Void for the Horde

[Wildmoon]

They are separate schools, but certain things need to be taken into account. All schools derive from Void and Light. We can call these two the "Parent Schools" for now. You also see mentions of how life arose from sparks of Light. That'd imply "Life" is primarily a derivation of Light, though not so pure. I'm also pretty sure Elemental Decay is associated with Cunning and Madness if I recall elemental personality traits properly. In short, it seems oddly in line with the Void, though not the purest of expressions.

So I see those chains I listed as more pure derivative powers. Death and Decay lean heavily towards Void. Life and Spirit lean heavily towards Light. This also serves as a good explanation for why the Light doesn't get along very well with Undead, while there's no such conflict with Void energies.

This is not to say that Life is just an inferior version of Light, or Death is just shittier Void. They're definitely different powers, but clearly closer linked than most.

Fel and Arcane don't seem as cleanly tied to one or the other.

Your explanation is the most obvious and sensible one but as you said this explanation get us stuck into how we would explain Fel and Arcane. Light>Fel, Void>Arcane? That doesn't seem to make much sense. Also the whole connection betweens forces and elements thing too. Arcane and Earth? Death and Air?

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But they don't, because using the void on such a scale is simply not sustainable lorewise, hence the exile.

It will turn out to be sustainable in the end because gameplay demands it. Blizzard will have to explain one way or another why void elves can keep on living forever just as the other races would. Or at the very least, the ultimate fate of going insane will not have any significance to the overall story.

[MrSaggins]

Blizzard has been muddying the waters between death magic and void magic.

Have they? I've seen the recent changes as clarification of the discrepancy. Traditionally joined, now separate.

Anyway, enough rambling about selfish things. Does the Horde need a Void and Light element like the Alliance does?

Perhaps not. If they wanted to leave Void and Light to the Eastern Kingdoms races (sans Forsaken) and traditional ideas of puritanical dark vs lightness; and in turn contrast it with Kalimdor races (sans non-shamen Draenei) exemplifying the aspects of Life/Nature (Nelves/Tauren etc.) and Spirit through the Horde's shamanic races that could be really cool.

When I first started playing I noted this in the structure of the capital cities. Stormwind was filled with priests and a cathedral structure mirroring traditional European Papist monotheism; and the Warchief's throne in Orgrimmar's valley of wisdom was surrounded by shamen. I believe one of the first shaman quests even mentioned that they were the leaders of their people, and that dichotomy really drew me. This fundamental difference in culture (civilized vs barbarians~) and faith separated the Horde from the Alliance, and could forever be a point of contention to fuel Warcraft.

The BfA trailer hinted at Sylvanas, with the Blood Elves representing the Light. Death and Void magic are different, but they resemble and they're right next to each other on the cosmic chart. Even arcane can sometimes overlap with void.

Yeah, I really hope they flesh out that chart more in game. It's a great concept.

why would voss join the horde she hates the forsaken.

Oh? Does she still? It was my understanding that that was merely her upbringing, and she's since turned her wrath against the Scarlet Crusade.

Or the horde could get life orcs and another kind of undead and the next expansion is Light + Void vs Life + Death. That would be some unexpected and interesting plot twist that would get a lot of people raging

A great idea. I certainly wouldn't complain if we had an equivalent monopoly.

The horde has both the sin'dorei and the Nightborne, and there magics very much intact, one with a font of magic at its core, where as the alliance elves don't even have a capital city between them.

We'll see, trees can be replanted. And Dalaran, originally an Alliance city, can't seem to decide if it's going to remain neutral - particularly considering that the only member of its leadership that isn't a living human Archmage is married to one that violently hates the Horde.

Let's say Shadow magic is definitely part of their arsenal. So far Shadow Hunters have been shown to be a weird mix of Shaman, Rogue, Hunter and Priest abilities. Needless to say, the Priest abilities seem to be entirely Shadow related. Vol'jin shows a few of them in his novel and possessed Shadow spells as faction boss. One of his official arts (the Hearthstone one I think, where he's treated like Priest) doesn't really screams shamanism.

Yeah, ever since that Hearthstone Card I've thought we were overdue for a retcon as to precisely where a Shadowhunter draws their power; and considering the Zandalari in Shadows of the Horde mentioned how they revere Shadowhunters I'm guessing we'll see this in BFA. I'm also betting their Loa-fueled magic is derived from the Shadowlands, or the Decay/Spirit/Life opposing sections of the cosmic chart. After all, Gonk showed Zen'tabra the Dream.

All schools derive from Void and Light. We can call these two the "Parent Schools" for now. You also see mentions of how life arose from sparks of Light. That'd imply "Life" is primarily a derivation of Light, though not so pure. I'm also pretty sure Elemental Decay is associated with Cunning and Madness if I recall elemental personality traits properly. In short, it seems oddly in line with the Void, though not the purest of expressions.

My only problem with the idea of proximity relation is that if Life is closely tied to Light then so is Fel, haha! I wanted to argue with your statement that all schools derive from Void and Light, but if the canon lore is that everything does then it's pretty inarguable that magical schools do as well.

Fel and Arcane don't seem as cleanly tied to one or the other.

I don't know, they've always seemed opposing to me. Mages vs Warlocks. Titans being Arcane, the Dark Titan being Fel. It seems like it would make more sense to swap Arcane and Fel's place on the chart though.

She would have already have been hunted by the allaince that’s not gonna make her hate of the forsaken go away. If any thing she could join up with the argent dawn and not have to work with the forsaken or worry about the allaince.

Do the Argent Dawn have a place in the Battle For Azeroth? Their architecture, armor, and mounts seem to lean very Alliance; and I could see them kicking out the Horde members just as Jaina did with the Kirin'tor.

You have Blood Elves and Nightborne...some of the strongest if not thee strongest with Arcane...

Do they? 5/6 members of the Kirin'tor leadership are human, and the sixth is married to one.

Why the hell does the Horde need everything...already have more land...control of every fount of power on Azeroth...a faction that is about more than one race.

You don't need every little special thing in the game.

Well I imagine the plot will eventually lead to players combating the Void, and the Horde will need scholars learned on the subject to understand the enemy for quests to make any sense. Interesting point about "founts of power" and the Horde holding a lot of cards though. I'm not sure how to refute that. Maybe Dalaran and Light's Hope will break neutrality? Seize Karazhan? Perhaps the Crown of the Triumvirate and the Vindicaar will come into play? I have no idea, and that is a fair point.

The horde already uses shadow magic and with the inclusion of the Zandalari will get some very skilled users. Using the void in the same manner as the void elves is far too dangerous, tapping into it for a time is fine but being tied to it will lead to calamity at one point.

Will we? Is there something about this in the BfA alpha gameplay?

People like you and your ideas ruin WoW story. Begone peasant.

What an enriching contribution to our discussion Did you have a better plan for introducing the Void to Horde players?

If they wanted Void Elves I guess they shouldn't have kicked them out in the first place

Couldn't agree more. I miss Kael and the early Burning Crusade Blood Elves so much.

[Combatbutler]

It will turn out to be sustainable in the end because gameplay demands it. Blizzard will have to explain one way or another why void elves can keep on living forever just as the other races would. Or at the very least, the ultimate fate of going insane will not have any significance to the overall story.

Not really they already implemented the possibility of it taking a long time to affect someone significantly, the question has always been when someone falls and it depends on the individual Alleria used the void for centuries others might fall after a few years, but they will fall eventually.

And become your typical twilight hammer nutjob.

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Will we? Is there something about this in the BfA alpha gameplay?

It is already ingame since mop, the Zandalari use some very advanced shadow magic, the kirin tor find it abhorrent, while the sunreavers wanted to figure out how it works.

[Wildmoon]

Not really they already implemented the possibility of it taking a long time to affect someone significantly, the question has always been when someone falls and it depends on the individual Alleria used the void for centuries others might fall after a few years, but they will fall eventually.

And become your typical twilight hammer nutjob.

They absolutely won't become insane in any meaningful way in the story that we are playing because they are playable race... "They will fall" is something that is true but won't happen to the whole population as long as WoW is still the main way to tell WarCraft story thus it's not really meaningful. At most the fate will be demonstrated through Alleria and that's pretty much it. Their continued existence as a playable race is a neccessity. Individuals can fall but it happens to practitioners of any school of magic. In the end, that amounts to really nothing in the story when looking at the big picture.

[Oakshana]

Did you have a better plan for introducing the Void to Horde players?

Does their need to be one? Seems to me there is zero evidence that we are going to get a "void" class of any kind at any time soon.

Additionally, nothing with the void elves or Lightforged imply they are BETTER at manipulating said relevant energies. This is really not something I worry about.

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It is already ingame since mop, the Zandalari use some very advanced shadow magic, the kirin tor find it abhorrent, while the sunreavers wanted to figure out how it works.

Shadow =/= void necessarily.

[Combatbutler]

Shadow =/= void necessarily.

It is both the same source actually, shadow magic just doesn't go as deep into the void.

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They absolutely won't become insane in any meaningful way in the story that we are playing because they are playable race... "They will fall" is something that is true but won't happen to the whole population as long as WoW is still the main way to tell WarCraft story thus it's not really meaningful. At most the fate will be demonstrated through Alleria and that's pretty much it. Their continued existence as a playable race is a neccessity. Individuals can fall but it happens to practitioners of any school of magic. In the end, that amounts to really nothing in the story when looking at the big picture.

They won't fall all at once of course, but they might gain new fresh blood after a while, with others embracing their path while others fall. Similar to the forsaken they are pretty much a doomed existence. Lorewise it is very clear that nothing short of fully grown titans can actually withstand the void and is mentioned several times and acknowledged in regards with Alleria herself and her inevitable fall to the void.

[Wildmoon]

They won't fall all at once of course, but they might gain new fresh blood after a while, with others embracing their path while others fall. Similar to the forsaken they are pretty much a doomed existence. Lorewise it is very clear that nothing short of fully grown titans can actually withstand the void and is mentioned several times and acknowledged in regards with Alleria herself and her inevitable fall to the void.

Precisely like the forsaken, their doomed existence is not really meaningful as a threat for their existence in the time frame of WoW. It mostly provides motivatons for characters involved in the plot.

[Combatbutler]

Precisely like the forsaken, their doomed existence is not really meaningful as a threat for their existence in the time frame of WoW.

I never said the void elves would have to fall in wow's lifetime I simply said that they are doomed to fall at one point, for some it could be a week for others a few months, years decades, centuries but in the end every last one of them will fall.

[Wildmoon]

I never said the void elves would have to fall in wow's lifetime I simply said that they are doomed to fall at one point, for some it could be a week for others a few months, years decades, centuries but in the end every last one of them will fall.

What I am getting at is that the doomed to fall at one point part is actually not that meaningful.

[Aeula]

No, we don’t want some void junkies frolicking anywhere near the Sunwell. Let the Alliance have the crazies.

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Dalaran is neutral, has been neutral throughout WoW and will continue to be neutral, stop acting like it won't be.

It really hasn’t. It wasn’t neutral in MoP and it wouldn’t surprise me if they turn on the Horde while Khadgar’s away.

[Combatbutler]

What I am getting at is that the doomed to fall at one point part is actually not that meaningful.

Lorewise it is, gameplay wise it is not.

[Wildmoon]

Lorewise it is, gameplay wise it is not.

In this case, you can not cleanly separate the two because it's tied. Gameplay demands that existential threat does not overcome them in WoW.

[Combatbutler]

In this case, you can not cleanly separate the two because it's tied. Gameplay demands that existential threat does not overcome them in WoW.

It is only important that it does not overcome the playable character, much like with demon hunter who have a quote of 80% failure during initiation and later fall frequently to their inner demon as long as other no names pop up.

[Wildmoon]

It is only important that it does not overcome the playable character, much like with demon hunter who have a quote of 80% failure during initiation and later fall frequently to their inner demon as long as other no names pop up.

The void elves are not really "race" in the same way as humans, orcs, etc in the term of population in the first place.

[Combatbutler]

The void elves are not really "race" in the same way as humans, orcs, etc in the term of population in the first place.

Neither are demon hunters and they too walk a very fine line. All you need to do is mention how occasionally some disillusioned thalasssian comes around and joins their ranks and the problem is solved.

[Wildmoon]

Neither are demon hunters and they too walk a very fine line. All you need to do is mention how occasionally some disillusioned thalasssian comes around and joins their ranks and the problem is solved.

That still means they will continue to exist as a neccessity, so I don't see how that changes anything.

[Combatbutler]

That still means they will continue to exist as a neccessity, so I don't see how that changes anything.

I am talking about lore here and it does matter, because it is established they will fall. But it doesn't matter gameplay wise since the playable character can be given credit for anything or credit taken away from them it isn't even clear that your character actually did half of what you have done lorewise. Alleria withstood the void whispers for 500 years but since she munched on the fallen naaru she seems to be somewhat slipping. So the Void elves have a good chance to make it through the lifetime of wow regardless, since they are elves, live for thousands of years and the precedent is set for someone resisting the void for centuries.

But that doesn't make their fate any less certain.

[Wildmoon]

I am talking about lore here and it does matter, because it is established they will fall. But it doesn't matter gameplay wise since the playable character can be given credit for anything or credit taken away from them it isn't even clear that your character actually did half of what you have done lorewise. Alleria withstood the void whispers for 500 years but since she munched on the fallen naaru she seems to be somewhat slipping. So the Void elves have a good chance to make it through the lifetime of wow regardless, since they are elves, live for thousands of years and the precedent is set for someone resisting the void for centuries.

But that doesn't make their fate any less certain.

As I already said in this case lore and gameplay are tied and cannot be separated cleanly since gameplay rules out certain paths that could happen in certain time frame in lore.

[Combatbutler]

where was that established? In the void whispers and visions which have been canonically described as bullshit, just like the light visions?

Nothing short of fully grown titans can withstand the void so far, Alleria herself knows that she will fall to the void eventually.

Lothraxion spoke up. "I have known darkness, Alleria. I have seen lost creatures. You are not one of them. You have not crossed the threshold."

"I will, one day," she said simply.

The nathrezim scoffed. "In the Legion's name, I did countless things that cannot be forgiven. I committed genocide over and over and over again. The Light redeemed me nonetheless. I will not give up on you, Alleria Windrunner. Not that easily."

Turalyon studied her face. He knew her too well. She appreciated what Lothraxion was saying… but she didn't believe it.

I think you've missed the point of the new void lore of Locus Walker. It's not simply 'resisting the void', it's *controlling the void*. There's a big difference. Locus Walker doesn't resist the void, he controls it. And it'd make a lot more sense if his Ethereals joined the Alliance instead of Void Elves but I guess kicking rocks with Khadgar in Silithus was beneath the 'Alliance hero' Alleria.

And the question is for how long, locus walker is no longer categorized as mortal and is in control, the question remains if he actually can remain in control indefinitely.

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As I already said in this case lore and gameplay are tied and cannot be separated cleanly since gameplay rules out certain paths that could happen in certain time frame in lore.

A few dozens of them going of the rails every year is very possible, especially since blizz hardly cares about logical population numbers and conveniently there would always be void elves left. Sure you would never see their end in the wow timeline, that does not mean they wouldn't end.

It is only important if you see the game as the most important piece of the warcraft lore cosmos, I for example do not.

[Wildmoon]

A few dozens of them going of the rails every year is very possible, especially since blizz hardly cares about logical population numbers and conveniently there would always be void elves left. Sure you would never see their end in the wow timeline, that does not mean they wouldn't end.

It is only important if you see the game as the most important piece of the warcraft lore cosmos, I for example do not.

Well, WoW is currently the most important source for lore and everything else revolves around it. Their demise is not even sure as long as they continue to exist because a new solution is always possible. The same thing goes for the forsaken.