Sweden has received too many immigrants

[Strawberry]

I'm not Swedish xD

Not my problem.

Oh man you'd love me even if you were Swedish.

I love heavy metal, I don't give a crap about religion, culture or tradition. And I'm materialistic, like many Scandinavians

[ParanoiD84]

There we go one civilian dead after handgrenade attack, was just a matter of time.

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60 years old man died and his wife is severely hurt, fun times in sweden. Even the immigrants who gets interviewed says they dont feel safe it's chaos and will only get worse.

[Deleted]

This isn't a discussion. This is me giving you literally free knowledge that you have summarily ignored multiple times now.

You are just wrong, it does not fucking matter why You are pro migration, the fact remains that the left wing motivation for migration is to reduce inequality, and the right wing motivation is a right's based approach - this is simple reality.
There is absolutely no problem for a left wing person to argue from a right's based position, but that remains a right wing position.
this is just a matter of definitions.

Even in the same post you call the anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats a centrist party (which it is)

yes - which relates to my point how?

You need to study the political compass. That's my final lesson to you. Good luck.

Gods, the political compass doesn't have anything to do with this...

[Deleted]

Swede here, yep theres a clusterf*ck with politics, refugees and immigrants, of course theres two sides of the coin, a catch-22 you could say, our morals for human rights says that we shouldn´t turn away refugees, though to know who are immigrants riding the refugee wave and whos an actual refugee takes just to long to figure out when to many comes into the country, BUT we can´t handle them, so how do we turn away people in need with nowhere to go?
The Swedish politicians are stupid, the people riding the refugee wave are stupid, and it´s all been compromised into this weird system where everyone that comes in from outside of EU is left hanging, are you trying to get money here in sweden and not a refugee? Have fun holding out for 8 years to get a citizenship, are you an actual refugee? Well at least you´re not in a warzone.

They clearly need help in their own countries though, to make them better for them to stay in.

But Trump can stfu about Sweden honestly, it´s a cowardly move to try to make America look better by stomping on another country for their mistakes, "You saw what happened in Sweden last friday!", No, what exactly happened? Someone took a fika, oh no how horrid...Fake news!

[Deleted]

I just want to say thank you to Sweden and Germany for taking so many in.

Thanks to you guys, and your generous offerings to them, we have almost none in the Netherlands (and many have already moved away again because other countries offered better deals)

[ParanoiD84]

I just want to say thank you to Sweden and Germany for taking so many in.

Thanks to you guys, and your generous offerings to them, we have almost none in the Netherlands (and many have already moved away again because other countries offered better deals)

Im gonna put out notes saying netherlands offer free housing, free cars and free money

[Deleted]

Im gonna put out notes saying netherlands offer free housing, free cars and free money

Too late, we already published this a couple of years ago We are, like, the smartest people in Europe!

[ParanoiD84]

Too late, we already published this a couple of years ago We are, like, the smartest people in Europe!

Haha damn, why didnt sweden think of this.

[Deleted]

"It's about equality and human rights.. you know.. left and right!"

Are property right's more important than equality? - Really just answer this one.

What the hell the rest of this deserves a reply too:

What the FUCK are you talking about?? That's explicitly authoritarian/libertarian reasoning! What the fuck does that have to do with left/right dimensions????

No, it isn't, that's your straw man.

Listen to this: there's MORE THAN ONE DIMENSION TO POLITICAL SCIENCE. ***YOU*** responded to my post explaining this, and ONLY this. *YOU* have done nothing to respond to that, whether to acknowledge it or invalidate it.

Of course political science is multi dimensional, that does not undermine my argument in any way.

You're literally claiming I'm a special snowflake for being anti-authoritarian????

I called you a special snowflake because you wanted your right's based stance to be left wing, because you are left wing, which doesn't make any sense - The right's based approach is right wing in nature, regardless of there being left wing people who argue that position.

Lol.. YOU mentioned a centrist, anti-immigration party. Which is it? Left or right??? Are you capable of even reconciling such a thought? I could beat you over the head with it a million times but who knows if it will ever sink in.

you can argue against immigration from both left wing and right wing perspectives, regardless one position does not define a party.

Think carefully before you choose to publicly advertise your unfathomable ignorance. I'm seriously reeling at your hubris. Study the fucking political compass. Otherwise keep using Elmo's PlaySkool Phone in a discussion about smartphones.

You aren't even wrong.

[Raakel]

It's not a secret that the integration of refugees that somehow turned into immigrants has failed in Germany and Sweden. People are just not willing to admit it because "we told you so" and as soon as you said something against it you where a Nazi...hilarious. A recent study has revealed that even after 1300 hours of German lessons 80% fail the test to be able to do just basic work jobs - 600.000 refugees live on welfare, etc.. Guess you have that ratio in Sweden as well. To me refuge is not a permanent state and if you can't send them back you have to take only that many in that can be turned into tax paying workers.

It may sound strange but the German Government does nothing to encourage Germans to reproduce on a higher rate to fight demographic changes (people getting old + low birth rates) and instead think they can solve this by taking in people that don't fit to the system. What's the logic in that?

Don't get me wrong - I'd never let someone die at my doorsteps or drown at sea but I'm a strong believer that the problems have to be solved in the originating countries.

[Deianeira]

You know what, I won't change my opinion on that you are being a bit dumb, but I just celebrated New Year in Sweden and I have to admit my perception of immigration in my country changed drastically as I watched two groups of people (mostly if not all immigrants) shoot fireworks at each other whilst simultaneously hit buildings and windows in the vicinity. Admittedly, this may have been just another case of alcohol, but it seems like a bit to much of a coincidence.

However, I'm still happy I don't live in the US. For reasons listed earlier and many more.

Hmm this happened when i was younger and we celebrated NY many times and i also live in Sweden and at that time there was not all that many immigrants atleast not in my part of the country.

[Deleted]

In the end, it's good that Sweden sacrificed it's future to serve as a warning for the rest of us in Europe.

[Deleted]

They already raised the pension age with 3 years across the board. The new moderate leader said he thought it was a fine idea to raise it so that you work till you are 75 even.

The social contract has long since been broken, we can no longer rely on the government for support or even that we will be able to retire at all. These days I'd actually prefer the American 401K pension system even though I would have never wanted to trade only 10 years ago. At least with a 401k it's money under my own control that I can do with as I please.

[blobthebob]

Well some muslims share hate towards jews with nazis and were their allies in WW2, so don't be too suprised [...]

Accurate and inaccurate. Some muslim countries, like Egypt, did side with Nazi Germany during WW2. It's important, however, to remember that Egypt had been occupied by Britain since 1882. Egypt gained its freedom in 1923, but British forces were soon reinstated in 1939. One could argue that Hitler, with his ideological luggage, presented himself as a solution to Egypt -- an enemy of the enemy, of sorts. To Hitler, the arabs were considered inferior.

To say that Egypt sided with Nazi Germany due to their shared hatred of jews, is far too simplistic. You've clearly forgotten to add circumstances and politics into the equation. Even the Soviets, with their atheistic communism, gained muslim allies.

[Voidwielder]

Immigration, especially for countries and societies like Sweden - well established, with long history - has to be very, very small. How much, hard to say.

But it's clear that the dogmatic belief in multiculturalism and essentially taking in an entire city annually has been damaging in all important aspects.

[Deleted]

A strawman is when you take another person's argument, dishonestly reframe it, and attack the reframed position, which is likely set up to be indefensible.

yeah that's what you did.

My "strawman" is literally the whole purpose of my post, which I made before you even joined the discussion. The very purpose that has completely escaped your comprehension. You're only now calling it a strawman because such a realization, four posts in, makes your participation in this discussion borderline dementia.

No, first off, all of this pertains to this disscussion:
Originating here:

1> The left/right political axis is primarily about social inequality, not economics.

My first injection specifically into this tangent:

And all hierarchical political systems are right wing systems?
Think that definition is slightly too broad to be useful.

Predating your first post in this thread.

Your "argument" is that there are TWO ways. A left way and a right way. Please see attached picture.
Notice the one dimension you are using? Notice how literally one post ago you said "multiple dimensions [the political compass] has nothing to do with this"? Yeah.. dementia.

• Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.

• Right-wing politics hold that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal or desirable, typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics or tradition.

It is beyond clear, that the position 'migration reduces inequality' pertains to the first line of thought.
Whereas arguments pertaining to the supremacy of rights (like freedom of movement) is clearly a right wing position - See underlined.

Words don't work so, why not pictures...

Okay, I didn't say that being pro, or against, migration was an issue that fell on the right wing/left wing scale - you demonstrate that it doesn't very well, but it's almost like i said that before...

Even in the same post you call the anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats a centrist party (which it is).

A position regarding immigration does not necessitate any particular position in Any political dimension.
Appeals to Right's is a right wing argument, Appeals to Equality, is a left wing argument - This is just how the left/right scale is defined (regardless of it being the only scale, or only one parameter in a multi-dimensional system) - This all draws from the core and basic argument between the left and the right, is property rights more important than equality - Everything stems from that division when you are talking about left/right - Regardless of the amounts of dimensions.

You haven't even mentioned the economic impact of immigration...

Because it doesn't matter to this discussion?
If i Argue A, because I like Z, Whether or not A achieves Z does not matter when we are talking about my intentions, because I intended Z.
You were not even wrong, because it doesn't matter what other dimensions you add to the system, the core issue is still this:
Are property right's more important than equality?

[Deianeira]

I'm advocating for them to act like Swedes instead of harboring bigotry of low expectations for them.

And how do Swedes act?

[Deleted]

In the end, it's good that Sweden sacrificed it's future to serve as a warning for the rest of us in Europe.

Sadly salutes the world as I go down with the ship that is my country
But honestly, I hope it stops.

[Deleted]

And how do Swedes act?

Swedes don´t do anything cause we´re to afraid of conflict.

We are a LGBT friendly country but during Pride, immigrants was burning the LGBT flag, unaccaptable, if they come here they gotta accept what we believe in.

We do not allow childmarriage, but it still happens by immigrants who practice it, also unaccaptable, if that happens here they should get punishment according to Swedish law or banished from the country.

The tolerance for their violence needs to stop, yes they most likely had a tough time fleeing and all, but they are taking over some cities and the crime there is rising, it should not be allowed, if they are violent when they got a HOME here, they should be thankful they got help despite all the immigration chaos.

But no, it keeps happening cause people are to sissy about it, they´re not even helping these people with therapy which would be a typical human-rights way of solving things.

[Mafic]

In the end, it's good that Sweden sacrificed it's future to serve as a warning for the rest of us in Europe.

I have to agree.

Eastern Europe already understands this but a lot of western Europe and the Scandinavians countries do not. Well, Norway is more sympathetic to what the Eastern European countries are doing.

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They already raised the pension age with 3 years across the board. The new moderate leader said he thought it was a fine idea to raise it so that you work till you are 75 even.

The social contract has long since been broken, we can no longer rely on the government for support or even that we will be able to retire at all. These days I'd actually prefer the American 401K pension system even though I would have never wanted to trade only 10 years ago. At least with a 401k it's money under my own control that I can do with as I please.

Social contract has been broken long ago. What is left now is watching unsustainable growth collapse these countries. Greece was a warning.

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Swedes don´t do anything cause we´re to afraid of conflict.

We are a LGBT friendly country but during Pride, immigrants was burning the LGBT flag, unaccaptable, if they come here they gotta accept what we believe in.

We do not allow childmarriage, but it still happens by immigrants who practice it, also unaccaptable, if that happens here they should get punishment according to Swedish law or banished from the country.

The tolerance for their violence needs to stop, yes they most likely had a tough time fleeing and all, but they are taking over some cities and the crime there is rising, it should not be allowed, if they are violent when they got a HOME here, they should be thankful they got help despite all the immigration chaos.

But no, it keeps happening cause people are to sissy about it, they´re not even helping these people with therapy which would be a typical human-rights way of solving things.

Don't feel too bad.

Ancient Athens sentenced Socrates to death because he spoke the truth. But yeah if Swedish people are afraid to openly talk about truth in a democracy then that democracy is finished.