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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    You are also one with controversial opinions. Aren't you an advocate of flying everywhere? Blizzard doesn't share that opinion with you.
    No, I don't advocate flying everywhere. Which you would know if you ever bothered to try and actually understand my point of view instead of just making assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    Look, i can choose to play "the way i enjoy"....but not really. Because the community is not there anymore.
    People dont enjoy walking on the ground. People enjoy seeing everyone else walking on the ground.
    See, this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You're just saying things as though they're fact, without any basis in reality.

    "People don't enjoy walking on the ground." Except for the people that DO.
    "People enjoy seeing everyone else walking on the ground." Holy shit! Way to assume everyone is an asshole that only gains enjoyment from seeing everyone below them. Do you have ANY basis or proof for this kind of rampant assumption?


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    You are telling me if I choose to walk on the ground it will be the same as Vanilla when everyone else was walking on the ground?
    You are telling me if i choose to not transmog it will be the same feeling like the times pre transmog?

    It will not be the same! It will just be a poor replica of it. (-_-)


    You're talking about something completely different from the subject at hand. Whether or not you want play a Vanilla-style game has nothing to do with LEGION. If a player doesn't want to use their ground mount in Legion, the point is that it doesn't matter if it's optimal or not compared to someone else choosing to fly in LEGION. People are playing LEGION how they find the most enjoyable, and one is not more valid than the other. But the context is still LEGION.

    You're basically saying:

    "If I chose to not use my flying mount in Legion, it's sub optimal because it doesn't make Legion into Vanilla."

    Wut?!? Do you not get how little sense that makes? Can someone translate from Shadowpunkese maybe?
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2018-01-07 at 02:53 AM.

  2. #162
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    See, this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You're just saying things as though they're fact, without any basis in reality.

    "People don't enjoy walking on the ground." Except for the people that DO.
    If that's true then we wouldn't have a problem would we now?
    If it's true people enjoy walking on the ground just for the sake of it then they would do it by choice and not complaint about it in forums that other people can fly.
    If that's true Blizzard wouldn't have changed the game.

    "People enjoy seeing everyone else walking on the ground." Holy shit! Way to assume everyone is an asshole that only gains enjoyment from seeing everyone below them. Do you have ANY basis or proof for this kind of rampant assumption?
    There is nothing wrong in wanting a community on the ground to interact with and see walking by you.
    It creates a cohesive and interacting world. An MMO.

    You're basically saying:

    "If I chose to not use my flying mount in Legion, it's sub optimal because it doesn't make Legion into Vanilla."

    Wut?!? Do you not get how little sense that makes?
    You are not understanding me.
    If i choose to not fly in Legion it will not recreate a time when there was no flying mounts and the consequences of not having flying mounts. It will not recreate those times nor the community that came with it. It will be a poor replica.
    I will just be a lonely guy walking on the ground.
    Last edited by mmocaf0660f03c; 2018-01-07 at 03:11 AM.

  3. #163
    Dreadlord Mask's Avatar
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    How about "This grind is so boring"

    Grinding is part of an MMO. It's a feature to many people. I started focusing on MMOs rather than single player games because I wanted to be immersed in the world, part of which is doing tasks and grinds. Feeling accomplished about finishing a task that took months to complete. An MMO without grinds would be like the Witcher or Dragon Age - a game you play for a couple weeks and then finish. If you want an evergreen gaming experience there needs to be grinds to keep players occupied and feeling accomplished over the long haul. Months and years, not days and weeks like single player games.

  4. #164
    There is no such thing as a free ride. That saying goes a long way with all the complaints.
    Me thinks Chromie has a whole lot of splaining to do!

  5. #165
    It is optional though.

  6. #166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kakera View Post
    It is optional though.
    /facepalm .
    This argument as reached meme status.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    AP, Legendary farming, titanforging up to infinite levels.. all of that is ass for anybody who plays at a week 1 mythic level. I also sincerely doubt that those things actually add any fun to non-mythic raiders.
    As someone who doesn't raid here is how I feel about those 3 things.

    Artifact Power: Completely inconsequential. I ignore it as a reward. I get plenty of it by accident to keep my weapon at a decent level.

    Legendary Farming: Also ignore it. I was quite happy using the first and fourth legendary I got for a long time, and those didn't take *that* long to acquire. I honestly would be happy with pretty much any combination of 2 legendaries (besides that shit Kil'jaeden trinket at least).

    Titanforging: Actually love this. It's nice to randomly get something nice every now and then despite the fact that I'm not pushing any kind of progression. I will never kill that next big boss that drops better loot, so titanforging is basically my end game. It is very important to non raiders.

  8. #168
    I wanted to respond to this post because despite its pointlessly aggressive tone there's actually some useful into...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Okay.

    Sure. Haven't done the math, but seems about right.

    Uhhh... no the fuck it isnt. The main way to do that is rep token Order Hall missions...
    The main way? Really? I've seen two rep missions in the two months I've been back. Both on the same day, neither of which I could start because my followers were on other missions.

    Argussian Reach i assume for Lightforged, Nightborne for Nightborne, and.. Army of the Light for Fail (Void) Elves? Okay. Well, my point above still stands (rep token missions); however, for Argussian Reach and Army of the Light... youll get exalted just doing the quests you need to do to fully unlock the Argus World Quests. AND some of those world quests grant 2-4 250 rep tokens.

    200% every rep token mission, even for reps you've already got exalted... because the 200% reward is a random 1500 rep token (or 750 for Nightborne, Army, or Reach)...
    Great. The next time I see one I'll go for it. But I honestly don't care about any of the other reps. Just Highmountain. For the moose-men unlock.

    In a given week, just with 5 110 toons doing Order Hall rep token missions, my main gets 2-3 of the Paragon boxes PER REP, PER WEEK (they're BoA).
    There it is. "I play five hours a day...but I have 5 110 level characters".

    If you have even two characters, you'll be exalted with all the reps on both characters in just a week or two.
    Right. Assuming I'm starting with several maxed level characters all of whom can be driven toward this one goal, I'm sure it's quick and easy. That's nowhere near as helpful as you seem to think it is. And again, I don't care about any of the other reps than Highmountain, so zerging all the reps is a bit of a chaotic shotgun approach.

    Just do any Order Hall quest that gives Blood of Sargeras as a reward, and 200% it. You get 12 Bloods. And 1000 OH resources. And then you can turn the Bloods in for OH resources. You never have to go farm WQs for resources. Ever. You dont even need to log in unless you need to exchange Bloods for Resources, you can just use the app.
    When I see them again, I'll be sure to hit them up. But yeah, the app is nice. Wish you could do the follower items from the app, but whatever. Yeah and the vendor that boosts your followers' ilvl to 880 is great.

    Just doing that, and using the app to send followers on missions, i get enough of the rep tokens that all 5 toons are exalted across the board, and my main (i just send all the rep tokens to him) gets 2-3 of the paragon boxes per rep per week. AND i make enough gold to pay my sub and clear another ~400k a month. And all of my toons are ~940-945 iLevel, and ive never set foot in a raid the entire xpac, except for LFR Gul'dan -once- for the Nightborne mount. Take that back. I did LFR Xavious for Herbalism or Alchemy, once. I barely remember it.

    5 hours a week.
    Great. Good for you. In the few months it will take me to get several more maxed level toons, I'll keep this in mind. I'm a super casual player. Don't have all the time to put in up front to eventually get to that 5 hours a week.

    It doesn't. An hour of research, tops, would have solved all these issues for you. Path of least resistance and all.
    To be fair I knew about most of this, but as the vast majority of it is based on RNG so I just didn't bother. I'm one of those unicorn players who the RNG Gods love to shit upon from on high. Unless it's a guarantee, I'm not going to waste my time. Focusing on just Highmountain rep quests will take long enough, grinding out everything at once...I don't have time for that. You forgot the Kirin Tor Emissary Quests, do those and pick the Highmountain token. It's great. If only it didn't take 2-3 days for the emissary quests to actually reload..."come back tomorrow". Bah.

    Here's part of the problem. Your advice is to do all this other stuff, level other toons, grind all this other rep, and eventually I'll max them all...when the only one I care about is Highmountain. You're not wrong. But it's very WoW advice. "Do all this stuff you don't care about to get to the thing you do." Which is, in and of itself, part of the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    WoW would be a great game if it weren't an MMO.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Except for when you enjoy raiding???? I didn't say I hated the raid content, just the bullshit they make raiders do outside of it.
    Once you have your legendaries (at this stage of the expansion you should have every legendary for your spec) and AP at 75 there is no grind. All you have to do now is do a +15 once a week and that is it. There is no more grinding you have to do. I don't even do dailies anymore and we are 5/11 mythic. People just like to complain.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Santoryu View Post
    This is another moronic counter argument. Could it be that he's not happy with something about the game and wants it to improve?

    Take it or leave it isn't a valid argument in a developing game.
    Well being he didn't actually give a legit thing and just basically said "Grind" Which can be 100000000 things in wow.......I would say I was 100% correct with my statement.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Torrasque View Post
    In all seriousness, if something is boring and you don't see a value in your efforts, the realistic notion is, in a matter of deduction, not to involve yourself with it. If it is, in fact, optional, then it is your option to play it. Those that see value in it will do it, regardless, and that doesn't have to be you if you do not want to.
    Point is, it doesn't HAVE TO BE boring. Just because something is optional, doesn't mean it has to be half-assed. I am a hardcore Blizzard fan and will defend many of their design decisions and will probably continue playing the game no matter what changes they make, but that doesn't mean I can't be disatisfied with some things they make every now and then.

    So Blizzard decided to make the Pureblood Firehawk a 1% drop chance when Cataclysm ended. Do I think it's not very nice for those like me who never even had the chance to fight for it when it was 100%? Yep. Does that mean I will stop playing WoW? Obviously not. If your answer here is: The Pureblood Firehawk is a cosmetic reward, therefore an optional thing not necessary for my progress in the game, and thus I should quit the game if I dislike that..... Well, your logic must be horribly flawed. If not, then I am thankful for the understanding.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    A lot of people hate life.. Are you advocating suicide?

    Or, their jobs.. Stop working and live like a hermit in the woods?

    Nope, your counter point is just flawed.

    I hear you can change ur life with a life changing decision.

    You also can get a different job



    See how I countered your bad counter?

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Actually I think it means if you hate it....why are u still doing it.
    Because it is mandatory - apparently.

    Not sure how... but that is apparently the argument the OP is making.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranganathan View Post
    I wanted to respond to this post because despite its pointlessly aggressive tone there's actually some useful into...



    The main way? Really? I've seen two rep missions in the two months I've been back. Both on the same day, neither of which I could start because my followers were on other missions.
    I get about 4-5 per day per character. Dont know what to tell you.

    Great. The next time I see one I'll go for it. But I honestly don't care about any of the other reps. Just Highmountain. For the moose-men unlock.
    You werent paying attention. The 200% item from ANY of the rep missions is a *random* 1500 rep token (which is only 750 for the ones i named). Thats why you do them all no matter what rep you're trying to max. ANY of those missions can turn into 1500 rep.

    There it is. "I play five hours a day...but I have 5 110 level characters".
    2 things

    One, i said i CURRENTLY play 5 hours a week. Was i playing more earlier in the xpac? Yes. Probably as much as 10 hours per week!

    Secondly, you act like getting to 110 is something that is even remotely difficult. Invasions are a level each. You can be 110 in 4 hours /played. Not even congruent (because you have to wait for the next invasion). My paladin went from 100 (where he was at the end of WoD) to 110 in just a little under 4 hours. My druid took longer (missed some invasions) and my hunter was about the same. Up to the point that Invasions became available i'd only leveled my main (Warlock since Vanilla) and my DK alt (tank) to 110, right at the begining. I sat on my other 100s because i didnt feel like re-doing all the quests again right away, and figured id get to it later. Then Invasions happened. My druid and my Paladin have done NONE of the zone quests. Not a single one. Leveled strictly through invasions.

    Right. Assuming I'm starting with several maxed level characters all of whom can be driven toward this one goal, I'm sure it's quick and easy. That's nowhere near as helpful as you seem to think it is. And again, I don't care about any of the other reps than Highmountain, so zerging all the reps is a bit of a chaotic shotgun approach.
    You dont zerg them. You just do all the rep token missions. You can fairly easily get 15-20k rep for a given faction in a single week, no problem, with just two characters (thats all i had at the start).

    When I see them again, I'll be sure to hit them up. But yeah, the app is nice. Wish you could do the follower items from the app, but whatever. Yeah and the vendor that boosts your followers' ilvl to 880 is great.

    Great. Good for you. In the few months it will take me to get several more maxed level toons, I'll keep this in mind. I'm a super casual player. Don't have all the time to put in up front to eventually get to that 5 hours a week.
    Your consistent problem is you dont do the research to make this easier on yourself. *I* am a super casual player. Always have been, even since Vanilla (though i put more time in back then and through Lich King, it was all in casual activities).

    It will NOT take you months to get more characters to max level. You can do it in literally a few hours each. You could easily, super-casually, do 1 character to 110 per week.

    To be fair I knew about most of this, but as the vast majority of it is based on RNG so I just didn't bother. I'm one of those unicorn players who the RNG Gods love to shit upon from on high. Unless it's a guarantee, I'm not going to waste my time. Focusing on just Highmountain rep quests will take long enough, grinding out everything at once...I don't have time for that. You forgot the Kirin Tor Emissary Quests, do those and pick the Highmountain token. It's great. If only it didn't take 2-3 days for the emissary quests to actually reload..."come back tomorrow". Bah.
    Its not that unreliable. I'm about to log in to clear my mail. Ill take a screenshot of just the rep tokens ive made in the last 2 days since i logged in and cleared them all last.

    And ALWAYS do the Invasion when it is up in Highmountain. Its worth ~1500 rep.

    Here's part of the problem. Your advice is to do all this other stuff, level other toons, grind all this other rep, and eventually I'll max them all...when the only one I care about is Highmountain. You're not wrong. But it's very WoW advice. "Do all this stuff you don't care about to get to the thing you do." Which is, in and of itself, part of the problem.
    .. Rep missions dont require you to do anything. You dont have to go anywhere or do a single thing. Just two or three clicks. Thats it.

    its like the people in the WoW Token thread who complained that there was no way to make gold without grinding like a fool to pay for the token..... when you can literally clear 30-50k per week on a single character 100% passively without even logging in. I clear ~600k per month doing literally nothing except switching missions on the app when im doing something else (like cooking dinner or cleaning or waiting for my kid at the bus stop).

    It isn't hard, or time consuming. You just have to find the path of least resistance.

  15. #175
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Torrasque View Post
    In all seriousness, if something is boring and you don't see a value in your efforts, the realistic notion is, in a matter of deduction, not to involve yourself with it. If it is, in fact, optional, then it is your option to play it. Those that see value in it will do it, regardless, and that doesn't have to be you if you do not want to.
    /thread.

    Basically some things are "more optional" than others, you find it in your own way if you really want/need to do those things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    People trying to claim flying is optional make me laugh.

    Walking vs driving in real life is an option too, but would you walk 30 miles to work? No.
    Just take the damn bus!
    (kidding)

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranganathan View Post
    Pointing out that something in a video game is boring or takes too long is a perfectly valid criticism.
    It may be valid but its also artless. It should be no surprise that a undeveloped complaint be met with the same such response; Why is it boring, how long should it take, and what would make it better?

    If you want to discuss an issue you can't be so succinct. The details matter.
    "Those who dance appear insane to those who can't hear the music." ~~ George Carlin


  17. #177
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    @Ranganathan the comparison you give of killing someone & having a reason for doing so and the whole "it's optional" argument in games is not even remotely close to each other. In a game, unless you are gated to do something, it doesn't have to be done therefore it's optional. Any grind you do is your decision. Nobody is making you do it. This includes AP. You are not forced to grind out AP to play this game. If you want to experience a certain aspect of the game and the community has put their own rules in place for you to be able to access it, that's not the gaming company's fault. If you want to see raids in WoW, you can either buy a run from a guild, join a guild that will take you (but you may have to abide by their requirements of certain item levels, etc to join them), or hop into LFR and see basically that same content as everyone else is seeing (mythic difficulty excluded). If you want a special mount and that requires a certain reputation, that's your choice to obtain it & in no way affects your gameplay and is therefore optional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazuchika View Post
    Any guild pushing semi decent progress at this point will take someone who actually wants to show up every night irregardless of legendaries.
    Not to play grammar Nazi but "irregardless" isn't a word. The word has a double negative in it. "Ir" and "less" both make it negative. The correct word you're meaning to say is simply "regardless".

  18. #178
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranganathan View Post
    No. But recognize it's not either, or. The options aren't: 1) Instant max with full gear, all mounts, all achiements, etc... or 2) Super long grinds for practically everything. There's is a vast middle ground that's left untouched.
    It is either/or: Either you think the game is worth paying for or you don't. It's up to you. That was the whole point of my post. It's Blizzard's problem to solve if everyone is bored and stops paying for the game. The entire argument about optional versus mandatory depends on what your personal game is all about. If it's hard-core raiding then some things might be "mandatory" for you due to peer pressure or whatever. It won't be at all for a casual player that likes PVE but doesn't care anything about raiding beyond LFR. It's still up to the player.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It is either/or: Either you think the game is worth paying for or you don't. It's up to you. That was the whole point of my post. It's Blizzard's problem to solve if everyone is bored and stops paying for the game. The entire argument about optional versus mandatory depends on what your personal game is all about. If it's hard-core raiding then some things might be "mandatory" for you due to peer pressure or whatever. It won't be at all for a casual player that likes PVE but doesn't care anything about raiding beyond LFR. It's still up to the player.
    There's a whole universe of possibilities between that stark binary. Yes, it's worth playing. No, it's not star-spangled perfect and above all criticism. Which is why "it's optional" and "play or don't" are pointless and basically code for STFU. Yeah, parts are fun. Others, not so much. But apparently that's too subtle a distinction to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    WoW would be a great game if it weren't an MMO.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranganathan View Post
    Gods. I am so tired of seeing this bandied about as if it were the end-all be-all of counter arguments.

    It's not a counter argument. It's an affirmative defense. If you're on trial for murder and you say, "Yes, I killed them but here's my reason," that's an affirmative defense. You're admitting to the charges but saying it's acceptable because of something. In WoW and other MMOs, "it's optional" is an affirmative defense.

    "This grind is so boring!"

    "It's optional!"

    You're not refuting that it's a boring ass grind, you're affirming that it's a boring ass grind. Yes, it's boring, but it's optional.

    Literally everything in the game is optional. The problem is there's different levels of optional. Leveling is optional, but it's the only way to unlock content. Artifacts are enitrely optional, but they're also one of the primary focus points of the entire Legion expansion. You don't have to use them. But they're not as optional as say a vanity mount that takes months to grind out.

    "It's optional" is a really dumb, meaningless, and hollow thing to say.

    Pointing out that something in a video game is boring or takes too long is a perfectly valid criticism. Games should be fun. It's really not hard to figure out. A video game being boring is a flaw, not a feature. It would be great if people didn't pretend otherwise.
    i'd like to thank you for addressing us properly. beyond that i stopped reading because it was long. have a day!

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