Lack of Moral Ambiguity?

[Tripzzz]

Man, you should calm down with personal attacks, shadow priests are accepted, because entire point of priest order hall is getting diffrent cults together against legion. And just because they help her once, doesnt mean naaru, who are light incarnate, gonna be happy with shadow. It was alliance out of necesity, nothing more.

Personnal attacks? What attacks? Once again you keep using the word "happy" because your argument is trash. We've seen Naaru accept the void as a part of life. Doesnt mean they have to be "happy" about it. Even Velen is now willing to use the Void.

[Arrashi]

Personnal attacks? What attacks? Once again you keep using the word "happy" because your argument is trash. We've seen Naaru accept the void as a part of life. Doesnt mean they have to be "happy" about it.

Given the fact, that naaru need to be drained out of void energy to be any good, i wouldn't say they "accept" it. Not any more than people accept they will die.

[Tripzzz]

Given the fact, that naaru need to be drained out of void energy to be any good, i wouldn't say they "accept" it. Not any more than people accept they will die.

Lmao. People have to accept death whether they like it or not. Thats the point. Acceptance =/= being "happy" . The fact is the void is one of the 2 primordial forces that created the universe. Its extremely powerful and ignoring its power is dumb.

[Arrashi]

Lmao. People have to accept death whether they like it or not. Thats the point. Acceptance =/= being "happy" . The fact is the void is one of the 2 primordial forces that created the universe. Its extremely powerful and ignoring its power is dumb.

It also makes you bald, deformed and insane. Ignoring it seems a very sound decision.

[Deleted]

I wish characters were more complex and there was no simple moral axis in WoW too.

[Garfurion]

As already explained, the Light was originally just "a magic force", especially in Vanilla, where it was wholly underdeveloped. They began developing just what the "Light" even was starting with Burning Crusade, but starting with TBC, the Naaru were pretty much just the 'angelic holy gods' of the lore with absolutely no implied moral ambiguity. Now, with zero build up, Legion retcons the Light into being more morally dark than ever before realized. It's a very hokey retcon.

In general, the only thing worse than a generic good/bad guy is when a story attempts to present characters that are traditionally generic paragons of good/evil (Like the Light, or the angels/demons from the equally hokey Diablo lore) but wants to try saying "Wait, wait, they might be angels and angelic-like beings... but they're ACTUALLY MORALLY GREY!!". Good writing has a lot more finesse than that.

I'm not talking about Xe'ra specifically, I'm talking about all Naaru. Naaru in general have been retconned. They were boring before, but a lazy half-ass direction of "light and void are two sides of a horseshoe" is even worse. Never ever ever in the story has a Naaru done what Xe'ra did, nor have the Naaru ever been presented as anything other than wholly good. There is a very big difference between developing a character and retconning a character. The Naaru weren't developed, they were retconned in a very lazy way. It's bad writing, plain and simple.

I don't think it's a retcon of the Naaru or the Light but rather Blizzard pointing out that Good and Evil depend on your own point of view.

Blizzard addressed this in a (post-)Blizzcon interview with Entrevista (source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PBzHRc4FZY&t=27m43s):

Question: "There is a lot of discussion about the Naaru and Xe'ra after patch 7.3 because the Naaru's were supposed to the prime good of the universe and we see that maybe they are not that good. Xe'ra was different or the Naaru are not as black and white as we thought they were. They were the good and the void were the bad guys."

Answer: "Yes, it's a great point you brought it up. Something that we really wanted to explore with the Argus storyline was that kind of overarching theme of the Light and the Shadow and how do those interact with each other and what do they mean in the greater world of warcraft universe and so Xe'ra is the prime Naaru and what you are kind of touching on, the Naaru are the embodiment of the Light but the Light isn't necessarily good. These primal forces are more morally characterized by how they're wielded and so that's not to say that all Naaru have the same motives or that all Void lords have the same motives necessarily, that they each have their own personality and their own goals but what we were trying in the Argus storyline to explore the idea of not all Naaru, and Xe'ra is an example, aren't necessarily good and that good is kind of told through the players perspective because from Xe'ra's perspective she is doing what she thinks is good but that good isn't necessarily good for us as heroes of Azeroth and so we're trying to infuse some of that gray area that the void or the fel can be wielded against the Burning Legion to what is good to us and just as the light can sometimes be oppressive."

I think they did this in part to explain Alleria/Void Elves are not necessarily evil just because they use the Void. The Light and the Void are opposite primal forces and it's how you use them that matters. Similarly it also means not all Warlocks are necessarily evil.

[Tripzzz]

It also makes you bald, deformed and insane. Ignoring it seems a very sound decision.

And undeath makes you a rotting ugly corpse. Missing jaws and shit. Doesnt stop slyvanus from making more boney hunchbacks.

[huth]

It also makes you bald, deformed and insane. Ignoring it seems a very sound decision.

Because turning a blind eye towards that which seeks to corrupt you has ever worked out. Just hide under your blanket and the evil monster can't get you.

[Arrashi]

And undeath makes you a rotting ugly corpse. Missing jaws and shit. Doesnt stop slyvanus from making more boney hunchbacks.

And still doesn't make you hear voices in your head.

- - - Updated - - -

Because turning a blind eye towards that which seeks to corrupt you has ever worked out. Just hide under your blanket and the evil monster can't get you.

Its quite a good tactic to not interact with something that so far menaged to corrupt everything it touched.

Tho i understand that badass like you would handle radioactive materials without any protection.

[Tripzzz]

And still doesn't make you hear voices in your head.

Instead you get maggots in your flesh! But dont worry, you wont feel em, most of the time anyway.

[Arrashi]

Instead you get maggots in your flesh! But dont worry, you wont feel em, most of the time anyway.

And once again, you aren't plaything for a disembodied voices in your head. Unlike void elves.

[Tripzzz]

And once again, you aren't plaything for a disembodied voices in your head. Unlike void elves.

Nah. You're just dinner for some maggots. Way better.

[Arrashi]

Nah. You're just dinner for some maggots. Way better.

Given how long can forsaken function those must be vegetarian maggots.

[Tripzzz]

Given how long can forsaken function those must be vegetarian maggots.

Maybe they only like the meat around the joints.

[therealstegblob]

I don't think it's a retcon of the Naaru or the Light but rather Blizzard pointing out that Good and Evil depend on your own point of view.

Blizzard addressed this in a (post-)Blizzcon interview with Entrevista (source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PBzHRc4FZY&t=27m43s):

Question: "There is a lot of discussion about the Naaru and Xe'ra after patch 7.3 because the Naaru's were supposed to the prime good of the universe and we see that maybe they are not that good. Xe'ra was different or the Naaru are not as black and white as we thought they were. They were the good and the void were the bad guys."

Answer: "Yes, it's a great point you brought it up. Something that we really wanted to explore with the Argus storyline was that kind of overarching theme of the Light and the Shadow and how do those interact with each other and what do they mean in the greater world of warcraft universe and so Xe'ra is the prime Naaru and what you are kind of touching on, the Naaru are the embodiment of the Light but the Light isn't necessarily good. These primal forces are more morally characterized by how they're wielded and so that's not to say that all Naaru have the same motives or that all Void lords have the same motives necessarily, that they each have their own personality and their own goals but what we were trying in the Argus storyline to explore the idea of not all Naaru, and Xe'ra is an example, aren't necessarily good and that good is kind of told through the players perspective because from Xe'ra's perspective she is doing what she thinks is good but that good isn't necessarily good for us as heroes of Azeroth and so we're trying to infuse some of that gray area that the void or the fel can be wielded against the Burning Legion to what is good to us and just as the light can sometimes be oppressive."

I think they did this in part to explain Alleria/Void Elves are not necessarily evil just because they use the Void. The Light and the Void are opposite primal forces and it's how you use them that matters. Similarly it also means not all Warlocks are necessarily evil.

Yeah that was a "nice" explanation and whatever, but it's still a retconning. They retconned it drastically and immediately, there was no story build up at all to what they did. It's unjustifiable as good writing.

[huth]

Its quite a good tactic to not interact with something that so far menaged to corrupt everything it touched.

Which is why you shouldn't ignore it, so you can avoid it. Hard to avoid something when you aren't even willing to acknowledge it exists and don't know how to handle it safely.

Much like radioactive materials. Only somebody ignorant of them would think it a good idea to handle them unprotected.

[Arrashi]

Which is why you shouldn't ignore it, so you can avoid it. Hard to avoid something when you aren't even willing to acknowledge it exists and don't know how to handle it safely.

Much like radioactive materials. Only somebody ignorant of them would think it a good idea to handle them unprotected.

The diffrence is that most intelligent people acknowledged that you can't handle void safely. See sunwell incident.

[Zulkhan]

Which is why you shouldn't ignore it, so you can avoid it.

Or you simply give yourself to the Void faster by doing so.

It may sound like an enlightened concept in theory but in practice the failure rate when it comes to Void harnessing is so high that is not even funny. If it wasn't for Alleria and her unique training under an unique individual who achieved what no other could, Umbric and his followers would have met the same fate of countless others. Which means that, under ordinary circumstances (which so far covers 99,99!% of cases) leaving the Void be is the sensible choice.

[MrSaggins]

As already explained, the Light was originally just "a magic force", especially in Vanilla, where it was wholly underdeveloped. They began developing just what the "Light" even was starting with Burning Crusade, but starting with TBC, the Naaru were pretty much just the 'angelic holy gods' of the lore with absolutely no implied moral ambiguity. Now, with zero build up, Legion retcons the Light into being more morally dark than ever before realized. It's a very hokey retcon.

And again, as already explained, the Light was originally a monotheistic faith before it was retconned

http://wowpedia.org/Retcon_1#The_Holy_Light

In general, the only thing worse than a generic good/bad guy is when a story attempts to present characters that are traditionally generic paragons of good/evil (Like the Light, or the angels/demons from the equally hokey Diablo lore) but wants to try saying "Wait, wait, they might be angels and angelic-like beings... but they're ACTUALLY MORALLY GREY!!". Good writing has a lot more finesse than that.

I'm not talking about Xe'ra specifically, I'm talking about all Naaru. Naaru in general have been retconned. They were boring before, but a lazy half-ass direction of "light and void are two sides of a horseshoe" is even worse. Never ever ever in the story has a Naaru done what Xe'ra did, nor have the Naaru ever been presented as anything other than wholly good. There is a very big difference between developing a character and retconning a character. The Naaru weren't developed, they were retconned in a very lazy way. It's bad writing, plain and simple.

I thought they were ambiguous, and potentially shady. This doesn't feel like a retcon to me so much as an explanation. But I do know what you mean by grey characters tending to feel too grey and bland sometimes; incapable of embracing either extreme occasionally. And when you have malevolent angels and benevolent demons who are more than exceptions to their rules it can get boring.

Getting your entire people killed and permanently stuck in a ghost state they aren't too happy about is hard to call a bad call?

Either way, he's nothing even remotely close to a Mary Sue.

When the alternative is they all become demons or die anyway, yeah.

Jarod is already on the Alliance side but puts it aside to fight the greater threat in Legion and Kalec doesn't really do much of anything in Legion, so what side he is on doesn't matter.

I imagine it matters to Jaina And has Jarod ever done anything specifically anti-Horde? Perhaps I'm not familiar enough with the character.

Instead you get maggots in your flesh!

Maggots need to eat too!

[Chubark]

Snip

In general, the only thing worse than a generic good/bad guy is when a story attempts to present characters that are traditionally generic paragons of good/evil (Like the Light, or the angels/demons from the equally hokey Diablo lore) but wants to try saying "Wait, wait, they might be angels and angelic-like beings... but they're ACTUALLY MORALLY GREY!!". Good writing has a lot more finesse than that.

Snip

You... You do realize that Angels and Demons from Diablo have always been written as morally grey, right? Angels hated Humanity and the vast majority wanted to exterminate them, and the angel who saved humanity's powers resurrect the unjustifiably slain to murder innocents, albeit unintentionally? I can agree with the light and shadow part being forced, since there's already order and chaos forces, but don't try to pass off Diablo's writing like it was a recent retcon or something.