevent me from using this talent on said target? Is this target going to be dead and what else creature/humanoid will I have extra damage against after that? WTF is X target and will it work with nemsis after I kill this target Im' on now? etc etc etc.

[Dextar]

It's not bad but not having a quick way to watch how many souls you have out is really frustrating.

[Thraps]

I have to agree on this. They really need to reconsider just how many outside factors are going to affect DH game play. Most other classes its "CDs up??" Bam push them. We have to consider -everything_. What am i targeting? What am I going to be targeting 10, 20, 30, 45 seconds from now? What am I going to be doing after that? WTF can happen that will prevent me from using this talent on said target? Is this target going to be dead and what else creature/humanoid will I have extra damage against after that? WTF is X target and will it work with nemsis after I kill this target Im' on now? etc etc etc.

The majority of Adds are demons like the bosses with a few exceptions, for example a exception would be adds on Covern are elemental and not demon. So really the rule should be just pop nemesis on adds that die fast to give u the damage on everything, for example, High Command on the pull you can do your opener but wait til adds appear as these are demons, and pop it on the pyromancer that dies super fast and boom your nemesis works on all targets then.

[Mamut]

The majority of Adds are demons like the bosses with a few exceptions, for example a exception would be adds on Covern are elemental and not demon. So really the rule should be just pop nemesis on adds that die fast to give u the damage on everything, for example, High Command on the pull you can do your opener but wait til adds appear as these are demons, and pop it on the pyromancer that dies super fast and boom your nemesis works on all targets then.

Adds on Kingaroth also dont share the same type with boss, they are mechanical, on Aggramar theres also elemental adds. Its really frustrating when sometimes you waste half the duration of this buff because you target "wrong" target or half the targets does not match the current buff (in dungeons). They really should do something about this talent or buff Fel Eruption more so we can switch to other talent :/

[lolskillzz]

Shocked so many people dislike T21. I agree the bonuses are kinda meh (the haste buff i enjoy a bit due to enjoying spammy roations) but overall i have been enjoying playing demonic and found myself having fun dpsing again. I was bored of the old style.

I dont care for all the rng but i cant say its been worse than the last tier. Maybe I have been lucky on crits and souls but the dps usually evens out. My crit is also alot lower compared to last tier.

[mmowin]

Shocked so many people dislike T21. I agree the bonuses are kinda meh (the haste buff i enjoy a bit due to enjoying spammy roations) but overall i have been enjoying playing demonic and found myself having fun dpsing again. I was bored of the old style.

I dont care for all the rng but i cant say its been worse than the last tier. Maybe I have been lucky on crits and souls but the dps usually evens out. My crit is also alot lower compared to last tier.

Same. I'm having a blast with T21! I really enjoy it for mythic+. In raids, im doing ok with it. I feel like some pulls im in the 2 mill dps mark and others i can be at the bottom depending on how good or bad rng is. But overall, I really enjoy T21.

[Zapporius]

it would be cool if the demonic spec was based around something else than carpal tunnel inducing demon's bite. It's like being a combat rogue in mount hyjal all over again.

[GamerDH]

it would be cool if the demonic spec was based around something else than carpal tunnel inducing demon's bite. It's like being a combat rogue in mount hyjal all over again.

Since DA is such a shitty proc we really do not want to be hitting demon's bite at all. Like I never liked demon's bite ever but now... the idea of it is worse than before. If you are hitting Demon's Bite you aren't going to proc DA so I'm trying to keep my crit around the 57%+ mark. 60% is idea. 5% Demon's Bite or less on fights is what I'm aiming for. Again Blizzard made us incredibly vulnerable to RNG. And having extremely high crit may be our only escape.

[mmowin]

Since DA is such a shitty proc we really do not want to be hitting demon's bite at all. Like I never liked demon's bite ever but now... the idea of it is worse than before. If you are hitting Demon's Bite you aren't going to proc DA so I'm trying to keep my crit around the 57%+ mark. 60% is idea. 5% Demon's Bite or less on fights is what I'm aiming for. Again Blizzard made us incredibly vulnerable to RNG. And having extremely high crit may be our only escape.

But we need to spam Demon's Bite to generate fury even with high crit rate, there are times if you get unlucky you need to use demon's bite to get going again.

[Yuqii]

I'm loving the laserbeam spec with our base spell mitigation, various CDs and now absurd almost constant self healing makes me feel pretty unkillable in raid progression. Remember when our entire DPS was based on the burst in the CB window? Feels far less RNG now then back then IMO. Oh and now we're even more godly in M+.

[Hubbl3]

What itemlevel du you need for 60% crit? Granted I don't raid mythic so I my itemlevel is 960 but I'm nowhere near 60% crit