[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Kazgrel]

Almost done with my crafters but god damn fucking amphiptre skin is the god damn worst thing to farm.

That's where LTW desynth paid off for me in HW. Think I have a stack of that leather still.

Only other suggestion I have would be having a combat retainer run out and fetch those while you do actual fun stuff.

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I've been toiling away at a full combat redesign and Paladin rework thread. It's not finished, but im done the redesign and about 50% done the paladin rework. Once it's done keep an eye out for it.

That said I PERSONALLY find more abilities better, BUT only if they have ACTUAL value. Not usable on one fight once a year.

Off the top of my head putting absolutely minimal effort in for PLD.

Tempered Will could simply be baked into Sheltron with no issues. Why it's a 3M cooldown I'll never know.
Both Stances could go, and be baked into weaponskills/oGCDs. I.e. Bake the threat into Rage of Halone. Make us cast it more than once a fight. Bake the passive auto attack DPS into RA/GB. Bake the 20% damage redux into Rage of Halone as like a debuff to minimize incoming damage. This way you'd be casting a lower DPS ability, but generating mitigation and threat simultaneously and organically.
Flash could be deleted and threat baked into Total Eclipse.

That's not even counting incorporating the pvp weaponskill paradigm, but I think it'd need a minutia of effort in order to work out in a decent manner so I excluded it.

Then there's role actions. God what a shitshow of silly ass abilities that could be baked into other abilities freeing up even more slots.

I'm ok with Flash and TE being separate as they are, although that begs the question of how often does a PLD find themselves in an OT role spamming TE to do mad dps? I wouldn't shed a tear if they got the treatment you mentioned.

Role actions: Great idea, poorly pulled off. If you think the tanks one are bad, ask any healer main about how wonderful role actions are *cough* Protect *cough*.

[Granyala]

Role actions: Great idea, poorly pulled off. If you think the tanks one are bad, ask any healer main about how wonderful role actions are *cough* Protect *cough*.

Yeah, that moment in SB when I realized that I have to spend all role actions on stuff that was baseline to the WHM in HW.
LoL.

[Faroth]

Protect also has the added mind boggle of casting it at the start and then swapping it out for something else.

Kinda makes it pointless.

I kind of wish it was a shorter timer but worth casting in combat for WHM. But then, I kinda wish other things had translated to MMOs like Wall, Shell, etc. Little bit of strategy for damage prevention rather than pure healing after damage is done, etc.

[Kazgrel]

Protect also has the added mind boggle of casting it at the start and then swapping it out for something else.

Kinda makes it pointless.

I kind of wish it was a shorter timer but worth casting in combat for WHM. But then, I kinda wish other things had translated to MMOs like Wall, Shell, etc. Little bit of strategy for damage prevention rather than pure healing after damage is done, etc.

Protect is actually pretty nice in pvp. 20% damage reduction, 6 second duration, 40ish second cd (been a few weeks since I last pvped, so memory is fuzzy). It would incur a lot of overlap, though, in pve (PLD's Intervention comes to mind), but honestly, I'd much rather have that as a WHM-only ability instead of clogging up role actions for everyone.

Hilariously enough, WHM has Divine Benison in pvp as well as protect. My fav healer to pvp on by far (although I had gotten fairly familar with SCH there as well).

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Yeah, that moment in SB when I realized that I have to spend all role actions on stuff that was baseline to the WHM in HW.
LoL.

Yup, exactly. That was rather disappointing, to put it mildly. Esuna should be baked in to all healers, and either dump Protect only, or let it work like it does in pvp, where it's WHM only (see my response to Faroth for description).

Heck, I'd go so far to say I'd like Rescue on all healers...especially if they could cut out the awful delay it has on actually pulling people. You have to have a sixth sense for premonition to use it remotely well.

[Granyala]

I kind of wish it was a shorter timer but worth casting in combat for WHM.

I always reapply after rezzing.
Why wouldn't it be worth it? We don't heal full time anyway, so whether I throw a stone or cast a buff makes very little difference.
I do agree that it's idiotic as a role action though. Makes no sense because it's mandatory and every player will bitch if you don't buff.

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Heck, I'd go so far to say I'd like Rescue on all healers...especially if they could cut out the awful delay it has on actually pulling people. You have to have a sixth sense for premonition to use it remotely well.

That delay is the typical .5 - 1s server lag in FF. No way around it.
Coming from WoW, getting information that is out of date it's still damn awkward at times.

[Faroth]

I always reapply after rezzing.
Why wouldn't it be worth it? We don't heal full time anyway, so whether I throw a stone or cast a buff makes very little difference.
I do agree that it's idiotic as a role action though. Makes no sense because it's mandatory and every player will bitch if you don't buff.

In raid content it makes sense and reapplying after a rez is great. I meant more of the dungeon runs where it's most often applied at the start and then you can swap it out and never thinking about it again - that makes it kind of a pointless ability in the role pool.

I think back to the single player RPGs where protect, shell, wall were things you'd cast one by one on everyone between healing at the start of the fight and it wouldn't last the whole fight so you'd reapply them. Wish some of that strategy translated into MMOs.

[Wrecktangle]

I'm ok with Flash and TE being separate as they are, although that begs the question of how often does a PLD find themselves in an OT role spamming TE to do mad dps? I wouldn't shed a tear if they got the treatment you mentioned.

My issue with Flash is that it offers no actual fun (IMO).

It has a dumb animation, even dumber sound effects, awkward animation effect delay which when coupled with the way the game codes threat and updates positioning makes for a pretty unintuitive experience (granted most of us PLDs are used to its quirks by now, but that is no way shape or form a valid point in justifying the skills awfulness).

Then it does no damage, costs MP, and has arguably one of the least visible (cwhatididthere?) debuffs in the games in terms of actual gameplay mechanics. Flash wouldn't even pass for good game design in 2004, let alone 2014.

I think back to the single player RPGs where protect, shell, wall were things you'd cast one by one on everyone between healing at the start of the fight and it wouldn't last the whole fight so you'd reapply them. Wish some of that strategy translated into MMOs.

Here's the flip side. I played a Paladin in vanilla WoW. My job was to make sure everyone had 3 freaking buffs that had to be recast all the time. It was quite literally the antithesis of fun then, let alone comparing it to gaming standards today.

That's not to say its a bad idea, merely that implementation in and of itself is paramount.

How would you implement Protect/Shell or Wall in a meaningful/engaging/fun way within constraints of the current game engine? Something that needs to be recast fairly commonly, but still important and impactful and most importantly fun. I don't think a flat % redux qualifies as fun btw.

[lawow74]

How would you implement Protect/Shell or Wall in a meaningful/engaging/fun way within constraints of the current game engine? Something that needs to be recast fairly commonly, but still important and impactful and most importantly fun. I don't think a flat % redux qualifies as fun btw.

I think of the original Guild Wars and a Monk (aka healer) spell called Reversal of Fortune. It turned the next hit the target took into a heal for that amount. Perhaps something similar for a long CD to blunt an AoE attack from a boss.

[Katchii]

My issue with Flash is that it offers no actual fun (IMO).

It has a dumb animation, even dumber sound effects, awkward animation effect delay which when coupled with the way the game codes threat and updates positioning makes for a pretty unintuitive experience (granted most of us PLDs are used to its quirks by now, but that is no way shape or form a valid point in justifying the skills awfulness).

Then it does no damage, costs MP, and has arguably one of the least visible (cwhatididthere?) debuffs in the games in terms of actual gameplay mechanics. Flash wouldn't even pass for good game design in 2004, let alone 2014.



Here's the flip side. I played a Paladin in vanilla WoW. My job was to make sure everyone had 3 freaking buffs that had to be recast all the time. It was quite literally the antithesis of fun then, let alone comparing it to gaming standards today.

That's not to say its a bad idea, merely that implementation in and of itself is paramount.

How would you implement Protect/Shell or Wall in a meaningful/engaging/fun way within constraints of the current game engine? Something that needs to be recast fairly commonly, but still important and impactful and most importantly fun. I don't think a flat % redux qualifies as fun btw.

They kind of already did with Palisade on BRD and MCH. It's a defensive cooldown that's cast by someone else. I personally don't like it, but that's coming from a DPS viewpoint, if it was a Healer ability I might feel differently but I still don't think I'd enjoy the ability as I'd likely just choose to cast another heal rather than "Wall" since a 20% reduction would rarely (if ever) be more impactful than a heal that simply recovered the health lost. If the game was balanced around a healer ability that needed to be cast for the tank to even survive I wouldn't like that either because it would mean the tank was missing critical survival tools.

[The Casualty]

I dislike a lot of those targeted abilities as there is currently no way to implement a mouseover function without using a macro, and macros in this game - outside of crafting - are pretty aggravating. That is one thing I definitely miss about WoW.

[HAcoreRD]

i died inside

[StrawberryZebra]

That said I PERSONALLY find more abilities better, BUT only if they have ACTUAL value. Not usable on one fight once a year.

The problem over the life of an MMO is that eventually you run out of new skills to add that perform a clearly defined function. I would argue that once you get beyond 15-20 well designed abilities, you're going to start running out abilities that fit. New cooldown skills are one way around this, of course, but even those have a limit.

That being said, I think Jobs play better when they're left in an intentionally incomplete state. Having one or two flaws mean you've got to come up with workaround solutions for those problems when they do come up with the toolbox you have. Healers are a good example to look at here, if you have a healing job that is strongly focused on Single target heals then a boss with AoE damage presents a challenge because of the built in limitations.

Having players come up with creative ways to use their tools keeps the game engaging.

Here's the flip side. I played a Paladin in vanilla WoW. My job was to make sure everyone had 3 freaking buffs that had to be recast all the time. It was quite literally the antithesis of fun then, let alone comparing it to gaming standards today.

That's not to say its a bad idea, merely that implementation in and of itself is paramount.

I think the idea of having character classes devoted almost entirely to buffing their allies is a totally workable idea. With the caveat that they're in single player games where the player has control over the rest of the party too. They allow the group as a whole to excel and perform feats that would be much harder without them. But in a single player game you're able to see and appreciate what the character brings to the table.

It doesn't matter if the class in question is a White Mage, Bard, Transmutation Wizard or Cleric - We all love how much more awesome they make the rest of our team.

Moving it away from single player games however leaves it in a very awkward spot. These types of classes often offer very little player engagement or feedback. You never get to see the results of your actions, since they're counted in other peoples damage stats, and they're often stuck with a playstyle that leaves them as little more than mobile buff dispensers. The worst part is that as great as buffs like +10% Attack Power are, they're simply passive damage. They don't offer up anything noticable or give you that extra power in a package you can really appreciate.

If I were to make such a job work and feel satisfying to play, I would amp their buffing power up to 11. Or maybe even 12. Or 15! Give them short duration Super Buffs that their team can both notice and appreciate. Team Fortress 2 hit the nail on the head here with the Medic. His Ubercharge offers substantial power to a single ally, is extremely obvious to everyone in the area and can be an instant "WE WIN!" button used well. That's a support done right imo.

How would you implement Protect/Shell or Wall in a meaningful/engaging/fun way within constraints of the current game engine? Something that needs to be recast fairly commonly, but still important and impactful and most importantly fun. I don't think a flat % redux qualifies as fun btw.

I would make it a single target buff that fully blocks the next instance of damage you take. Naturally I would give it an appropriate cooldown to match. I realise that allowing you to outright ignore some mechanics would be somewhat broken, but I'd still look to make it an absurdly powerful skill that's exclusive to White Mages.

As nice as flat damage reduction buffs are, you never really get the chance to see just how effective they've been. Having your tank outright ignore the next hit is something that is both noticable, powerful, and extremely satisfying when pulled off well.

[Granyala]

That being said, I think Jobs play better when they're left in an intentionally incomplete state. Having one or two flaws mean you've got to come up with workaround solutions for those problems when they do come up with the toolbox you have. Healers are a good example to look at here, if you have a healing job that is strongly focused on Single target heals then a boss with AoE damage presents a challenge because of the built in limitations.

Having players come up with creative ways to use their tools keeps the game engaging.

Yup and then players start realizing that Boss X is harder for class Y and start benching class Y or pressuring for Y to change to Z because ultimately they want every advantage they can get in order to kill Boss X.

What looks good on paper often falls flat on it's nose in real scenarios when community interaction and expectation are added.

[lawow74]

What looks good on paper often falls flat on it's nose in real scenarios when community interaction and expectation are added.

Cos that's always the worst thing about MMO's: Other players.

[Kazgrel]

Yup and then players start realizing that Boss X is harder for class Y and start benching class Y or pressuring for Y to change to Z because ultimately they want every advantage they can get in order to kill Boss X.

What looks good on paper often falls flat on it's nose in real scenarios when community interaction and expectation are added.

Current example: BLM for ultimate Bahamut. Last I checked, there were all of 2 clears with BLM present, 1 of which was someone who had previously cleared it on another job. Most all BLM mains I've seen have either picked up books and egis, whether it's until 4.2 or for the foreseeable future.

[Kaelwryn]

Current example: BLM for ultimate Bahamut. Last I checked, there were all of 2 clears with BLM present, 1 of which was someone who had previously cleared it on another job. Most all BLM mains I've seen have either picked up books and egis, whether it's until 4.2 or for the foreseeable future.

Up to 6 now, not that that changes anything really but yeah...blm isn't in the best spot for something like ucob.

[The Casualty]

I would be against the idea of giving healers an invuln ability. Each tank already has one, and accordingly exploits them on harder mechanics. If you want a tank/healer team (the 4 of them) to come together and invuln their way through every mechanic - this will be the road leading there.

And then what's the point of all of those hard hitting abilities if you don't have to choose how to best mitigate them - or worse, if you only have to choose if you didn't bring the healer with the ability (but then why would you do that?)

For an example, I looked through one of my team's more recent logs of Neo back in early December. As one of the tanks, and we share the responsibility pretty equally in there, I was cured once - although I will concede that the fight isn't traditional in the sense that it doesn't have outgoing damage in the form of autoattacks, but rather large raid-wide tic damage from Almagest.
The largest percentage of healing from any source, excluding or including overheal (it doesn't matter), was Benediction. Meaning that I holmganged (essentially invulned) a ton of mechanics. During that fight, between myself and the other tank, we effectively ignore 4-5 mechanics (3 Dual Cast Thunder III's from Delta Attack, and 1-2 Double Attacks).

With the current design of how this game is played, giving a healer a tool like that will have them shift even further away from actual healing.

[Kazgrel]

Up to 6 now, not that that changes anything really but yeah...blm isn't in the best spot for something like ucob.

Right, and being that it's been hinted at that there will only be potency adjustments, I'm not so certain BLM will be a factor still, because it's not ability potencies that are the problem. My (selfish) desire would be to see some of the cast times cut down significantly while potency numbers remain intact; that way I could get away with running DH/crit gear which would allow me to have all 3 casters in more-or-less BiS without having to swap a bunch of different things around.

[Wrecktangle]

I think of the original Guild Wars and a Monk (aka healer) spell called Reversal of Fortune. It turned the next hit the target took into a heal for that amount. Perhaps something similar for a long CD to blunt an AoE attack from a boss.

That could work, but with limitations. It can't be full value else it'd be 100% used on tank busters, which would make it FAR too powerful without a commensurate cooldown, which then defeats the point @Faroth was thinking of, which was something cast semi-frequently.

If it's too small, you won't notice it so then we're back to square one. Any other ideas?

They kind of already did with Palisade on BRD and MCH. It's a defensive cooldown that's cast by someone else. I personally don't like it, but that's coming from a DPS viewpoint, if it was a Healer ability I might feel differently but I still don't think I'd enjoy the ability as I'd likely just choose to cast another heal rather than "Wall" since a 20% reduction would rarely (if ever) be more impactful than a heal that simply recovered the health lost. If the game was balanced around a healer ability that needed to be cast for the tank to even survive I wouldn't like that either because it would mean the tank was missing critical survival tools.

All fair points that I agree with. That's one of FF14's core issues IMO. In that the combat system is FAR too rigid, which then forces class design to be super binary as well.

The problem over the life of an MMO is that eventually you run out of new skills to add that perform a clearly defined function. I would argue that once you get beyond 15-20 well designed abilities, you're going to start running out abilities that fit. New cooldown skills are one way around this, of course, but even those have a limit.

For sure.

That being said, I think Jobs play better when they're left in an intentionally incomplete state. Having one or two flaws mean you've got to come up with workaround solutions for those problems when they do come up with the toolbox you have. Healers are a good example to look at here, if you have a healing job that is strongly focused on Single target heals then a boss with AoE damage presents a challenge because of the built in limitations.

Having players come up with creative ways to use their tools keeps the game engaging.

I agree actually. I've commonly stated here that I long for emulating the experience I got when doing high mythic + keys back during Legion launch. It was hands down some of the best MMO gameplay (and I've raided top 20 US, server first kill shit) I've ever experienced.

That experience was trying to solve problems using our existing toolkits. I remember our first time seeing Ymiron use Dark Slash and it just instantly deleted our tank on a +15 key. he was dead. One shot. So we wiped, went back and then said ok, he can only block shadow damage once every minute, but the boss does the attack about every 30s so we used our hunters pet taunt to eat one, used cooldown to survive next, then used my bubble taunt to survive another then cooldown. etc. We had to get creative to get past the challenges in front of us.

I would make it a single target buff that fully blocks the next instance of damage you take. Naturally I would give it an appropriate cooldown to match. I realise that allowing you to outright ignore some mechanics would be somewhat broken, but I'd still look to make it an absurdly powerful skill that's exclusive to White Mages.

As nice as flat damage reduction buffs are, you never really get the chance to see just how effective they've been. Having your tank outright ignore the next hit is something that is both noticable, powerful, and extremely satisfying when pulled off well.

Again, we're still not meeting Faroth's criteria. It can't be too powerful or else it would have too large a cooldown. It needs to be impactful, fun, and pressed fairly frequently. I imagine a 20-30s cooldown personally.

Yup and then players start realizing that Boss X is harder for class Y and start benching class Y or pressuring for Y to change to Z because ultimately they want every advantage they can get in order to kill Boss X.

What looks good on paper often falls flat on it's nose in real scenarios when community interaction and expectation are added.

This is mostly a nature of encounter design. Because of the way damage is tuned it forces these types of binary interactions in class design. I suspect there is a solution to this and keep an eye out for a new thread I am making that covers it a bit.

Current example: BLM for ultimate Bahamut. Last I checked, there were all of 2 clears with BLM present, 1 of which was someone who had previously cleared it on another job. Most all BLM mains I've seen have either picked up books and egis, whether it's until 4.2 or for the foreseeable future.

To be fair, we all knew that BLM's weakness was always intended to be movement. The REAL issue and I'm surprised Yoshi as a BLM main couldn't figure out is that if you want to include a shit ton of movement mechanics and long cast times you need to compromise somewhere.

They should have given BLM's an ability that lets them store say 3 charges that allow insta cast abilities. This way, you'd burn 1 or 2 charges for burst damage, but you'd always want to keep one for mechanics, and this way as long as you spent 1, you're cooldown would always be counting down. If you made actual encounter design relevant where burst damage mattered, you'd simultaneously carve a niche where BLM is stronger than most.

[The Casualty]

Right, and being that it's been hinted at that there will only be potency adjustments, I'm not so certain BLM will be a factor still, because it's not ability potencies that are the problem. My (selfish) desire would be to see some of the cast times cut down significantly while potency numbers remain intact; that way I could get away with running DH/crit gear which would allow me to have all 3 casters in more-or-less BiS without having to swap a bunch of different things around.

Agreed. BLM damage is fine when they don't have to move. For easier content - and maybe a handful of savage fights (usually the first or second floor), this isn't a problem. Unfortunately Final Fantasy is big on keeping all 8 of their players busy with at least moderate movement in the vast majority of harder fights.