Do you think lockbox apologists don't know about the gacha market its imitating?

[dope_danny]

As companies have gotten greedier and pushed double dipping beyond on disc dlc to "funpay minibuys" where users pay real money for a chance at on disc content you often see people rightly call it the bullshit it is. Sometimes though you see people who shower money on it and go 'b-but its optional!' and they act like real money microtransactions in none f2p titles are a generous boon by the good guy developer, friend to the wise consumer. You would wonder why people would be volunteer shills for a brand defence force like that but in a few cases lately -with Destiny 2 more often than not- you hear these whales go "whats gacha?" which is surprising but in retrospect not unexpected.

So at least some appear not to know that the big push in the west for lootboxes comes from japanese mobile game scams like this:


But it makes me wonder how many who see anything japanese as 'weebshit' or 'kids shit like mario' don't know about this market they are unwittingly taking part in a clone of existing at all. With fanbases in games like Halo, Destiny, Gears of War and the like in particular having the most famously outspoken apologists for this practice which makes you wonder if it really is a case of them having no idea that its mobage stuff in their formerly feature complete for the base price games they play nowadays.

What do you think about this targeted market? is it as simple as inserting them in games where the core audience is less likely to be aware of the gacha scam already?

[Tackhisis]

What the hell is that video about?

[Deleted]

There are lockboxes in World of Warcraft. I have no idea what gacha means. Trying to say "gotcha"?

Also, if this is about lootboxes, then I'm sure you'll find that the precursor (or at least one of the most famous ones) of online lootboxes in games is Magic: The Gathering, the actual physical card game, released in 1993. Here's one of the first lootboxes in games:



And, that was, of course, preceded by other collectible card (baseball, for example) booster packs, although those weren't games.

[Justpassing]

I am so confused D:

[Fleckens]

Seems like you just wanted to make a thread about Kizuna Ai.

[Dispraise]

I don't speak anime, so you're going to have to forgive me for misunderstanding your point. Are you suggesting that more people would be upset about lootboxes in Destiny if they were aware that some Japanese mobile games also have lootboxes?

Are you further insinuating that the idea of paying money for a chance game when you don't have foreknowledge of the outcome, effectively the entire concept of gambling, started with Japanese mobile games?

[dope_danny]

There are lockboxes in World of Warcraft. I have no idea what gacha means. Trying to say "gotcha"?

gacha is slang coming from gachapon. Those little machines you see in supermarkets and malls where you put a coin in and get a random little toy. Since things like card booster packs already exist but have some form of resell or trade value these digital packs of one and done rng deals where like it or not you cannot trade the goods were associated with gachapon since by and large the assumption is throwing your money away because nobody will buy your little plastic toys off you. The term stuck with mobile games and now something like that fire emblem shows up and its part of the 'gacha' genre.

[Shadochi]

gacha is slang coming from gachapon. Those little machines you see in supermarkets and malls where you put a coin in and get a random little toy. Since things like card booster packs already exist but have some form of resell or trade value these digital packs of one and done rng deals where like it or not you cannot trade the goods were associated with gachapon since by and large the assumption is throwing your money away because nobody will buy your little plastic toys off you. The term stuck with mobile games and now something like that fire emblem shows up and its part of the 'gacha' genre.

You can always sell your account from said game, pretty big market for accounts out there.

[dope_danny]

You can always sell your account from said game, pretty big market for accounts out there.

True, it makes you wonder if that will ever be a thing over here. Forget selling your WoW account with a BiS top tier character list, will someone eventually pay thousands for an overwatch account with all the skins unlocked?

[Shadochi]

True, it makes you wonder if that will ever be a thing over here. Forget selling your WoW account with a BiS top tier character list, will someone eventually pay thousands for an overwatch account with all the skins unlocked?

Maybe if there is some skin that is super rare and only a few people have it.
But the way digital rare items work is different than physical so the value is also lesser. For rare physical cards or whatever they are rare because only a small limited number of them is printed, while digital skins are rare because the chance of getting them is low (most have no cap set on the amount that can exist). So unless it was some super-rare limited time skin, most digital items aren't as rare and valuable as physical (especially when you also consider editions and printing errors of physical cards).

[Remilia]

Gacha thing started in Korean f2p then spread out in Asia thereafter. More likely than not that's where western devs got the idea of these. I doubt it's an accidental clone, it more than likely is just taken directly from them. What hasn't followed suit though is the laws that Japan, China, etc have implemented.
Main starter in the west for this was Valve though with TF2.

[stellvia]

Gacha thing started in Korean f2p then spread out in Asia thereafter. More likely than not that's where western devs got the idea of these. I doubt it's an accidental clone, it more than likely is just taken directly from them. What hasn't followed suit though is the laws that Japan, China, etc have implemented.
Main starter in the west for this was Valve though with TF2.

Sorta. At least you can trade the stuff and even sell it for Steam credit. Pretty much every other one I'm aware of is a closed economy and doesn't allow trading. Also as I linked in the lootbox thread, this video is eye-opening to just how early this stuff was showing up. The current CEO of EA actually introduced it in a non-FIFA soccer game back in 2006 and pulled it into FIFA in 2009.



Other takeaways: Their dev costs are $300M less today than they were in 2012 and while actual game development/sales costs 40cents on the dollar, making revenue from MTX only costs them 20cents on the dollar. Its no wonder they cut dev costs while jacking up MTX...

[Yunru]

There are lockboxes in World of Warcraft. I have no idea what gacha means. Trying to say "gotcha"?

Also, if this is about lootboxes, then I'm sure you'll find that the precursor (or at least one of the most famous ones) of online lootboxes in games is Magic: The Gathering, the actual physical card game, released in 1993. Here's one of the first lootboxes in games:



And, that was, of course, preceded by other collectible card (baseball, for example) booster packs, although those weren't games.

Those have a real world value. The digital version does not.
I cant sell my lets say 100 skins for overwatch that i got for real money to other people for money. Its closed market.
With this cards, i can go to card game convencion and sell them there on on internet.

[stellvia]

CCGs are a bad comparison to online lootboxes. They're more closely related to sports trading cards that have a history dating back to the very early 1900s. They have real-world value, there are a set number of cards of each rarity per pack, you can trade or sell your cards for any price you wish, etc. You can even buy single cards or even premade decks from others they've curated, etc. Many of the cards are also an investment that rise in value over the years.

[MonsieuRoberts]

Danny that's an awful thread title, I figured you'd know better. You're not new around here.

[Yunru]

CCGs are a bad comparison to online lootboxes. They're more closely related to sports trading cards that have a history dating back to the very early 1900s. They have real-world value, there are a set number of cards of each rarity per pack, you can trade or sell your cards for any price you wish, etc. You can even buy single cards or even premade decks from others they've curated, etc. Many of the cards are also an investment that rise in value over the years.

They also need to say at least this:
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Rarity

Unlike lootboxes where chances are even worse.

[Remilia]

Sorta. At least you can trade the stuff and even sell it for Steam credit. Pretty much every other one I'm aware of is a closed economy and doesn't allow trading. Also as I linked in the lootbox thread, this video is eye-opening to just how early this stuff was showing up. The current CEO of EA actually introduced it in a non-FIFA soccer game back in 2006 and pulled it into FIFA in 2009.

[video=youtube;PTLFNlu2N_M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTLFNlu2N_M[/vide]

Other takeaways: Their dev costs are $300M less today than they were in 2012 and while actual game development/sales costs 40cents on the dollar, making revenue from MTX only costs them 20cents on the dollar. Its no wonder they cut dev costs while jacking up MTX...

Still loot boxes. Just cause EA made it worse doesn't make Valve any better.
Basically you can add as many qualifiers as you want, it's still loot boxes and they really pushed it.

[Deleted]

Those have a real world value. The digital version does not.

That's wholly irrelevant. Whatever perceived value the thing has is decided by the people who buy those things. Overwatch lootboxes, for example, have "real world value"; their value is their price. Card boosters' value is their price, until it gets manipulated by external forces, and card values have nothing to do with the boosters themselves at the moment of purchase.

A card booster is a lootbox. You pay an amount of money to gamble with the content.

[barackopala]

There are lockboxes in World of Warcraft. I have no idea what gacha means. Trying to say "gotcha"?

Also, if this is about lootboxes, then I'm sure you'll find that the precursor (or at least one of the most famous ones) of online lootboxes in games is Magic: The Gathering, the actual physical card game, released in 1993. Here's one of the first lootboxes in games:



And, that was, of course, preceded by other collectible card (baseball, for example) booster packs, although those weren't games.

Difference in magic card is that those have monetary value outside of the game itself, black lotus boi.

[Keile]

Difference in magic card is that those have monetary value outside of the game itself, black lotus boi.

That and is is very damn obvious that the point of the Card Game is to buy and collect them to make the best deck. You literally cannot play the game without buying cards.

Whereas the games with lootboxes charge you upwards of $60 or more upfront and then still try and charge you more for things that can give you an advantage ingame. They then purposely develop/balance the game in such a way as to do everything they can to make you buy these lootboxes such as making leveling or obtaining a new shiny thing very tedious.