Why Arms has so many buttons?

[Xkiller9000]

this is why this game is dying - all people do is complain about somethings too hard

heres an idea, LEARN IT, GIT GUD

[Deleted]

In Wrath I had somewhere around 50 keybinds.

And this post brings me an endless amount of rage. Which I cannot dump, because due to reasonings like OP's, we got Heroic Strike taken away from us.
Among the long list of things I used to style on bossfights and in PvP, and that I lost to this mentality.
Shame on you OP.

In order to show my disdain, I'll educate you on how many buttons you should press:
Charge
Rend
CS
MS
Slam
Execute

To this, you add the situational ccs and interrupt:
Shockwave/ Stormbolt
Pummel

And your CDs
Recklessness
Avatar (if talented)

You'll then need your utilities
Heroic Leap
Rallying Cry

And a handful bind to your defensives and to Victory Rush, because it saves lives:
Die by the Sword
Victory Rush

I can cover this whole package with just 1 2 3 4 5 Q E R T F C, and some modifiers.

Git gud.
Sincerely,
a grizzled veteran.

EDIT
Hell I'll even share my binds since I'm a borderline samaritan

1 - Execute
2 - Mortal Strike
3 - Slam
4 - Rend
5 - Shockwave / Stormbolt

Q - Charge
E - Heroic Leap
R - Pummel
T - Rallying Cry
F - Hamstring
C - Whirlwind

Shift + 1 - Fear
Shift + 5 - Bladestorm
Shift + R - Colossus Smash
Shift + F - Victory Rush
Shift + C - Cleave

Ctrl + R - Warbreaker

Alt + wheel up - Motherf*n reck
Alt + wheel down - Die by the Sword
Alt + \ - Berserker Rage

In PvP I cover the rest of shift+2 shift+3 and shift+4 with not much of an issue given those were spells I always had (looking at you Spell Reflection and Banner).
Also, macros go a long way to make a rotation or a button count more manageable.

Now please go learn your buttons.

[Archimtiros]

In Wrath I had somewhere around 50 keybinds.

And this post brings me an endless amount of rage. Which I cannot dump, because due to reasonings like OP's, we got Heroic Strike taken away from us.
Among the long list of things I used to style on bossfights and in PvP, and that I lost to this mentality.
Shame on you OP.

Not to burst your rage bubble, but Wrath didn't have any more rotational buttons than we do now. In fact, most specs had less. What you had extra were a whole bunch of superfluous buttons relating to utility, other specs, or simply seldomly used.

The glasses people look through to claim that Wrath was somehow the heyday of nuanced design are extremely rose-tinted.

[glowzone]

It's been a while since I did the mage tower for arms (I play mostly prot these days), but I remember laughing my way to the end of that challenge because arms rotation just felt so awkwardly simple and incomplete that I could not believe I was doing it correctly.

And yes, I was doing it correctly.

[Deleted]

Not to burst your rage bubble, but Wrath didn't have any more rotational buttons than we do now. In fact, most specs had less. What you had extra were a whole bunch of superfluous buttons relating to utility, other specs, or simply seldomly used.

The glasses people look through to claim that Wrath was somehow the heyday of nuanced design are extremely rose-tinted.

I was not talking about strict rotational abilities.

However, just by the 21-s rotation, I had:

Rend
Ms
Overpower
Execute (proc only)
Slam
Bladestorm (two ticks only, but hey)
Heroic Strike/ Cleave

Which I was then to add, when necessary
Sunder Armor
Shattering Throw

And if I was Arms Incite (which I was by the end of the expansion and given any modicum of decent gear) I added Thunder Clap aswell, mostly with anywhere from 3+ targets upwards.

That's without all the different shenanigans I could pull with the complete kit of the spec, that we both know were available, and without the TfB minigame.
And I'd like to add that it was a gcd-locked rotation, having to plan a couple globals in advance what was falling off and what should be reapplied.

It's not a matter of rose tinted glasses. To me, Wrath was the pinnacle of the spec, with Cataclysm coming as a close second given how intelligently the stancedance was put inside the rotation.

[Swizzington]

Ups, my bad. So even less than

Fewer....!

[spdr]

Bring back stances, problem solved.

[Archimtiros]

I was not talking about strict rotational abilities.

However, just by the 21-s rotation, I had:

Rend
Ms
Overpower
Execute (proc only)
Slam
Bladestorm (two ticks only, but hey)
Heroic Strike/ Cleave

Which I was then to add, when necessary
Sunder Armor
Shattering Throw

And if I was Arms Incite (which I was by the end of the expansion and given any modicum of decent gear) I added Thunder Clap aswell, mostly with anywhere from 3+ targets upwards.

That's without all the different shenanigans I could pull with the complete kit of the spec, that we both know were available, and without the TfB minigame.
And I'd like to add that it was a gcd-locked rotation, having to plan a couple globals in advance what was falling off and what should be reapplied.

It's not a matter of rose tinted glasses. To me, Wrath was the pinnacle of the spec, with Cataclysm coming as a close second given how intelligently the stancedance was put inside the rotation.

Ok, but you hardly ever use Sunder, never used Shattering Throw, rarely used Heroic Throw, Heroic Strike and Cleave were never used together, the list goes on. There were a lot of buttons, but hardly half of them were ever used in conjunction with one another.

Yeah, there were a lot of buttons back then, no argument there, but there was a lot of redundancy, and most of the buttons were worthless. Did Charge and Intercept need to be separate buttons? Did Shattering Throw need to exist (hell does Heroic Throw now?), or Sunder, or Heroic Strike/Cleave need to be separate buttons?

You could fill that out with even more buttons for stance dancing, etc, but it's all fairly superfluous.

FoB Arms might not be the pinnacle of engagement, but there's a lot of room for other talents and alternate playstyles. By contrast the actual rotations from Wrath were really bland.

Wrath was a good time to be a Warrior for sure, but was a far cry from being the pinnacle of design.

- - - Updated - - -

Bring back stances, problem solved.

Stance dancing created a lot of gameplay problems; although enjoyed by many, removing them was an overall gameplay improvement.

[spdr]

Heroic throw is good for pulling groups out of los, or keeping rogues/druids in combat in PvP. Shattering throw was used a lot if you pvpd. Charge and intercept having separate cds added mobility.

[Raugnaut]

Are you kidding me? Do you take any of your active Talents and PvP Talents? Just log in and check how many buttons you can have as Arms, compared to Furry, Affliction or Vengeance. MW Monk and Holy Priest are two exceptions: they both have even more buttons than Arms.
Obviously you guys just take passive talents, but that's your problem.

Arms: dmg only abilities:
1.Slam
2.Victory rush
3.Mortal strike
4.Execute
5.Colosus Smash
6.Cleave
7.Hamstring
8.Whirlwind
9.Battle cry
10.Bladestorm
11.Charge
12.Heroic Throw
13.Overpower
14.Rend
15.Warbreaker
+ at least two active pvp talents
+ non damaging abilities ( 5 or 6 of them, maybe 7)

Fury:
1.Execute
2.Bloodthirst
3.Furious Slash
4.Rampage
5.Enrage
6.Raging Blow
7.Whirlwind
8.Battle cry
9.Charge
10.Odyn's Fury
11.Heroic throw
All passive talents, because of poor choice of active ones.
Maybe one active pvp talent

Who's trolling now?
I didn't say i want less abilities, i just wanna now how do you bind all of these ...

Hamstring and Heroic Throw are almost never used in PvE.

Also, I would suggest putting in keybinds on the R, T, F, G, Z, and C buttons.

Finally, you can swamp your keybinds to use ESDF for movement rather then WASD, as you can then add Y, H, V, Q, A, W, and X to the list of available keybindings.


Also, the BEST thing to do is get a gaming mouse. You know with the 6+ extra buttons?

[Archimtiros]

Heroic throw is good for pulling groups out of los, or keeping rogues/druids in combat in PvP. Shattering throw was used a lot if you pvpd. Charge and intercept having separate cds added mobility.

Incredibly niche uses aren't useful, you can pull groups out of los with other buttons too (hell, you can just taunt one). Shattering Throw did have some PvP use, but again, was fairly niche and there's a reason it's gone now.

Charge and Intercept being separated didn't add mobility, Charge couldn't be used in combat (without a high tier prot talent), and you rarely, if ever, needed to intercept immediately after initiating. Their merger has been one of the best Warrior QoL improvements to date.

[spdr]

Incredibly niche uses aren't useful, you can pull groups out of los with other buttons too (hell, you can just taunt one). Shattering Throw did have some PvP use, but again, was fairly niche and there's a reason it's gone now.

Charge and Intercept being separated didn't add mobility, Charge couldn't be used in combat (without a high tier prot talent), and you rarely, if ever, needed to intercept immediately after initiating. Their merger has been one of the best Warrior QoL improvements to date.

You must only raid.

[Deleted]

Ok, but you hardly ever use Sunder, never used Shattering Throw, rarely used Heroic Throw, Heroic Strike and Cleave were never used together, the list goes on. There were a lot of buttons, but hardly half of them were ever used in conjunction with one another.

Yeah, there were a lot of buttons back then, no argument there, but there was a lot of redundancy, and most of the buttons were worthless. Did Charge and Intercept need to be separate buttons? Did Shattering Throw need to exist (hell does Heroic Throw now?), or Sunder, or Heroic Strike/Cleave need to be separate buttons?

You could fill that out with even more buttons for stance dancing, etc, but it's all fairly superfluous.

FoB Arms might not be the pinnacle of engagement, but there's a lot of room for other talents and alternate playstyles. By contrast the actual rotations from Wrath were really bland.

Wrath was a good time to be a Warrior for sure, but was a far cry from being the pinnacle of design.

I respectfully disagree.

Sunder was your job if there was no Warrior tank (and let's face it, there probably wasn't), and I admit my fallacy in including Bladestorm and Shattering Throw that due to their cooldown are not rotational abilities.
But Shattering was a decent raid dps cooldown, up until a certain point which I don't recall (probably late ToGC).
And Cleave and HS covered different purposes, as well as Charge and Intercept. The latter couple in particular, one to generate Rage and the other spending it but granting a longer stun.

I agree with the forced redundancy in some cases, I'd have parted with Slam instead of Heroic Strike and Overpower, needing Rend was pretty clunky since you needed basically two globals before doing damage. But it's a pretty long argument for possibly another thread.

And yes, the whole stancedance mechanic, as flavorful as it was, was really just solved by a bunch of macros since there was basically no reason not to, up to the point where stances were switched for bonuses in very specific scenarios.

What I don't agree with is the rotation being more bland then rather than now. I'd choose Wrath's in an heartbeat alongside with active Sweeping Strikes and Rend doing something more than just giving me a pretty dot.
But I agree on disagreeing, and I think you do too.

[Archimtiros]

I respectfully disagree.

Sunder was your job if there was no Warrior tank (and let's face it, there probably wasn't), and I admit my fallacy in including Bladestorm and Shattering Throw that due to their cooldown are not rotational abilities.
But Shattering was a decent raid dps cooldown, up until a certain point which I don't recall (probably late ToGC).
And Cleave and HS covered different purposes, as well as Charge and Intercept. The latter couple in particular, one to generate Rage and the other spending it but granting a longer stun.

I agree with the forced redundancy in some cases, I'd have parted with Slam instead of Heroic Strike and Overpower, needing Rend was pretty clunky since you needed basically two globals before doing damage. But it's a pretty long argument for possibly another thread.

And yes, the whole stancedance mechanic, as flavorful as it was, was really just solved by a bunch of macros since there was basically no reason not to, up to the point where stances were switched for bonuses in very specific scenarios.

What I don't agree with is the rotation being more bland then rather than now. I'd choose Wrath's in an heartbeat alongside with active Sweeping Strikes and Rend doing something more than just giving me a pretty dot.
But I agree on disagreeing, and I think you do too.

• The most common tank was Warrior, even throughout Wrath. Sure, you had to use it if nobody else would, but no DPS Warrior in their right mind wanted to; removing this was a good thing.
• Shattering Throw wasn't additive with Sunder, so it wasn't used as a dps cd until MoP, and even then it was an extremely inconsequential one. Removing this too, was a good thing (with the exception of PvP, but that's a whole other topic of balancing).
• Cleave and HS cover different purposes (ST/AOE), sure, but they didn't need to. Using one or the other had no impact on playstyle, making it the definition of bloat.
• Charge and Intercept didn't "cover different purposes" anymore then than they would now. Charge was an out of combat opener, Intercept was an in-combat gap closer. There's absolutely no logical way to claim that being two separate spells isn't redundant.

Feel free to disagree, but picking who gets to be on Sunder bitch duty (probably the Arms tbf), deciding if you want to press Cleave instead of HS (is there more than one target?), or making a "nocombat Charge, combat Intercept" macro isn't nuanced, engaging, or even rotational.

The sum total of the "rotation" (priority list) was

• Refresh Rend
• Mortal Strike every 5 seconds
• Proc Overpower every 6s
• Proc Execute
• Heroic Strike if high on rage (not as common as Arms)
• Slam

And don't forget 5 minute Reck, because 1-2 use per encounter CDs are fun!

Neither Fury nor Arms were certainly bad then, but they really weren't all that complicated or nuanced either. The rotation was mainly just procs - which is fine, some people like procs, but you've got those in Legion too - Ayala's (nerfed as though it is), and Overpower still exist, as does Rend. Specs now may not be more buttons, or even more challenging, but there's certainly a lot of more mechanical involvement and nuance.

Point is that streamlining isn't always bad. Getting rid of excess buttons and merging superfluous ones is good. Even simple specs can still be challenging, especially when maintaining them over the course of a long encounter (especially with largely more involved encounter mechanics these days).

[VyersReaver]

TBF, he's not wrong. We have a lot of clutter abilities that you shouldn't throw away from the bound keys. Barely manage with 7 numbered keys and 12 Naga buttons. But I bind active defensives as well, sooooo...

[Deleted]

A well written list

I'm answering to two bullets alone just because for the most part I agree with you - in today's PvE environment where encounters are more complex, smaller rotations with added nuances are probably better than gcd locked ones. I just enjoyed it more, thus my overall disagreement.

Anyway,
in my experience, starting probably at Twin Val'kyrs, tank Warriors slowly phased away, with a massive takeover by the time the server I played in reached Sindragosa with the soon-to-be Light of Dawns obviously leading the charge with Druids and Blood DKs (and the inevitable mass bandwagon that was the Paragon world first aftermath). That's due to the core design that I feel is plaguing the spec even now after all these years: avoidance tanks simply stopped working, and EHP ones started to take the scene.
In casual play sure, you probably had a solid 30% rep in any given random dungeon finder for Prot Warriors. But arenas is where Prot shined the most by the end of Wrath, as their prime for tanking vanished by the end of the expansion.

Now, for the rotation, I find engaging to keep debuffs and buffs rolling.
I concede that there was little you could do to fish for more procs, you had to work on the global.

The 21s rotation due to glyphed rend heavily played on the TfB proc and its internal gcd of six seconds.
Since Rend procced TfB every six seconds and given the first tick three seconds in, you had to plan accordingly, with Overpower always having the highest priority and Execute to the last step, just so that the buff didn't expire.

I'm willing to go into the nitty gritty details, to justify my spec I had to beat each and every Fury constantly, and I adamantly refused to switch, although I could probably have reached better numbers with a quarter of the dedication I put into perfecting my Arms. I was young and enamored with the whole concept, I didn't really want to play anything else, and due to that, the whole rotation and playstyle is heavily engrained in my memory and my reflexes even after all those years.
But I think it would make for a pretty boring read for anybody not involved, so yeah.

One more thing on Charge and Intercept:
Charge worked in-combat aswell due to a talent. You had to know when you had leeway to buff your Mortal Strike with Charge (for the 50% crit chance), and there were times in which you had to rely on Intercept which was a pretty reliable on demand stun.
And that's without mentioning the amazing mobility you had if you used Charge, Intercept and Intervene to navigate the encounter.

Now, having depth in your abilities helps in other aspects of the game, such as PvP, and allows for creativity in gameplay all around. One of my fondest memories on the mobility usage is tanking Sarth 10 +3, where I repositioned myself by having our Hpaladin move into position and me Intervening him, charging another add and aoe taunting midway.
It could be done today aswell, no doubt. But removing Intervene for all the specs hurt way much, because to me having similiar abilities that behave differently is not bad design, but the way one can try to improve.

[Deleted]

I had this problem when I first started playing arms. However I learned that a majority of those talent abilities are not viable. When I was fist playing I took all the extra button options finding it to be a horrible choice. Then I found the viable rotation barely uses 4 buttons.

[Archimtiros]

One more thing on Charge and Intercept:
Charge worked in-combat aswell due to a talent. You had to know when you had leeway to buff your Mortal Strike with Charge (for the 50% crit chance), and there were times in which you had to rely on Intercept which was a pretty reliable on demand stun.
And that's without mentioning the amazing mobility you had if you used Charge, Intercept and Intervene to navigate the encounter.

Yeah, Arms got Juggernaut in the Ulduar patch, which made Charge a 20s CD along with 30s CD Intercept, and 30s CD Intervene, all with different target, rage, and stance requirements. Compared to 2 charges of 17s Double Time Charge, which generate rage, and Heroic Leap. There's no possible way to believe that Warriors had more mobility then than they do now. The two are worlds apart.

It could be done today aswell, no doubt. But removing Intervene for all the specs hurt way much, because to me having similiar abilities that behave differently is not bad design, but the way one can try to improve.

Double Time and Heroic Leap improvements replaced Intervene, and DPS don't need individually targeted externals (which is why Vigilance is gone). All in all, it was a net positive for Warrior mobility.

[Waltzinblack]

OP wants this.

Leaked BFA spellbook for Arms.

[Domcho]

What's the point of this thread? You expect Blizzard to remove abilities from Arms?