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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Being older doesn't necessarily make it better gameplay. Shards in vanilla took up bag space and had to be farmed.
    Also don't forget that specs have diversified significantly since vanilla. Back then you played a warlock, who specialised in some areas. Now you play a demonology warlock, who has no rotational spells in common with a destruction warlock. I think the demons work far better as a unifying feature class-wide than soul shards do. Soul shards as a resource limit class design, and it goes completely contrary to the changes made to other classes going into Legion. Paladin and Brewmaster tanks lost their formerly class-wide resource because it didn't make sense for the spec mechanically. For warlocks they went the other way, and it damaged Destruction significantly until they reverted it halfway through.
    I'm not saying that soul shards are intrinsically bad, but they should not be held on to as a core feature that cannot be disposed of if it limits class design. If they can make a better iteration of demonology while retaining soul shards, great. We'll just have to see if that's the case.
    Removing from specs is what turned me off legion. They grabbed windwalkers and decided that all they could keep was punch and kick theme, removing all mystical abilities from them.Zen meditation gone, diffuse magic gutted, orbs and brews removed.

    I'm playing a single class with specs giving a nudge in gameplay. I don't want specs to pretend like it's a different class, just as I detest the idea that destruction warlocks should not use curses and demonology warlocks should mostly summon demons and lost soulfire and immolation aura.

    Soul shards as a resource need to be no different from fury. It's their design, not their presence that's problematic.

    Warlocks have always drawn powers from drained souls, and it should stay that way.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    Removing from specs is what turned me off legion.
    Well, both options have their problems. If you give too many abilities to all the specs, the homogenization weakens spec identity. Where you say "I don't want to feel like a different class", others will say "I want this spec to feel unique". You can't please everyone.

    And to be fair, Demo was pretty different from the other specs even in the past. It was among the most unique caster specs in general, arguably the most unique. That was not because of ability overlap across specs, though, but mainly because of Metamorphosis, which was a fairly unique ability.

    While I did enjoy Demo gameplay particularly during MoP, I totally understand the reasoning behind switching Meta over to DHs. It was a cool ability that players should have, but it never felt very Warlock-y to me. Turning yourself into a demonic monster feels to me like what SHOULDN'T happen to a good Warlock. It's the sign of failure, of not managing to hold on and keep in control. As a Warlock, I COMMAND demons, I don't BECOME one, at least that's how it has always felt to me. Demon Hunters, who willingly make the sacrifice of going down that dangerous path, are a much better fit for the ability imo. Demonology warlocks should be about commanding powerful demons to do your bidding - and Blizz apparently agree with that class fantasy.

    That being said, I do NOT appreciate the current implementation of that fantasy. The spec feels clunky and overly complicated, with few interesting elements and a very precarious niche (turret-style no-movement single-target DPS). The rotation is full of unnecessary fluff and contrived mechanics like the whole imp thing, and there is fairly little that makes you actually FEEL like a powerful demon summoner. I think it would work better with a less-is-more approach, adding some actual meat rather than throwaway. Perhaps restrict Grimoire of Service to Demo and make it summon multiple pets at once; perhaps make Grimoire of Supremacy exclusive to Demo; perhaps give it the ability to actually go out and enslave a demon much like Hunters tame pets; perhaps give it several permanent demon pets (maybe ALL of the summoned demons? Imp+VW+Succ+Felhunter at the same time?). Something like that. POWERFUL demons rather than "lol I just threw 20 imps at your head".

  3. #23
    I am Murloc! DrMcNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    Why? Shards were the foundation of the warlock class since vanilla. They existed far long before demonic fury or metamorphosis did.
    Except they were vastly different up until Cataclysm. Now they're just a fancy resource that happened to have the name "Soul Shard".

    Metamorphosis existed before that new iteration, while the old physical Soul Shard served entirely different purposes. The loss of soul shards as a UI resource wouldn't be missed by me, because it's much like other existing resources that you generate and spend.
    Last edited by DrMcNinja; 2018-01-03 at 04:26 AM.

  4. #24
    Remove life tap.

  5. #25
    Honestly seeing the way they reworked disc priest in the middle of legion with it's talent changes gives me a lot of hope for demo. The talent and ability changes they gave disc helped make it way more flexible and less awkward to play. At this point what demo really needs is a few less hardcasts and better target swapping options and it would be a lot better.
    Resident BM Asshole


  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Toastiekins View Post
    Demonology is not bad. Demo puts up great numbers. Affliction is just overpowered. (ps make darkglare baseline eepocheer
    That's true, but to me it's just too clunky to fully enjoy.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMcNinja View Post
    Except they were vastly different up until Cataclysm. Now they're just a fancy resource that happened to have the name "Soul Shard".

    Metamorphosis existed before that new iteration, while the old physical Soul Shard served entirely different purposes. The loss of soul shards as a UI resource wouldn't be missed by me, because it's much like other existing resources that you generate and spend.
    Yeah, I see soul shards as little more than a way for the devs to get more classes using a combo point system. Holy Power falls in to this as well, as does DK runes in Legion. It works, but you do tend to feel like a rogue sometimes.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeranath View Post
    Yeah, I see soul shards as little more than a way for the devs to get more classes using a combo point system. Holy Power falls in to this as well, as does DK runes in Legion. It works, but you do tend to feel like a rogue sometimes.
    Well, that's certainly one way you can generalize. I mean, in the end the entire resource system in WoW can just be divided into two types: automatically regenerating resource (mana, energy, focus, and so on) and triggered resource (combo points, holy power, soul shards) - runes, by the way, may seem like combo points but actually reverse things and work more like mana, while runic power is effectively "combo points" instead.

    What distinguishes the systems is usually the speed at which these resources are generated/used, and how many abilities are involved. As such, calling a Warlock's gameplay "Rogue-like" because they use a triggered resource system is misleading because it doesn't accurately reflect the pacing of the gameplay at all. Both Rogue and Monk are probably the fastest-paced users of such resources, constantly generating and spending with every attack - while Warlocks go through them in a slower and more cyclical fashion, having only one really active generator (Drain Soul) with the other being nearly passive (Agony). While there are definitely mechanical parallels, the gameplay difference is quite substantial.

    I'm not an opponent of soul shards myself, at least in general. I do however feel that perhaps they're not really necessary for ALL the specs. Destruction in particular always seemed to me to be more about manipulating fel and chaotic energies, much more ruthlessly and unscrupulously than other elemental energy users like Mages or Shamans but not really involving people's souls too much - though I guess fel is fueled by souls, or something, so there's that. Affliction of course feels very much like it's involved with what's going on inside people, and how to get it out and/or make it hurt; totally on board with soul shards for that. Demonology, now, that's an interesting one. What's the deal with those demons? I mean, literally, what are the terms of their servitude to us, and how are we attracting and/or enslaving them in the first place. Exactly. Are we feeding them souls? Luring them with souls? Do they serve us for a promise of payment or because we'll kill them if they don't? It could be interesting to explore that with a resource system in mind.

  9. #29
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toastiekins View Post
    Demonology is not bad. Demo puts up great numbers.
    just because put great numbers don't mean the spec is not bad in the sense of gameplay and rotation. Demo just feel boring and impossible to enjoy

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Well, both options have their problems. If you give too many abilities to all the specs, the homogenization weakens spec identity. Where you say "I don't want to feel like a different class", others will say "I want this spec to feel unique". You can't please everyone.

    And to be fair, Demo was pretty different from the other specs even in the past. It was among the most unique caster specs in general, arguably the most unique. That was not because of ability overlap across specs, though, but mainly because of Metamorphosis, which was a fairly unique ability.

    While I did enjoy Demo gameplay particularly during MoP, I totally understand the reasoning behind switching Meta over to DHs. It was a cool ability that players should have, but it never felt very Warlock-y to me. Turning yourself into a demonic monster feels to me like what SHOULDN'T happen to a good Warlock. It's the sign of failure, of not managing to hold on and keep in control. As a Warlock, I COMMAND demons, I don't BECOME one, at least that's how it has always felt to me. Demon Hunters, who willingly make the sacrifice of going down that dangerous path, are a much better fit for the ability imo. Demonology warlocks should be about commanding powerful demons to do your bidding - and Blizz apparently agree with that class fantasy.
    Except there used to be lore that explain the fact that useing/infusing yourself with lots of fel energy made you spawn horns/wings and basically transform you into a demonlike being. Granted Warlocks shouldn't become demons, but I liked the fact that my "power overwhelming fantasy" gave me wings/horns and allowed me to demonleap and just generaly feel like a badass. Instead of the regular DPS cooldowns we could use it all the time (albeit with 10s cd) and it gave us more of a visual then the regular crackling of energy or some misty stuff around us.

    #BringWoD/MoPDemoBack.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Well, that's certainly one way you can generalize. I mean, in the end the entire resource system in WoW can just be divided into two types: automatically regenerating resource (mana, energy, focus, and so on) and triggered resource (combo points, holy power, soul shards) - runes, by the way, may seem like combo points but actually reverse things and work more like mana, while runic power is effectively "combo points" instead.
    There is also a 3rd which demo used to have, a rage/runic power/fury builder/spender style resource. Especially Demonic Fury with a very large pool in MetaDemo was fun to me. You could take 30s+ to max it/spend it. Sure at the start with BL having 0 Molten Core procs and 0 Demonic Fury sucked, that was 1 way I liked the DB talent. When you press meta without DB and you had only 2 Soulfires to cast #feelsbadman.

  11. #31
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    I haven't even been able to get my warlock to 110 due to the Legion Demo changes, goddamn are they bad. Short-lived (to the point casting DE after feels awkward BECAUSE DEMONS LIVE AS LONG AS DE'S DURATION!*) demons that you can't really keep track of what damage they're actually doing in that sea of tiny damage ticks other than looking at Skada afterwards, and having to weave that clunky DE garbage every other cast.

    Legion's Demo redesign is actually the first time since I started playing in 2006 where a redesign so royally destroyed my enjoyment of a spec I dropped it more or less entirely, it's quite a feat. My lock is currently lvl 103, probably won't hit 110 before BFA at this rate. Only thing I enjoy about the spec right now is Darkglare because I really like the bouncing spell together with Hand of Doom... and they fuck it up by having Darkglare cost a shard so you can only keep it smooth on AoE/shortlived trash by having 5 shards at the pull, else you have to cast a Shadowbolt inbetween. This is course while feeling annoyed you have a crucial DE to cast afterwards for your useless imps that are doing 0 damage meanwhile.

    I'm quite amazed Demo has gone through almost all of Legion without getting some sort of emergency redesign because holy crap is it a mess.

    *I suppose it's partially to make sure you don't have to buff demons more than once but goddamn does it feel like a clunky mess. And why doesn't the UI even show the buff duration somewhere?
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2018-01-10 at 08:56 AM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuvial View Post
    Except there used to be lore that explain the fact that useing/infusing yourself with lots of fel energy made you spawn horns/wings and basically transform you into a demonlike being. Granted Warlocks shouldn't become demons, but I liked the fact that my "power overwhelming fantasy" gave me wings/horns and allowed me to demonleap and just generaly feel like a badass. Instead of the regular DPS cooldowns we could use it all the time (albeit with 10s cd) and it gave us more of a visual then the regular crackling of energy or some misty stuff around us.
    While true, I always found that rather silly. Warlocks are casters, why would they care about physical abilities like that? And WoW lore isn't exactly set in stone, it's frequently retconned or reinterpreted as needed. I can see the Fel influence causing certain changes, but to go as far as emphasizing the physical to the degree Metamorphosis used to do never sat too well with me. It's a MUCH better fit for Demon Hunters, who go precisely after that aspect fully knowing what it entails.

    Maybe three expansions from now we'll have more cosmetic options to reflect subtle Fel-influenced body changes, but the emphasis would be on subtle. Horns, maybe, but not a 10-foot black beefcake.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    While true, I always found that rather silly. Warlocks are casters, why would they care about physical abilities like that? And WoW lore isn't exactly set in stone, it's frequently retconned or reinterpreted as needed. I can see the Fel influence causing certain changes, but to go as far as emphasizing the physical to the degree Metamorphosis used to do never sat too well with me. It's a MUCH better fit for Demon Hunters, who go precisely after that aspect fully knowing what it entails.

    Maybe three expansions from now we'll have more cosmetic options to reflect subtle Fel-influenced body changes, but the emphasis would be on subtle. Horns, maybe, but not a 10-foot black beefcake.
    I personaly rather liked it, 250% armor and Leap (the physical part) and a mayor Mastery boost for all spells cast in Meta (big magical part). The gfx nowadays could be more subtle to Vengance like spines instead of a full body makeover.

  14. #34
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haajib View Post
    They mentioned a long time ago that they are going to rework the entire spec from the foundation into something that people can play.
    They said that last time.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Scythist View Post
    That's true, but to me it's just too clunky to fully enjoy.
    Demo with 40% haste and the right leggos actually feels pretty fluid for me, plus the only RNG you've got is SC and that isn't even that big of a deal if you don't get a lot of SS refunds. Completely opposite of Affliction where RNG is the basis of the whole spec (RNG shards and RNG souls).

    Demo would still be a viable spec if 75% of the ABT bosses weren't high movement/target switching/council type fights.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    I am clueless beyond any reason of human mind how on earth they are going to salvage the demonology spec.

    The best thing to do is to scrap the whole concept. Go back to 2012 in terms of gameplay and evolve from there.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Haajib View Post
    I am clueless beyond any reason of human mind how on earth they are going to salvage the demonology spec.

    The best thing to do is to scrap the whole concept. Go back to 2012 in terms of gameplay and evolve from there.
    I would love this lol.

    I liked when demo was the half-way spec between aff and destruction but with a focus on the warlock's synergy with their main demon and a combination of shadow and fire spells.

  18. #38
    Facts:

    -Blizz said that they are not happy with demon and are going to work on it, its a "failed experiment"

    -Blizz talked about less demons and for specific tasks

    -Meta is not going to return

  19. #39
    This is my wishlist for BfA.

    Soul Harvest baseline.
    Options to bake damage back into the player.
    - no imps/ dogs
    - sacrifice viable

    A way to opt into (or out of pets)
    - choosing your shard dump ir altering current spenders. For example.

    Level 15 -

    Summon dreadstalkers - summon 2 dreadstalkers to attack your target for 8 seconds 1.5 second cast. 2 shards
    Soulfire - deals fire damage costs a shard always critical strikes 1.5 second cast.
    Demonbolt - deals chaos damage increasing the damage of your demon against the target by 20% for 10 seconds 1.5 second cast. 2 shards

    Demo mastery reverted to old demonic knowledge affecting the player and his demon.


    Chaos bolt cost reduced to 1 shard to enable pooling again.

    A Fel lord for demo.

    Lucrece mentioned a change to life tap. Maybe could have a verdant sphere mechanic like Kael in HoTS, but we already have shards so idk.

    Just some things off the top of my head and things i've liked ablut past iterations of warlock etc.
    Last edited by Maleific; 2018-01-12 at 06:55 PM.

  20. #40
    Just remove Demonic Empowerment and Life Tap. There I fixed the spec.

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