Reasonable standards for a Heroic Coven PUG

[garicasha]

Have been trying to get this on an alt this week, it's a little tricky. A lot of pugs I joined were doomed from the moment they listed in LFG, but I ran my own and on pulls 1, 2, and 3 got it to 6%, 7%, and 18%, so it's definitely in the realm of puggability for ~950 toons.

More so than any other fight this expansion, though, I'd say there are times where a player's death isn't necessarily their fault. Fulminating Pulse + Chilled Blood can go on the same player, which can be during Aman'Thul's or a storm with no RNG safe spot nearby. High ilvl does help quite a bit though as the extra health is money on this fight.

Storms during the Norgannon adds...I don't want to say it's RNG because those adds can be CCed immediately in place, but it's tough for a PUG to have that level of organization. I also think the fight would be better tuned if the order of the Torments was fixed, like on mythic.

This will probably change rapidly, but I have not found that an Argus kill on the toon they bring to be that good of an indicator of performance on that fight. A kill of Coven is much more meaningful IMO, as Coven is arguably harder (and certainly harder to PUG).

The most reasonable expectations I've come up with so far are:
--A voice chat
--After the first set of adds is complete, everyone needs to be north of 1.2M DPS.

It's tricky to judge DPS because a lot of people open super strong and fall off. Meanwhile in my run a shadow priest started at #10 and was #3 by the end of the pull. Interpreting the meters is a little challenging for a PUG RL as well because when people die at random points it's hard to compare apples to apples. I was also trying to look at damage done to aman'thul's, but realized that's susceptible to padding on imminently-healing adds.

Because pugs are so fragile I think you're better off skipping the third tank more for psychological reasons than encounter ones. It's easier to run something like 2 / 5 / 15 because there isn't that much AoE damage going out, but since 3 fulminating pulses and 3 chilled bloods go out, it's easier to have 5 healers tossing out efficient heals on them instead of 3 healers sweating it out. And with 5 heals it is not challenging to keep the tanks up. Although I technically don't know how much the absorb scales with raid size.

I've thought about trying to run something crazy like 2/2/6, but actually killing the adds fast doesn't really decrease incoming damage that much. Maybe a really great group could kill 3 Aman'Thuls adds instead of 2 in the first go...but that wouldn't make much difference.

But if anyone has any other ideas on how performance could be judged quickly or better yet, predicted via armory (at least from toons that would actually need the kill, like ~950s that are 8/11H), post!

[Caprix]

AFAIK it's not a good idea to go 2/2/6. As usual, you get less brezs while at the same time each player death is a bigger loss in dps or hps.
And on this encounter specificly, you stillhave 3 fulminate pulses and 3 frost absorbs. Again AFAIK for the same (or near...) damage/values as with bigger raid sizes...

[xcess]

Just get ppl who have multiple coven and aggramar kills and hope for the best, but its not really a dps race except for when the adds need to be down in a timely manner. Yeah bit RNG some combos are much harder. If same person keeps dying then they need to be booted. Try and get range over melee. We still have more trouble with Coven/Aggramar rekills than Argus

[caractacus]

Just get ppl who have multiple coven and aggramar kills and hope for the best, but its not really a dps race except for when the adds need to be down in a timely manner. Yeah bit RNG some combos are much harder. If same person keeps dying then they need to be booted. Try and get range over melee. We still have more trouble with Coven/Aggramar rekills than Argus

I've been a casual wow player for a long time now and usually play tank or healer (have dabbled in a bit of dps) But I've never really fully understood why people put so much emphasis on the amount of dps they can put out. I remember the days when OOM used to a be problem so the quicker you kill a boss the less this was an issue but it's doens't seem to be a problem nowadays. I also understand there are some elements to a boss fight where you have to dps something down within a certain time or basically it's a wipe so I can see the need there. I just struggle in any other way to see why dps is so important. If it takes 10 minutes or 11 minutes to kill a boss what difference does it make?

[HuxNeva]

Ask all to save CD's for add phases. Be prepared to kick boss tunnelers not switching to adds, even if they have high dps.
RW call-out which add type is coming up next and where people should move in response (you'll be surprised how much this helps).
Clearly mark a spot to start and a direction (clockwise or counter clockwise) for dealing with the healy adds
Prefer ranged> melee

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I've been a casual wow player for a long time now and usually play tank or healer (have dabbled in a bit of dps) But I've never really fully understood why people put so much emphasis on the amount of dps they can put out. I remember the days when OOM used to a be problem so the quicker you kill a boss the less this was an issue but it's doens't seem to be a problem nowadays. I also understand there are some elements to a boss fight where you have to dps something down within a certain time or basically it's a wipe so I can see the need there. I just struggle in any other way to see why dps is so important. If it takes 10 minutes or 11 minutes to kill a boss what difference does it make?

Higher dps makes fights shorter, which reduces the number of times mistakes can/will be made.
That said, many (but not all) fights are more about executing mechanics correctly than a dps race.
Having high burst dps at the right times on the right targets can be a significant factor though, much more than overall max damage

[Eazy]

Require them to link their mythic Coven kill.

And +965ilvl.
And their logs on the mythic kill, they could've just been boosted by their guild.

[Halwyn]

Aside from checking the number of kills - I'd look on how the potential player geared and spec, aside of having the basic minimum of gems and enchants once they're in. IF you know how the spec in question works, that is. There's a lot of resources to help with that nowadays (IV, MMO-champ, class-specific ones like One Stop Lock Shop, Peak of Serenity, Storm Earth and Lava, etc), and having a talent setup that makes no sense or gear that lacks enhancements is just screaming 'Lazy ass that can't read, don't care for my performance'. I understand that heroic is 'mostly' a joke nowadays, but you'd be at least be basing your choice of people on their attitude towards their character.

As for the 'a few wipes later' - don't be afraid to kick people that fail constantly, or die to the obvious mechanics (spinning blade) more than once. Say, set a limit on how much deaths in the spinning blade you're going to tolerate before you boot someone, that will at least put that little thought in the people's heads that you're not going to carry the failiures.

As for the AT's damage... There's little suggestion here, but to log your fights and upload online. There, you'll be able to see the damage dealt to each individual copy before the cast was finished and after and identify the no-clue guys, and the multidot padders. Don't get me wrong, SP, for instance, ARE supposed to put their DOTs on all four and the bosses due to the mechanical reasons, but Balance and Affliction can get away without doing that just fine.

[Tarba]

DPS on pull is useless. People not dying is important. A 950 pug group won't have any problem to down the big adds, even 2 at a time.
Range is easier than melee to pull a better dps.
As a melee myself there are times on that boss were I do nothing, just to not kill people or not die myself. And when people die because they wanted to continue to dps, I’m still in the fight. Of course they’ll have a better dps when we call for wipe soon after. But it won’t mean much. If people stay alive, you won’t get to enrage.

A good plus is a dk tank, to mass grip adds and open a way. And people with multiple kills.
Someone who says what to do on vocal or chat before it happens will help. Most important being before the thunder phase to remember people to spread and not fuck up. But it's just because these people can't read their dbm. So if they are stupid kick them.

[nicbizz]

10 toes and 10 fingers.

[xcess]

I've been a casual wow player for a long time now and usually play tank or healer (have dabbled in a bit of dps) But I've never really fully understood why people put so much emphasis on the amount of dps they can put out. I remember the days when OOM used to a be problem so the quicker you kill a boss the less this was an issue but it's doens't seem to be a problem nowadays. I also understand there are some elements to a boss fight where you have to dps something down within a certain time or basically it's a wipe so I can see the need there. I just struggle in any other way to see why dps is so important. If it takes 10 minutes or 11 minutes to kill a boss what difference does it make?

I think cos maybe most enrage seems fairly generous these days aside from the the obvious dps check bosses like varimathras. Not sure if its Blizz intention or the new flex raid system makes it harder to have enrage timers. Argus and some other bosses would be actually pretty hard with a lower enrage timer. Some fights are a lot easier when you can push phases like KJ. Getting that second add with all the abilities together was hard

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I've been a casual wow player for a long time now and usually play tank or healer (have dabbled in a bit of dps) But I've never really fully understood why people put so much emphasis on the amount of dps they can put out. I remember the days when OOM used to a be problem so the quicker you kill a boss the less this was an issue but it's doens't seem to be a problem nowadays. I also understand there are some elements to a boss fight where you have to dps something down within a certain time or basically it's a wipe so I can see the need there. I just struggle in any other way to see why dps is so important. If it takes 10 minutes or 11 minutes to kill a boss what difference does it make?

Nobody's infallible. Shorter fight means less opportunity for mistakes.

[Evilmoo]

Make sure everyone knows that you can go isometric with camera and see storm safe zones.
Don't be a braindead scrub
bring at least one druid with mass entanglement, or monk with RoP or DK tank.
don't be below 800k dps.
easy.

[Targom]

I don't really see why 3 tanking is considered a strat for this fight. Asara can be tanked by a dps who knows not to stand near the other active mob so your only gain is in the phase where Noura and Diima are up at the same time. Though I suppose as a pug it's a lot easier to dump a low dps and pick up a tank to replace it and not lose as much dps.

[Magnagarde]

Stack up affliction warlocks and shadow priests and use Prydaz. These two things will provide you with an edge. It'll take longer, but I assume it'll pay off in the long run.

[Blamblam41]

Wait until March when it's a (bigger) joke and then log off until BfA.

[dfinberg]

I don't really see why 3 tanking is considered a strat for this fight. Asara can be tanked by a dps who knows not to stand near the other active mob so your only gain is in the phase where Noura and Diima are up at the same time. Though I suppose as a pug it's a lot easier to dump a low dps and pick up a tank to replace it and not lose as much dps.

We did it in guild, the real advantage is it helps DPS to not worry about positioning as much, which probably is increasing their situational awareness of storm/lightning/saber. So not required in any sense, but if it reduces screwups the DPS loss is insignificant.

[caractacus]

I think cos maybe most enrage seems fairly generous these days aside from the the obvious dps check bosses like varimathras. Not sure if its Blizz intention or the new flex raid system makes it harder to have enrage timers. Argus and some other bosses would be actually pretty hard with a lower enrage timer. Some fights are a lot easier when you can push phases like KJ. Getting that second add with all the abilities together was hard

This I get but there does seem an argument that burst dps is better than overall

Nobody's infallible. Shorter fight means less opportunity for mistakes.

This I kinda get but don't understand why it's that important. Surely just concentrate more on not making the mistakes than trying to kill something as quick as possible. Like I said though I'm not a hardcore raider, just trying to understand.

[xcess]

This I kinda get but don't understand why it's that important. Surely just concentrate more on not making the mistakes than trying to kill something as quick as possible. Like I said though I'm not a hardcore raider, just trying to understand.

There is sometimes soft enage and priority targets so you need minimum burst dps, if there wasnt then grps will just bring like 10 heals and have 30 min fights.

People want shorter fights cos maybe they have 10 alts they need to run raids through and they are trying to be efficient. Like I join overgeared normal pug grps which ask for 950 and 960 people cos I just want a quick run so I can do other stuff

[AwkwardSquirtle]

This I kinda get but don't understand why it's that important. Surely just concentrate more on not making the mistakes than trying to kill something as quick as possible. Like I said though I'm not a hardcore raider, just trying to understand.

It's mostly the "nobody's infallible" thing. In an ideal world, yeah, you'd just concentrate on everybody not making mistakes, but especially in a pug, you can't rely on everyone to just not make mistakes.
Also as xcess points out, people don't want to spend more time than they have to, and DPS are replaceable. The majority of players are DPSers. If you can find someone who is just as likely to make a mistake, but does 50k more DPS, you get a quicker fight with no loss.

This also isn't the hardcore scene. Heroic raiding is not hardcore, and I say that as a player in a heroic raiding guild. In Mythic, you actually need that much damage just to kill the boss.

[Canderous1]

cutting edge argus should be about right.