Why Arms has so many buttons?

[Deleted]

There's no possible way to believe that Warriors had more mobility then than they do now. The two are worlds apart.

Double Time and Heroic Leap improvements replaced Intervene, and DPS don't need individually targeted externals (which is why Vigilance is gone). All in all, it was a net positive for Warrior mobility.

Here's the thing though: taking away abilities with perks, strengths and weaknesses takes one tuning knob and removes it completely.

Heroic Leap is strong. It's probably the strongest mobility skill in the game, on paper.
Truth of the matter is that it's not allowed to do what it should, whereas Balance disengages and DH double jumps do what Heroic Leap should do and more.

Moreover, Heroic Leap as of now is more often than not used to Heroic Charge and feed Rage to a system that desperately needs a resource overhaul at this point, neutering the coveted mobility.

Would I take Heroic Leap over Intercept? Probably. But I never would have given Warriors, say, Stormbolt. In the end the cost has been Charge stun, which to me is pretty dumb.

It's a matter of power budget and class design, a thing that's been lacking for a little too much in my opinion.

I should have added that Warriors had amazing mobility -for the times-. Now it's arguably better, but I feel like it had a little more flavor back then.
I know you're not putting words in my mouth but just stating your opinion, still felt the need to point mine out.

[Archimtiros]

Here's the thing though: taking away abilities with perks, strengths and weaknesses takes one tuning knob and removes it completely.

I don't agree with that in any way. You're acting like abilities are stale with no interaction what so ever, which is absolutely false. I hate to shatter the illusion, but Wrath didn't have all that much either. Rend and Overpower for example, was so predictable, it's almost hard to call it a proc, leaving you with really only one ability that added any variance whatsoever to the rotation - Sudden Death. Arms has just as many procs (actually more) than Wrath ever did, and while there are some simple rotations (FoB), there are so many more options for different players now than there ever was before. In fact, many would argue that having the ability to talent into simple rotations is better, as it makes the game a lot more inclusive for different types of players than it ever has been before, which is a good thing.

Truth of the matter is that it's not allowed to do what it should, whereas Balance disengages and DH double jumps do what Heroic Leap should do and more.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

Heroic Leap should be a double jump? How are they at all even the same ability? Double Jump brings next to nothing (aside from cheesing the occasional ground effect) to a dungeon/raid environment, and Disengage is a different ability entirely. Strictly speaking you could "disengage" via Heroic Leap quite easily, though it'd be awkward and unnecessary since you could also simply leap in any other direction.

Moreover, Heroic Leap as of now is more often than not used to Heroic Charge and feed Rage to a system that desperately needs a resource overhaul at this point, neutering the coveted mobility.

No it isn't, not by a long shot. Heroic Leap is always used for mobility first, and frankly there's very little reason to Leap to Heroic Charge as Arms, since their swing timer is quite generous; it really doesn't save you any time.

Would I take Heroic Leap over Intercept? Probably. But I never would have given Warriors, say, Stormbolt. In the end the cost has been Charge stun, which to me is pretty dumb.

That was a balancing change. Letting Warrior gap close, generate resources, and interrupt/stun all in one ability on one cooldown was ridiculously powerful, and decoupling them actually led to Warriors gaining more mobility. Not a coincidence that we started getting extra charges of charge around the same time the stun was removed. It didn't cost you a charge stun, since you can still have Storm Bolt as a stun, they just weren't going to let you have extra uses of Charge which could also Stun and another talent on top of the pile.

I should have added that Warriors had amazing mobility -for the times-. Now it's arguably better, but I feel like it had a little more flavor back then.

I disagree; it was simply harder back then (or if you prefer, more involved) because you had to juggle stances, rage, three separate and longer CDs, along with more strict mob/ally positioning. A lot of people like to pretend that difficulty is synonymous with fun, but it really is not.

[Beefkow]

I missed having stances, it gave you options.

[Achilles55]

There's no way this post can be serious. Compared to many classes Arms has so few spells. Also you have spells listed that are A: Shit talents that you don't use (rend/overpower) or B: spells that you will literally never press (hamstring/heroic throw). Try Playing Prot Paladin or literally any healer before complaining about arms having too many abilities. In terms of how to keybind the few spells you will actually use I'd suggest shift modifiers and macros.

[Deleted]

I don't agree with that in any way. You're acting like abilities are stale with no interaction what so ever, which is absolutely false. I hate to shatter the illusion, but Wrath didn't have all that much either. Rend and Overpower for example, was so predictable, it's almost hard to call it a proc, leaving you with really only one ability that added any variance whatsoever to the rotation - Sudden Death. Arms has just as many procs (actually more) than Wrath ever did, and while there are some simple rotations (FoB), there are so many more options for different players now than there ever was before. In fact, many would argue that having the ability to talent into simple rotations is better, as it makes the game a lot more inclusive for different types of players than it ever has been before, which is a good thing.

Abilities might not be stale, but talents surely look like they are, don't they. You press Rend because you have to, and Rend as a talent kind of sucks ass, to me.
Hell I almost miss WoD's TfB, it actually made Rend do something interesting.

I actually dig the actual sub20 rotation more than I did the TfB one, but I get bored to death and back before. Shattered Defenses is the end all be all of synergy, but there has to be something else that can be done.

Now sure, TfB was basically a glorified Overpower cooldown, but it had a certain nuance to it, and it cannot be denied.
We already discussed about the merits of having simpler singular rotation in an increasingly complex collective environment, and I'm all for ease to access in various areas of the game.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

Heroic Leap should be a double jump? How are they at all even the same ability? Double Jump brings next to nothing (aside from cheesing the occasional ground effect) to a dungeon/raid environment, and Disengage is a different ability entirely. Strictly speaking you could "disengage" via Heroic Leap quite easily, though it'd be awkward and unnecessary since you could also simply leap in any other direction.

You're gravely misunderstanding me, I fear, or rather I'm not able to convey my points properly.

Heroic Leap, on paper, should move the Warrior anywhere the reticule leads.
The reality though is that you can't really jump anywhere that's not straight in front of you, and sometimes not even that.
Those two abilities I brought up as an example are abilities that can actually jump through leaps, and in some cases over heights aswell. You'd think that for a 45s ability, Leap should do so aswell.

No it isn't, not by a long shot. Heroic Leap is always used for mobility first, and frankly there's very little reason to Leap to Heroic Charge as Arms, since their swing timer is quite generous; it really doesn't save you any time.

I admit my ignorance then. I left my Warrior to collect dust and grabbed some snips of information here and there that gave Heroic Charge as mandatory still.
Can I get a point for a valid concern, at least?

That was a balancing change. Letting Warrior gap close, generate resources, and interrupt/stun all in one ability on one cooldown was ridiculously powerful, and decoupling them actually led to Warriors gaining more mobility. Not a coincidence that we started getting extra charges of charge around the same time the stun was removed. It didn't cost you a charge stun, since you can still have Storm Bolt as a stun, they just weren't going to let you have extra uses of Charge which could also Stun and another talent on top of the pile.

Double Time appeared in Pandaria where Warriors' cc rivaled Rogues'. It got removed in WoD because why not.
If you're to keep something unique, then you have to preserve it. if you add a 4s 30yarde hard stun that cannot be avoided, then of course you'd use that instead of a combination of abilities to achieve the same result. Why would you trade mobility for control then, actually making the choice of what's more valuable in the moment at hand.

And we could then go back to one of the first points and combining with the very last one, this is nothing more than added nuance and complexity.
But there has to be a conspicuous skill cap for people to make mistakes and improve. To me, it was the beauty of the spec. The small things that piled up made the difference.

I disagree; it was simply harder back then (or if you prefer, more involved) because you had to juggle stances, rage, three separate and longer CDs, along with more strict mob/ally positioning. A lot of people like to pretend that difficulty is synonymous with fun, but it really is not.

I agree, difficult is not fun. Engaging is.
There was little to juggle with Tactical Mastery and proper macros tbh. You just needed to know your stuff.

[Archimtiros]

Abilities might not be stale, but talents surely look like they are, don't they. You press Rend because you have to, and Rend as a talent kind of sucks ass, to me.

You pressed Rend because you had to then too. Go talent Overpower and you have your proc back, but there's no no functional difference between the ability proccing off of Rend or any attack. Keep in mind too that current Rend is a pretty substantial source of damage, while Wrath Rend was not. It's also a talent, so you don't need to use it. I agree that it tends to feel like better fantasy when a particular ability does something, but there's no functional gameplay difference - it's all in your head.

You're gravely misunderstanding me, I fear, or rather I'm not able to convey my points properly.

Heroic Leap, on paper, should move the Warrior anywhere the reticule leads.
The reality though is that you can't really jump anywhere that's not straight in front of you, and sometimes not even that.
Those two abilities I brought up as an example are abilities that can actually jump through leaps, and in some cases over heights aswell. You'd think that for a 45s ability, Leap should do so aswell.

None of that is true. You can leap in any direction the reticule is aiming, even directly behind yourself. Heroic Leap can also leap vertically in a great many areas, though the functionality is largely disabled in instances to keep it from being exploited, and there's yet to have been one in which Double Jump has any sort of advantage anyway.

I admit my ignorance then. I left my Warrior to collect dust and grabbed some snips of information here and there that gave Heroic Charge as mandatory still.
Can I get a point for a valid concern, at least?

No, because you didn't get the point. Heroic Charge is still a valid maneuver, but it's just a name. There's absolutely no need to use Heroic Leap in which to do it.

Double Time appeared in Pandaria where Warriors' cc rivaled Rogues'. It got removed in WoD because why not.

Gonna go out on a limb and guess probably because Warrior CC rivaled Rogues, and Warriors were vastly overrepresented because of it.

If you're to keep something unique, then you have to preserve it. if you add a 4s 30yarde hard stun that cannot be avoided, then of course you'd use that instead of a combination of abilities to achieve the same result. Why would you trade mobility for control then, actually making the choice of what's more valuable in the moment at hand.

Everything is unique the first time it's created, that's not justification to keep it around when it becomes outmoded or imbalanced. Colossus Smash was unique when it was added, and still is to a degree, why not sing its praises?

You're still asked to trade mobility for control, because Stormbolt/Shockwave are on the same tier as Double Time.

And we could then go back to one of the first points and combining with the very last one, this is nothing more than added nuance and complexity.
But there has to be a conspicuous skill cap for people to make mistakes and improve. To me, it was the beauty of the spec. The small things that piled up made the difference.

I agree, difficult is not fun. Engaging is.

I look at logs every single day, there's plenty of room for mistakes within the current rotations, and there's a lot of room to find engagement. Granted, the FoB build isn't the perfect example of that, but when you're given a plethora of options, it's inevitable that any particular combination can end up being optimal; there's still a lot of room to play with other options with extremely minimal difference in performance, and by contrast Focused Rage was a much more convoluted and engaging spec that persisted for quite some time this expansion.

[Jastall]

If there's one, just QoL change I'll take any day when it comes to Warriors, it's Charge working in combat. Good lord did I hate stance dancing just to be able to use Intercept. I don't care how powerful that gap closer was at the time, it was fucking bad to use.

I also agree with Arch that more buttons doesn't always = a better and more fun rotation. However I will say I still heavily dislike the current incarnation of Arms due to its over-reliance one all-important proc and RNG, and the FoB/Trauma build is just boring as fuck to play. I have no idea why Blizzard ever thought making Whirlwind the filler ST ability was a great idea. They shoved that towards us in WoD, and now in T21 it's been revived.

I'd probably like Arms more if Overpower, and maybe Rend were made baseline, so that talents could add more interesting stuff than just abilities we used to have and at least OP would plug the gaps in the rotation. Fury has a generally better talent selection if you ask me.

[Vojka]

Lmao I'd pay to see Sifu play WotLK pvp arms for a day, He'd shit his pants.

[Deleted]

Problem solved! Now I play without Overpower, Rend and Slam: i use Whirlwind as a filler instead (Fervor of Battle). Now i can really enjoy this spec: 3 less buttons is a HUGE difference for me, i can handle it now with easy. Dmg part is not that bad even without Rend and Slam.
Anyway thanks for all your replies guys.

[Sughs]

Is this for real? My PvP Arms Warrior in WotLK had more than 60 binds.

[Hydrant]

I had same problem when I first tried playing mmo. So many buttons confused me a lot. Then i decided to do a trick: i've bound movement to ESDF instead of WASD. Thus i've got active buttons: q,w,r,t,a,g,h,z,x,c,v,3,4 and all of these with shift mod. Still using these binds for about 10 years already and I dont need any of these fancy mice with a shitload of extra buttons.

Hope this will help somebody. Good luck

[Deleted]

Snip

Sorry for the late response. I'll try to make it fairly short this time as we are apparently in disagreement with some design matters which are pretty subjective.

Rend, at the time, did some decent damage. Nothing groundbreaking, but I recall doing around 700 per tick by the time I was in my t9s. Given that MS shot for anything around 4k 5k, I'd say those were pretty decent numbers.
I'd have to go grab some Klinda videos or something to check it up though.
Anyway the nature of TfB back then allowed for creative use given how it procced every 6s, the stacks banking was pretty neat.

Heroic Charge not being necessary is good news, I was not up to date, just saw some videos and assumed it was.
I didn't make myself clear enough tho: yeah you could move horizontally wherever, but other gapclosers can do that just fine with some camera movement, and allow for Z axis shenanigans. Think the Arcway Zakuun skip with a Balance and maybe even a Shaman. Heroic Leap's power budget never fails to leave me perplexed, as much as I enjoy both the animation and the ability.

And yeah, Warriors rivaled Rogues. And therein lies the issue: Stormbolt having no place in a Warrior's kit because it overbudgets the kit in a direction that has to leave something to be desired or use the given kit sacrificing something to have an advantage, although this is mostly a PvP concern.

I'd like to hear your opinion on the repeated nerfs to Shockwave though, but I digress.

CSmash was unique and silly when it was added. After a whole discussion on how Armor penetration was deemed unhealthy for the state of the game, melees got a number of abilities that straight up ignored armor, and Sub Rogues and Warriors got to keep ArP, one of them having to apply it as an active ability, and suffering enormously in PvP for it straight after s9.
EDIT:
Although I don't need to tell you the whole history of the class, you know it as much as I do. It's just that I find pretty dumb how the whole damage of the class is tied to something that should be gone since eight years by now.

About the last part, perfecting one's mechanical ability is part of the game.
I'd rather it was somehow satisfying to a lesser degree. But this whole debate started from me heavily disliking Arms in comparison to how it was in WotLK in terms of everything outside the rotation. And I could rant for another couple pages about how I loathe Slam's upward strike, or MS being 1h.

[Vastoorode]

Sorry for the late response. I'll try to make it fairly short this time as we are apparently in disagreement with some design matters which are pretty subjective.

Rend, at the time, did some decent damage. Nothing groundbreaking, but I recall doing around 700 per tick by the time I was in my t9s. Given that MS shot for anything around 4k 5k, I'd say those were pretty decent numbers.
I'd have to go grab some Klinda videos or something to check it up though.
Anyway the nature of TfB back then allowed for creative use given how it procced every 6s, the stacks banking was pretty neat.

Heroic Charge not being necessary is good news, I was not up to date, just saw some videos and assumed it was.
I didn't make myself clear enough tho: yeah you could move horizontally wherever, but other gapclosers can do that just fine with some camera movement, and allow for Z axis shenanigans. Think the Arcway Zakuun skip with a Balance and maybe even a Shaman. Heroic Leap's power budget never fails to leave me perplexed, as much as I enjoy both the animation and the ability.

And yeah, Warriors rivaled Rogues. And therein lies the issue: Stormbolt having no place in a Warrior's kit because it overbudgets the kit in a direction that has to leave something to be desired or use the given kit sacrificing something to have an advantage, although this is mostly a PvP concern.

I'd like to hear your opinion on the repeated nerfs to Shockwave though, but I digress.

CSmash was unique and silly when it was added. After a whole discussion on how Armor penetration was deemed unhealthy for the state of the game, melees got a number of abilities that straight up ignored armor, and Sub Rogues and Warriors got to keep ArP, one of them having to apply it as an active ability, and suffering enormously in PvP for it straight after s9.

About the last part, perfecting one's mechanical ability is part of the game.
I'd rather it was somehow satisfying to a lesser degree. But this whole debate started from me heavily disliking Arms in comparison to how it was in WotLK in terms of everything outside the rotation. And I could rant for another couple pages about how I loathe Slam's upward strike, or MS being 1h.

I agree with you, a class is more than its rotational abilitys.
For example that OP reduced spellpower if used on a cast, that was cool and gave depth in PvP. It was a big midstake to give dps warriors Storm bolt and Shockwave, throwdown was much better imo. A ranged stun for a warrior is dumb and messes with the power balance... charge stun was fun and something that could be used skillfull. They should atleast give charge stund back if speced double time imo. C Smash in Cata atleast didn't gimp our damage outside it that much but was a good damage boost. Now to much is reliant on CS to do damage.

[gushDH]

I use:

1-6, c, f3, t, x, z, r, s-V, f1, g, f, v, e, q, s-Q, s-C, s-3, s-4, `, s-X, s-T, s-E, f2, alt-X, s-Z, s-F, 1 extra mouse button. I also use number 9 for my potion.

That's 33 buttons, with only 1 button at the mouse. Problem is on your mate, not at arms.

[Archimtiros]

CSmash was unique and silly when it was added. After a whole discussion on how Armor penetration was deemed unhealthy for the state of the game, melees got a number of abilities that straight up ignored armor, and Sub Rogues and Warriors got to keep ArP, one of them having to apply it as an active ability, and suffering enormously in PvP for it straight after s9.

Armor Pen was unhealthy for the game, and objectively a poor stat to have on items and gear. Abilities which automatically ignore armor function entirely differently, and there is no equating the two. Regardless, CS doesn't even do that anymore.

About the last part, perfecting one's mechanical ability is part of the game.
I'd rather it was somehow satisfying to a lesser degree.

And why suggest there's no way to perfect mechanics now? Because Rend doesn't trigger Overpower on a completely predictable timer? Because Charge and Intervene do the same thing on one consolidated button/cooldown? You ignored my earlier point that there are multiple talent setups now, which create multiple styles of gameplay; if you don't like Fervor/Trauma due to its simplicity... then don't play Fervor/Trauma, there's still room for Rend and Overpower. Just because you don't find any of it satisfying, doesn't mean it cannot be.

But this whole debate started from me heavily disliking Arms in comparison to how it was in WotLK in terms of everything outside the rotation. And I could rant for another couple pages about how I loathe Slam's upward strike, or MS being 1h.

No offence intended, but I'm not too interested in continuing this conversation. You've made your bias toward Wrath quite clear - you simply like it better, which is fine, but when you find cause to nitpick every last thing, I'm still inclined to believe that it's more a nostalgia problem, that nothing will ever fix. I feel this about MoP sometimes (and even Wrath to a lesser extent) - it was a good time, both to be a Warrior, and for me personally, but I can rationally understand that there's nothing wrong with the game now or and many changes since have been for the better.

That said, I do think there are problems with Arms (and Fury) at the moment, specifically artifact trait reliance and certain talents, but nothing is ever going to measure up if one can't put their own personal bias aside.

[Deleted]

No offence intended, but No offence, but I'm not too interested in continuing this conversation. You've made your bias toward Wrath quite clear - you simply like it better, which is fine, but when you find cause to nitpick every last thing, I'm still inclined to believe that it's more a nostalgia problem, that nothing will ever fix. I feel this about MoP sometimes (and even Wrath to a lesser extent) - it was a good time, both to be a Warrior, and for me personally, but I can rationally understand that there's nothing wrong with the game now or and many changes since have been for the better.

No it's fine, you're not wrong. To me, no design can compare to my perceived prime.
I mean, it's great for the health of the game when multiple builds are viable. And the sub20 rotation is probably my favourite ever.

The discussion can be held on wether it's acceptable for the classes to have nothing beside what's needed for them to perform their job, or a number of things. The answer before was yes, today's kit bring a different one and I don't find myself liking it.

But thanks for humoring me up until this point.

[Rampant Rabbit]

12345`
Shift + 12345`
A, D, F, G, C, V
Shift + A, D, F, G, C, V

Mouse buttons

[Archimtiros]

No it's fine, you're not wrong. To me, no design can compare to my perceived prime.
I mean, it's great for the health of the game when multiple builds are viable. And the sub20 rotation is probably my favourite ever.

The discussion can be held on wether it's acceptable for the classes to have nothing beside what's needed for them to perform their job, or a number of things. The answer before was yes, today's kit bring a different one and I don't find myself liking it.

But thanks for humoring me up until this point.

Nbd, glad we could have a civil conversation on the matter.

[wholol]

I don't main a warrior myself but I do have every single class at 110 and arms is quite possibly one of the easiest rotations in the game, it's a far cry compared to how warrior functioned before.

I feel sorry for the warrior mains who never lived through the stance dancing era.

[Archimtiros]

I don't main a warrior myself but I do have every single class at 110 and arms is quite possibly one of the easiest rotations in the game, it's a far cry compared to how warrior functioned before.

I feel sorry for the warrior mains who never lived through the stance dancing era.

Calling stance dancing hard, because making macros is difficult.

FoB/Trauma is certainly an easy rotation, it's quite possibly one of the least engaging specs in the game. Go play FR for awhile, and you'll have a very different opinion though.