Sylvanas' storyline in BfA

[Katchii]

This has been Sylvanas since Cata:
- Trying to act unfeeling whilst actually being emotionally broken
- Selfish

Nothing bad initially, but when it drags on like Tyrande it gets old real fucking fast. Either actually start progressing the character or just kill it.

But you've seen her as a character, seen her back story, seen how she's developed, what's she's gone through, what she's going through, what she's tried to do to fix or better her situation, you've seen character development for sure, just not necessarily change in her character. Change is not always necessary or good.

Tyrande has been given very little screen time since Cata, and what time we have seen has been terrible and actually self defeating. She's supposedly meant to be this incredibly poised, capable leader, fighter and priestess and what we've seen since Cata has been a bumbling, arrogant, practically helpless whiner who can't do anything without her "beloved," Malfurion.

My point is that as a character from a literary standpoint, Sylvanas is much better developed than Tyrande. Whether you like either one is subjective, but I think objectively Sylvanas is the better developed character.

[Deleted]

My point is that as a character from a literary standpoint, Sylvanas is much better developed than Tyrande. Whether you like either one is subjective, but I think objectively Sylvanas is the better developed character.

Meh, I get your point, but regardless, when comparing the 'screen time' difference between the two, Sylvanas will always have the upper hand, because she is objectively getting more attention.
And even after the long break she's been on since Cata, they couldn't reintroduce her in Legion without having a more-romantic-than-not relationship with a human.
It'd seem death is not the legacy of the Windrunners Alleria, having a human fetish is.

I'm just hoping it's going somewhere this xpac, if what Afrasiabi said about character arcs is true and she is getting the Illidan treatment.

[lightofdawn]

I cant imagine her being too happy about losing the undercity which seems odd since the horde startet the conflict so what did she expect. Shell probably go full lich king on the alliance and sacrifice herself in retaking the undercity with lillian voss as the new racial leader for the undead. And NO nathanos is not the better choice, hes a complete moron that threatens the player at all turns, bitch i could cleave him in half if i wanted to, he does NOT get to make demands of me

source on that?

[delus]

Nevermind that she's a fantasy stand in for the same rape allegory that was used on Kerrigan and has a story based around it, or that many of her motivations can be traced back to that rape-allegory from her defensive nature to her fixation on her followers having free will to her violent hatred of Arthas or her attempted suicide when he was killed. Nevermind that she's meant to represent an antiheroic viewpoint on the end-game of saving Azeroth not out of altruism but out of self-preservation. Nevermind that she's written to be a complex and multifaceted character struggling to hide her emotions from everyone including herself.

Nah. It all about the waifu-loving players of the game, mmhmm. That's her whole reason for existing. Mmhmm! No one can like her outside of fapping material.

Rape allegory? Are you serious? Hell, if that were true she would be a rape victim that became a serial rapist.

[Steampunkette]

Rape allegory? Are you serious? Hell, if that were true she would be a rape victim that became a serial rapist.

The Rape Allegory is the Mind Control. Specifically Arthas controlling her directly to force her to kill her own people.

It's why all Forsaken have free will and are never controlled by Sylvanas. It's a big part of her characterization and even plays a role in the Prologue to the "Before the Storm" novel with the formation of the Desolate Council.

Death and undeath are simply states of being, while mind-control is a violation of the innermost self with your choice torn away leaving you unable to resist. See also the Netflix Jessica Jones series which is fantastic.

[Deleted]

You know what would be great? The deal with Helya coming through as Sylvanas has to manage the Dishonored Dead and the Kvaldir joining the Forsaken/Horde, while Odyn takes her betrayal and the usurpation of Kvaldir as a direct affront and instructs the Vrykul to join the Alliance.

That would be pretty swank, with the Vrykul raiding seaside settlements and the Kvaldir bringing down Mists for their own raids.

I didn't know I wanted this up until this very moment.

Give me my moss covered mist commanding undead. Now.

[anaxie]

What do you think what will happen to Sylvanas? Personally (and I'm pretty sure most people agree with me) she's just been awful since W3. I swear, the only reason she's still alive is the fact that her fanboys will throw a shit fit, plus the fact that Dave Kosack jacks off to her. Her becoming Warchief is the reason why I gave up on the Horde, and why I started to appreciate the Alliance more. I seriously hope they make a conclusion to her storyline and make her answer for what she did

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts is that you already shit the bed with your opening statement.

Another Sylvanas Hate thread OH GOSH GOLLY OH BOY

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I cant imagine her being too happy about losing the undercity which seems odd since the horde startet the conflict so what did she expect. Shell probably go full lich king on the alliance and sacrifice herself in retaking the undercity with lillian voss as the new racial leader for the undead. And NO nathanos is not the better choice, hes a complete moron that threatens the player at all turns, bitch i could cleave him in half if i wanted to, he does NOT get to make demands of me

ahem.

Alliance started the conflict during Legion then kept it up with the events of Silithus.

Do you know why Teldrasil is burned? BURRR sure don't!

Also Nathanos is a boss Lillian is a self hating throwaway character shes not even a part of the Forsaken.

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The Rape Allegory is the Mind Control. Specifically Arthas controlling her directly to force her to kill her own people.

It's why all Forsaken have free will and are never controlled by Sylvanas. It's a big part of her characterization and even plays a role in the Prologue to the "Before the Storm" novel with the formation of the Desolate Council.

Death and undeath are simply states of being, while mind-control is a violation of the innermost self with your choice torn away leaving you unable to resist. See also the Netflix Jessica Jones series which is fantastic.

you might of turned me onto a new show I might see what this is about if it's connected to what you claim.

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Meh, I get your point, but regardless, when comparing the 'screen time' difference between the two, Sylvanas will always have the upper hand, because she is objectively getting more attention.
And even after the long break she's been on since Cata, they couldn't reintroduce her in Legion without having a more-romantic-than-not relationship with a human.
It'd seem death is not the legacy of the Windrunners Alleria, having a human fetish is.

I'm just hoping it's going somewhere this xpac, if what Afrasiabi said about character arcs is true and she is getting the Illidan treatment.

There is a long decades old history to that potential romance however.

considering Nathanos was directly sought and freed by her and was her champion in Vanilla and she personally trained him The ONLY human ranger while she was the surpreme Ranger General of Quel'Thalas much to the gossip of the other Elven rangers aghast at the muggle in their midst.

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I just want something to be done with her. She didn't do shit in Legion except work against one of our more powerful allies, then yell about useless warden towers. It felt like her becoming the warchief only existed to make the Alliance angry and usher in this new war. Literally anyone else could have made peace by just sitting down to a diplomatic talk with Anduin, but they chose the one literally everyone on the Alliance despises.

And we need some conflict in the Horde as well. Saurfang, she's one of the major reasons your son died, and you need to bring that up at some point. Baine your dad got them into the Horde and they have commited some serious attrocities. I don't want the Horde to break down and have another Garrosh, but people need to start standing up to her, and trying to change her mind. I'd actually love it if they succeed and Sylvanas stops being a selfish monster, but have the Alliance still despise her. I think she has a lot of potential to become something great and actually turn the Forsaken (and by extension the Horde) from the bad guys into "alright" guys.

Your butthurt is showing.

Shes not a selfish monster shes standing up to Alliance High horse imperialism.

HO HO HO Lordaeron belong to Stormwind!!! HO HO HO

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I think they're pampering her up to take the road Garrosh never did, then ultimately she'll have her Kerrigan sacrificial/transcendent moment. I'm not sre if the second part will happen in BfA or not, but she is a very strong foil to Anduin who we know will be around for a long time, so I could see her being the main Horde protagonist in the final arc if the writers decide to go there.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K7f...ature=youtu.be

stolen from offical forums btw

Sylvanas isn't going anywhere.

Genn hopefully gets put down however.

Gonna throw my money in on Jaina being the Number 1 Acolyte of N'zoths Cult too. Much will be enjoyed.

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I disagree. There are entirely moral undead characters within the canon of WoW, ergo she is to be blamed for her actions. Even if her personality -were- somehow rewritten, that wouldn't mean she is blameless, since existentially the person she -was- is dead and the person she -is- is evil.

Regardless of Arthas's actions, Sylvanas has made choices. But the way she's written, to me, suggests that she's actively -trying- to be this cold bitchy icequeen as a defense mechanism brought on by her rape-allegory of being mind-controlled by Arthas. Looking at her from that light, most everything she does is defensive and violent, only daring to leave the dark sorrow-filled sewers of Lordaeron when she is forced to (Like the invasion of Gilneas, the attack on the Broken Shore, and now Orgrimmar) or when she's seeking vengeance upon the man who destroyed her so utterly (Her campaign against Arthas in WotLK).

I'd much rather she wake up, realize that she is a part of this world and must exist on that basis, and recognize her wrongdoing. Yeah, 90% of the Alliance won't be satisfied until she's dead (And, like, 33% of the Horde!) but it's not about them: It's about the continuing story.

... I think it'd be cool, at least.

uhhhh her getting out of Undercity is the ENTIRE basis of the Before the Storm Novel.

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I'm fairly sure we're going to see a Redemptive Arc.

The Prologue of the new Christie Golden Novel, Before the Storm, shows us how unused to constant attention Sylvanas has become. How she's used to plotting in the darkness where no one interrupts her every 5 minutes with some issue of state. We're shown how she must balance diplomacy with desire and settles in on the fact that she cannot show favoritism, as she once did, to her chosen people but must treat all members of the Horde with the same support and leadership.

I think this will show her having no choice but to reconnect with the living, rather than sit in quiet, silent, darkness, reliving everything that was ever wrong in her life and unlife, growing ever more detached and disgusted.

And when her sister, Vereesa, dies at Tel'drassil, it's going to shake her. It's going to show her, and the world, that she is an emotional being rather than the cold and heartless bitch-queen persona she tries so hard to convince everyone, herself included, is the real Sylvanas Windrunner.

It should be interesting? But I sincerely hope they don't Raid Boss her or have her commit a Noble Sacrifice at the end of her arc. Instead I want her to live with the guilt of what she's done, and spend time trying to atone for her actions with a real continuing sense of effort on her part.

That would be cool.

Sylvanas has nothing to redeem.

Sylvanas squelched Alliance Imperialism in Cata

OH NO WHAT AN EVIL PERSON!

also guilt over killing Veressa? I mean does Veressa harbor guilt for gleefully butchering Blood Elves in the Name of the Blue Flag?
Whos the real monster here. I go with the traitor that gleefully murders their own people because they didn't want to deal with the struggles of what it took to rebuild their nation.

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Oh, absolutely! I don't want her to become a generic Superman Archetype character, either.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, her redemption arc is as follows:

Thrust into the light, she wavers and hates it.
She realizes she must become accustomed to being around the living.
Spending more time with the living, her own emotions start to re-emerge while still being relatively dim by comparison.
She is confronted by the spectres of what she's done wrong after this emergence of emotion.
While she still feels justified in her actions, she knows that the consequences must be dealt with.
She makes reparations for what she has done wrong, and makes a vow to be more vigilant in the future.
She remains an anti-hero, willing to make the harsh choices, but tries to minimize the hardship after the fact.

So, like, she'd still use the plague, but in a more responsible manner than blanketing the area with it. Taking the time to make sure it's no longer being tested on captives. Less torture, more spying. Things like that, while also actively attempting to diplomatically make amends for her misdeeds. Slightly less Anti, slightly more Hero, but still an antihero. A Lighter Shade of Grey.

misdeeds? You mean defending Her nation when Stormwind and Ironforge invaded?


One thing needs to be made clear because WoW does not show the scope of what towns are. heres the reality of one much talked about misdeed.

Southshore

Southshore was a major Port... the only port even for the Alliance left in the north. A Port Large enough because it was the Landing site for THE ENTIRE KINGDOM of STORMWIND refugees in end of the 1st War. That must be a sizeable fucking port.

OH NO Forsaken nuked it. Yes they did and they even said it might of been overkill they didnt mean to blight it that badly. But it was a huge threat not some cosey campy little cottage town of memaw and papa.

[Steampunkette]

@anaxie

Sylvanas's crimes:

1) Human Testing for Biochemical Weapons. She was in control of the Apothecaries when they captured humans and dwarves to test their original plague on. And even -after- the events at the Deathgate, she still had her people capturing humans and dwarves and feeding them plague-tainted food to test the efficacy of her "Living-Only" plague.

2) Torture. She does it. Yeah, so do many other people, but that doesn't make it okay.

3) Use of biochemical weapons in civilian-inhabited areas. The big issue of Mustard Gas that lead to it and other forms of chemical and biological weapons being banned wasn't what it did to the soldiers, but what it could do to civilians downwind, or who were later exposed to residue clinging to objects. Sylvanas has ordered the plague used in places like Southshore where civilians are in the area, and it's not like she couldn't know that it was going to wipe them out, too, in a gruesome fashion.

If she were to use the Plague in Tirisfal Glades, or in places where there are no Civilians (Like Gilneas City once the civvies were evacuated because of the Worgen Curse) that's cool 'cause it's being used against soldiers and civilian casualties are minimal.

That's really about it, to be honest? But one of those is a War-Crime and the other is a Crime Against Humanity (Or... Personanity? Whatever word would apply that makes it more all-encompassing than just humans because Warcraft races).

[Arrent]

I'm indifferent to her really. I think she's okay, but I don't think WoW has really setup any strong characters and/or character development outside of the novels.

I don't think Blizzard will turn her into Garrosh. I think she'll be made softer and yet stronger at the same time. The entertainment industry as a whole is on this "powerful women" kick and can't do without shoehorning pretty much any semi-viable character into this bill.

[anaxie]

@anaxie

Sylvanas's crimes:

1) Human Testing for Biochemical Weapons. She was in control of the Apothecaries when they captured humans and dwarves to test their original plague on. And even -after- the events at the Deathgate, she still had her people capturing humans and dwarves and feeding them plague-tainted food to test the efficacy of her "Living-Only" plague.

2) Torture. She does it. Yeah, so do many other people, but that doesn't make it okay.

3) Use of biochemical weapons in civilian-inhabited areas. The big issue of Mustard Gas that lead to it and other forms of chemical and biological weapons being banned wasn't what it did to the soldiers, but what it could do to civilians downwind, or who were later exposed to residue clinging to objects. Sylvanas has ordered the plague used in places like Southshore where civilians are in the area, and it's not like she couldn't know that it was going to wipe them out, too, in a gruesome fashion.

If she were to use the Plague in Tirisfal Glades, or in places where there are no Civilians (Like Gilneas City once the civvies were evacuated because of the Worgen Curse) that's cool 'cause it's being used against soldiers and civilian casualties are minimal.

That's really about it, to be honest? But one of those is a War-Crime and the other is a Crime Against Humanity (Or... Personanity? Whatever word would apply that makes it more all-encompassing than just humans because Warcraft races).

The human testing was on Scarlets

Scarlets that were already attempting genocide on the Forsaken.
Make me give a shit?

Torture. OH NO! and? what medival force in history never tortured anyone?

Biological weapons. Because burning people alive with flame magic is if your a mage is far more humane!
and banned? by who Garrosh? Garrosh wanted the forsaken to charge and hopefully all die. I don't think anything Garrosh "banned" is worth 2 fucks.

Southshore was a Major port contrary to the quaint little hamlet you see in WoW. It was destroyed its residents fled to Fenris Keep and took and joined the resistence and fought the forsaken and died there. Again make me give a fuck?

She locked down her borders while Alliance siege battlions were mobalizing in her borders during Cata. And She stomped the shit out of them in Hillsbrad at the Five Fingers and in Andorhal.

i mean your answers are a bunch of Allinace whining. The Alliance hates her a get it. But her nation stomping the fuck out of the Alliance in Cata doesn't make her a villan.

Why should she care about Civs? The Alliance views the Forsaken as having no right to even be alive. It's a constant back and forth of the Alliance wanting to commit genocide against the Forsaken and Blood Elves. And then you want to cry foul when they don't play by the rules when the result would be the destruction of their kingdom and race if the Alliance got their way?

For the Alliance. For the Bigots in Blue

[Scummer]

The Alliance views the Forsaken as having no right to even be alive.

Source please. I also mean the Alliance itself btw, there are blatantly individuals who loathe them because they are undead, however you only need to see their attitudes towards death knights to see that their attitudes towards the undead are not black and white like you seem to be making them out to be.
As it stand the Forsaken earn themselves a bad reputation because thats what their actions, methods and motives are and they do this as a faction, not as individuals. They arent thought of fondly because they are Forsaken, not because they are Undead.

It's a constant back and forth of the Alliance wanting to commit genocide against the Forsaken and Blood Elves.

Where is this coming from? Which zones, books, quests feature the systematic goal of wiping out the Forsaken and Blood Elves as a race of people?
Garithos? An Alliance commander operating under his own autonomy after the third war is hardly grounds to defend the actions of the modern Forsaken and decry those of the Alliance (Under Anduin no less) that the Alliances goal has been one of genocide outside of an autonomous commander.
Having said all that, the racism is spewed did happen and for some people in the Horde atm does still hurt their impressions of the Alliance, but to base the continued hatred of the Alliance based off of him is a giant overstatement.

Also people need to stop describing every action in WoW as genocide. I dont think people know what that word actually entails.

[Kithelle]

I cant imagine her being too happy about losing the undercity which seems odd since the horde startet the conflict so what did she expect. Shell probably go full lich king on the alliance and sacrifice herself in retaking the undercity with lillian voss as the new racial leader for the undead. And NO nathanos is not the better choice, hes a complete moron that threatens the player at all turns, bitch i could cleave him in half if i wanted to, he does NOT get to make demands of me

Well it doesn't matter much, the Alliance gets screwed and the Horde takes UC back.

[Biotec]

Well it doesn't matter much, the Alliance gets screwed and the Horde takes UC back.

They don't take it back, it just gets trashed so badly that no one can really use it. The Alliance can't hold on to it, but the Horde have to abandon it unless they can force the Alliance out. It's barely in a better state than Teldrassil.

[Scummer]

What are your thoughts?

For starters I dont see them killing her off. As it stands I think Blizzard should probably take a break from killing faction leaders for an expansion, although Im not sure on that position as it kinda means little is gained or loss in an expansion where Alliance vs Horde all out war is the focus. Even if some big bad shows up they arent just gonna go back to uneasy peace.

Honestly I want to see the Desolate Council be more involved. I see them as a good opportunity to develop Forsaken who dont blindly follow Sylvanas which opens up much more options for future characters in a race that has little internal diversity and isnt defined by their undying love of their Banshee-Queen. Either Sylvanas joins the council as its first among equals, or the council operates in such a way that curbs Sylvanas' actions, which in of itself creates some internal fun from a story PoV as I've enjoyed Lor'themar and friends along with the Council of Three Hammers. Having said that, it might make the concept feel a bit overused and make the factions that do operate by council feel more watered down and less unique.

[Kithelle]

They don't take it back, it just gets trashed so badly that no one can really use it. The Alliance can't hold on to it, but the Horde have to abandon it unless they can force the Alliance out. It's barely in a better state than Teldrassil.

It has always been trashed but they live in it...

But like I said...the Alliance gets screwed...Teldrassil is burned...Alliance loses Kalimdor...and Horde has 2 footholds in the Eastern Kingdoms. Basically Horde loses almost nothing once again and Alliance takes it up the exhaust pipe again.

[Steampunkette]

Stuff

1) It doesn't matter if they were Scarlets. Human Experimentation is wrong. Using living beings to test out biochemical weapons is a horrible thing to do and a crime against humanity. It's the kind of thing Mengele did. That you don't feel bad about it because the victim is loathsome doesn't matter: It's still a crime.

2) Yeah, other people do it. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to do. It's an ineffective act of cruelty that ultimately causes pain for pain's sake, like she did with Koltira Deathweaver. She didn't want information out of him, just to keep him in pain for as long as she could.

3) Flamethrowers kill soldiers. Biological weapons kill EVERYONE. Again, it's about the damage they do to the civilian populace, which I explicitly put into my post. And no, Anaxie, I wasn't referring to Garrosh banning them. I was referring to the 1925 Geneva Convention for why chemical weapons were banned in Wartime in reality. Specifically the fact that they weren't banned because they were "Inhumane" to the soldiers, but because of the uncontrollable collateral damage.

This makes the 3rd or 4th time I've been called Alliance on the forum, against the 8 or so times I've been called Horde. I'm pretty faction-neutral and enjoy the story from both sides.

Sylvanas should care about Civilians because being as bad as the people who are trying to commit genocide against you doesn't make you a good person. It makes you as bad as them.

[delus]

It has always been trashed but they live in it...

But like I said...the Alliance gets screwed...Teldrassil is burned...Alliance loses Kalimdor...and Horde has 2 footholds in the Eastern Kingdoms. Basically Horde loses almost nothing once again and Alliance takes it up the exhaust pipe again.

Hopefully undercity caves in and Lordaeron becomes a useless crater. I want to see total destruction with the upper ruins collapsing into undercity, rendering the land completely useless.

[ZetherosCraig]

My theory. Sylvanas loses 1 or more of her remaining Valkyr during Battle of Lordaeron. This will cause her to become increasingly desperate and unstable.

[anaxie]

Source please. I also mean the Alliance itself btw, there are blatantly individuals who loathe them because they are undead, however you only need to see their attitudes towards death knights to see that their attitudes towards the undead are not black and white like you seem to be making them out to be.
As it stand the Forsaken earn themselves a bad reputation because thats what their actions, methods and motives are and they do this as a faction, not as individuals. They arent thought of fondly because they are Forsaken, not because they are Undead.



Where is this coming from? Which zones, books, quests feature the systematic goal of wiping out the Forsaken and Blood Elves as a race of people?
Garithos? An Alliance commander operating under his own autonomy after the third war is hardly grounds to defend the actions of the modern Forsaken and decry those of the Alliance (Under Anduin no less) that the Alliances goal has been one of genocide outside of an autonomous commander.
Having said all that, the racism is spewed did happen and for some people in the Horde atm does still hurt their impressions of the Alliance, but to base the continued hatred of the Alliance based off of him is a giant overstatement.

Also people need to stop describing every action in WoW as genocide. I dont think people know what that word actually entails.

Foreign invasion all over Lordaeron in Cataclysm?

Repeated attacks and crimes against the blood Elves?

The Alliance has always been the instaigator in this foreign exchange. Do you see the Forsaken crawling up Stormwind or Ironforges ass? Alliance in Durotar, Alliance in Western Plaguelands, Alliance in Barrens, Alliance in Silverpine, Alliance in Hillsbrad. Maybe you would keep getting killed en mass by the forsaken if you stayed in your own nations lands.

It's no surprise she routed the armies time and time again. She was the Ranger General of Quel'Thalas afterall and was the SINGLE invdividual that expelled Arthas from Lordaeron and the Nathrezim Leadership.

BFA isn't going to end in the Alliances favor. Contrary I think its going to end with the hot headed Alliance who think they are the honorable good guys having to concede that they have to share this world with the horde and get along.

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Hopefully undercity caves in and Lordaeron becomes a useless crater. I want to see total destruction with the upper ruins collapsing into undercity, rendering the land completely useless.

I mean almost the entire Broken Isles is also conprised of 2 Horde capitals now.

Zandalar is a 16,000 year old empire holds a Titan Machine, and nevermind the many troll LoA that we garner favor from.

Kul'Tiras is 4 seperate groups only one of which Jainas Mom and Jaina has influence within. Half the Groups or Jaina or her Mom herself are have a 50/50 chance of being N'zoth acolytes at this point.

Give it up for the Alliance!

l

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1) It doesn't matter if they were Scarlets. Human Experimentation is wrong. Using living beings to test out biochemical weapons is a horrible thing to do and a crime against humanity. It's the kind of thing Mengele did. That you don't feel bad about it because the victim is loathsome doesn't matter: It's still a crime.

2) Yeah, other people do it. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to do. It's an ineffective act of cruelty that ultimately causes pain for pain's sake, like she did with Koltira Deathweaver. She didn't want information out of him, just to keep him in pain for as long as she could.

3) Flamethrowers kill soldiers. Biological weapons kill EVERYONE. Again, it's about the damage they do to the civilian populace, which I explicitly put into my post. And no, Anaxie, I wasn't referring to Garrosh banning them. I was referring to the 1925 Geneva Convention for why chemical weapons were banned in Wartime in reality. Specifically the fact that they weren't banned because they were "Inhumane" to the soldiers, but because of the uncontrollable collateral damage.

This makes the 3rd or 4th time I've been called Alliance on the forum, against the 8 or so times I've been called Horde. I'm pretty faction-neutral and enjoy the story from both sides.

Sylvanas should care about Civilians because being as bad as the people who are trying to commit genocide against you doesn't make you a good person. It makes you as bad as them.

Who says human experimentation is wrong?

Humans?

Orcs Cleave theme, Trolls eat them, Undead poke them, Sin'dorei incinerate them

theres no crimes only in your lawful good eyes of the Alliance are these crimes. The Blue is on such an exceeding tall high horse it can't see it's own flaws or accept that the Horde will exists because of the spiteful actions of the Alliance.

Koltira is alive isn't he.

Koltira was a traitor. he cost Forsaken lives, a VAL'KYR was lost, and they almost lost the Plaguelands because he was a treasonous little fuck and the alliance took the intitive on this pathetic wretchs mistake.

Koltira is a failure of a character, failure of a general, and deserved to be punished for his actions.

Why should Sylvanas NOT kill the children. Give me a good reason and keep in mind real world rules doesn't apply to a setting where a nation of Undead is a dominate National power.

Your refering the the a real world document banning weapons in a fantasy setting where people shoot lightning and fire from their hands or corpses walk the field into battle. That was your first mistake.

Plague is no worse then being burned from the inside out with Fel Magic, Lightning, or spiked with frost shards like a pincushion.

It still in the end goes back to the Alliance doesn't recognize the rights for the Forsaken to exist or the claims to the land they fought and died for in the Third War and it's aftermath. Thats where all the animosity came from.

Gilneas was a casualty of Genns own doing.

The Worgen in Shadowfang were a thread for over a decade when Genn Allowed Arugal to study them to keep the Scourge out.
Genn fucked every single human of Lordaeron who are mostly forsaken now by sitting behind his wall and tipping his tophat to them as the Scourge ravaged the surrounding kingdoms.

The Wall came down and Sylvanas was expansing on a NON Alliance affilated kingdom but one who deserved every ounce of Karma that decending upon their kingdom.

Youll never prove the forsaken or Sylvanas did anything wrong unless you do it through the eyes of Alliance losses which only benefits the Horde and strengthens Sylvanas position as one of the Greatest Leaders of a Nation that was built from literally nothing in only 10-15 years.

[Steampunkette]

Who says human experimentation is wrong?

Humans?

Orcs Cleave theme, Trolls eat them, Undead poke them, Sin'dorei incinerate them

theres no crimes only in your lawful good eyes of the Alliance are these crimes. The Blue is on such an exceeding tall high horse it can't see it's own flaws or accept that the Horde will exists because of the spiteful actions of the Alliance.

Holy shit, you're really hard on this whole thing where you think I'm an Alliance Player... You should talk to some of the others on the forum who spit on me for being a Hordie.

Experimenting on sapient beings without consent is a ghastly crime -in reality-. It's kind of a big thing that the Tuskegee experiments were a horrible act perpetrated by the US government. That Sylvanas does it to Scarlets doesn't make it any better.

Like. You understand that I'm talking about this from a perspective of being outside of the game world in a viewpoint that is as objective as people can get, right? 'Cause right now it looks like you are unable to separate fantasy from reality and that's honestly kinda scary...