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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    So you would be okay with losing the bulk of your player base to the Alliance?
    No, please not. We don't want them either.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    As a horde player, I wish we would never win anything elven related. Elves are cancer of the horde. Seriously.
    This, you guis are gettin' soft.
    Disarm now correctly removes the targets’ arms.

  3. #243
    Bloodelves make up 40% of the total players on Horde side across all servers globally.

    This is the WoW demographic unfortunately. I'll happily stay true to my Troll legacy and continue it further with my Zandalari Zappy Boi in BfA. (fuck Elves)

  4. #244
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    They actually aren't dominant. You've got Anduin, Jaina and some Gilnean-turned-worgen people.

    Khadgar doesn't even count as Alliance, Turalyon is basically a lightforged and more than a simple human at this point and Jaina was last seen 1.5 years ago. The most-present Alliance characters in Legion are night elves, draenei, worgen, high elves and then humans(speaking of Alliance-alligned humans, not humans as the whole race because they can be found in almost any organization on Azeroth).
    Are you joking? Humans are a fucking constant in the Alliance more than any other race. Worgen appeared in Legion after two expansions of doing nothing. Draenei started to have presence in WoD and then Legion but before that they were ghosts. Dwarves and Gnomes...seriously, let's not touch that point. Only Night Elves had a relatively constant presence but when it comes to the main storyline, Humans are the ones who truly matter. Be it in terms of mere numbers (the standard footman is by far the most deployed unit in the Alliance, as the most recent cinematic shown pretty blatantly) and character development (Anduin, Varian and Jaina have always been at the center stage of the Alliance's development, to which we can include Genn too since, despite going werewolf from time to time, he's still quite human and now Turalyon, who's indeed a freaking human much like the Lightforged Draenei are freaking draenei).

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Still better than being the mouthpiece of an undead witch if you ask me.
    How cute to believe Lor'themar would truly need any encouragement to say fuck off at a proposal of joining the Alliance just because it's Alleria carrying it.

    At least, Anduin is somewhat respectful toward Alleria. The same can't be said with Sylvanas.
    Sylvanas herself got quite the same treatment from Lor'themar (before she became Warchief, of course) so they're kinda even on that regard.

    Aside from Rommath who's awesome, you must be joking.
    And taking care of its hairs doesn't count as a personality aspect if you were talking about Lor'Thewho.
    So far Lor'themar is the Blood Elf whose personality is shown and developed the most, so I'm not sure what the fuck are you even talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  5. #245
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoris View Post
    I was speaking in terms of lore.
    We already had situations like that. Blood elfs were stopped from going downhill using fel magic by restoring Sunwell, Worgens were brought back from bestial wrath using alchemy/nelf druidic help. Lore can easily be made to stop Void Elfs going full Old Gods.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2018-01-12 at 12:31 PM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Are you joking? Humans are a fucking constant in the Alliance more than any other race. Worgen appeared in Legion after two expansions of doing nothing. Draenei started to have presence in WoD and then Legion but before that they were ghosts. Dwarves and Gnomes...seriously, let's not touch that point. Only Night Elves had a relatively constant presence but when it comes to the main storyline, Humans are the ones who truly matter. Be it in terms of mere numbers (the standard footman is by far the most deployed unit in the Alliance, as the most recent cinematic shown pretty blatantly) and character development (Anduin, Varian and Jaina have always been at the center stage of the Alliance's development, to which we can include Genn too since, despite going werewolf from time to time, he's still quite human and now Turalyon, who's indeed a freaking human much like the Lightforged Draenei are freaking draenei).
    You named three Alliance humans at the centre, just as many as I have. Varian was naturally at the centre since he lead it since WotLK. Anduin, as his son, automatically gets attention and Jaina is around since Warcraft 3. Nothing is out of the order here.

    Alliance humans have larger numbers lorewise because they die the most too(they've lost more territory than any other race during W3's and WoW's timeline, compared to what they had before) or we going to ignore the bad treatment humans recieved through Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft?

    Most of the Horde races have been established or have recieved an established character only in Warcraft 3 and WoW, whereas humans - just like orcs - have had ample important characters to take off with from the past. Humans and orcs have been at the centre of the Warcraft universe and are the two playable races which are around since the beginning. They've recieved nothing but absolutely horrible treatment from Blizzard.

    Humans aren't favoured by Blizzard's storytelling in any way. They've lost the most cities and kingdoms since Warcraft 3(Lordaeron, Stromgarde, Gilneas), while also getting a lot of their other characters(ie Khadgar), places(ie Dalaran, Light's Hope) and factions(ie Argent Dawn > Argent Crusade) being thrown into a neutral status for the convenience of other races and the Horde.

    Legion has given screentime to every single race so far and on the Alliance side of things, the draenei, night elves and worgen absolutely dominate the screentime. Velen got more screentime and development than ever before, Genn has finally started doing something after sitting idle since Cataclysm and Tyrande/Maiev has/have had major appearances too.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-01-12 at 01:46 PM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    You named three Alliance humans at the centre, just as many as I have. Varian was naturally at the centre since he lead it since WotLK. Anduin, as his son, automatically gets attention and Jaina is around since Warcraft 3. Nothing is out of the order here.

    Alliance humans have larger numbers lorewise because they die the most too(they've lost more territory than any other race during W3's and WoW's timeline, compared to what they had before) or we going to ignore the bad treatment humans recieved through Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft?

    Most of the Horde races have been established or have recieved an established character only in Warcraft 3 and WoW, whereas humans - just like orcs - have had ample important characters to take off with from the past. Humans and orcs have been at the centre of the Warcraft universe and are the two playable races which are around since the beginning. They've recieved nothing but absolutely horrible treatment from Blizzard.

    Humans aren't favoured by Blizzard's storytelling in any way. They've lost the most cities and kingdoms since Warcraft 3(Lordaeron, Stromgarde, Gilneas), while also getting a lot of their other characters(ie Khadgar), places(ie Dalaran, Light's Hope) and factions(ie Argent Dawn > Argent Crusade) being thrown into a neutral status for the convenience of other races and the Horde.

    Legion has given screentime to every single race so far and on the Alliance side of things, the draenei, night elves and worgen absolutely dominate the screentime. Velen got more screentime and development than ever before, Genn has finally started doing something after sitting idle since Cataclysm and Tyrande/Maiev has/have had major appearances too.
    Wait, didn't the blood elves lose their entire kingdom whereas the humans have only lost most of it
    Didn't the night elves lose their entire kingdom which spanned the world? A very beautiful one too, making the fall harder.
    Didn't the trolls lose their entire control and dominance too?
    Didn't the orcs lose nearly their entire world, let alone their kingdoms. And before you say it was their own hand, remember they were manipulated.
    Didn't the Draenei lose 2 worlds - first Argus, then Draenor
    Didn't the gnomes lose their only city/zone?
    Didn't the forsaken (Lordaeron citizens) lose their entire kingdom then cruelly raised as undead?

    Humans have not lost the most, trust me, and as much as they've lost they've also gained the most. Night elves have still not gotten their well back, civilization, immortality, Trolls never came together again from nearly 16000 years ago. Gnomes are still waiting to return to Gnomeragan. Forsaken have just lost Lordaeron, and night elves all their zones. Even Orcs who like humans recovered a lot, have taken far more of a beating than humans, or do you not remember SoO? Forgotten Darkspears lost one of the best leaders the horde has had after Thrall.

    Please, humans can wait in line for the tragedy scale. Blood Elves, Night elves, Draenei and Forsaken have all faced extinction level events and nearly wiped out by them. Humans have not.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Wait, didn't the blood elves lose their entire kingdom whereas the humans have only lost most of it
    Didn't the night elves lose their entire kingdom which spanned the world? A very beautiful one too, making the fall harder.
    Didn't the trolls lose their entire control and dominance too?
    Didn't the orcs lose nearly their entire world, let alone their kingdoms. And before you say it was their own hand, remember they were manipulated.
    Didn't the Draenei lose 2 worlds - first Argus, then Draenor
    Didn't the gnomes lose their only city/zone?
    Didn't the forsaken (Lordaeron citizens) lose their entire kingdom then cruelly raised as undead?

    Humans have not lost the most, trust me, and as much as they've lost they've also gained the most. Night elves have still not gotten their well back, civilization, immortality, Trolls never came together again from nearly 16000 years ago. Gnomes are still waiting to return to Gnomeragan. Forsaken have just lost Lordaeron, and night elves all their zones. Even Orcs who like humans recovered a lot, have taken far more of a beating than humans, or do you not remember SoO? Forgotten Darkspears lost one of the best leaders the horde has had after Thrall.

    Please, humans can wait in line for the tragedy scale. Blood Elves, Night elves, Draenei and Forsaken have all faced extinction level events and nearly wiped out by them. Humans have not.
    The Alliance humans - out of all the Alliance races - have lost the most in terms of numbers, number of kingdoms and cities, in addition to having their most popular characters turned into neutral ones. I am talking about those that are Alliance because we're talking about those races that are affiliated with the playable factions right now. It is obvious the night elves lost the most, followed by the trolls, but that is from a global standpoint and from a standpoint that takes into account periods and timeframes these races experienced without any faction affiliation. What we're talking about are playable races as the other guy argued that the other races are being given no story within the Alliance and that humans get all the spotlight.

    Within the Alliance and throughout the Alliance's history, humans have suffered the most and have lost the most.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-01-12 at 03:32 PM.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Within the Alliance and throughout the Alliance's history, humans have suffered the most and have lost the most.
    No dummy, Pandaren obviously suffered the most.

  10. #250
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post

    Within the Alliance and throughout the Alliance's history, humans have suffered the most and have lost the most.
    Yup, TOTALLY lost more than draenei.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Yup, TOTALLY lost more than draenei.
    Yes, within the Alliance. What have the draenei lost since they've become Alliance/playable? What have they lost as a playable race?

  12. #252
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Yes, within the Alliance. What have the draenei lost since they've become Alliance?
    If you gonna look at this that way, we can say that gnomes lost the most during day of fall of gnomeregan. No other race had such losses during that one day.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    If you gonna look at this that way, we can say that gnomes lost the most during day of fall of gnomeregan. No other race had such losses during that one day.
    They've technically joined the Alliance as a playable race only once they lost their city.

    The reason why I am looking at things from a "since they're Horde/Alliance" point is because I initially talked about who lost the most since joining either faction and who is dumbed down within them the most.

  14. #254
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Yes, within the Alliance. What have the draenei lost since they've become Alliance/playable? What have they lost as a playable race?
    "Well, yeah they've lost more than anyone in the History of the Universe... but what about -lately-, huh?!"

    Them Goalposts are -really- legging it.
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    "Well, yeah they've lost more than anyone in the History of the Universe... but what about -lately-, huh?!"

    Them Goalposts are -really- legging it.
    You're moving goalposts, not me. The initial talk was about which race is being dumbed down within the factions and who has lost more thanks to being Alliance. The point raised was that other races have lost the most because of being Alliance(which is supposedly human-centric), including both territory and tradition.

    It would be a lot better if you actually read the initial stages of each discussion when replying. This way you are just abruptly banging into a discussion without even knowing what is being talked about. After four or five people join in the way you do, it gets completely derailed.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-01-12 at 09:40 PM.

  16. #256
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    You're moving goalposts, not me. The initial talk was about which race is being dumbed down within the factions and who has lost more thanks to being Alliance. The point raised was that other races have lost the most because of being Alliance(which is supposedly human-centric), including both territory and tradition.

    It would be a lot better if you actually read the initial stages of each discussion when replying. This way you are just abruptly banging into a discussion without even knowing what is being talked about. After four or five people join in the way you do, it gets completely derailed.
    I'm not moving goalposts, Magna, 'cause I'm not the one who initially made the statement that "The humans have lost the most!" and when confronted with how much others have lost, moved the goalposts to "Since the Founding of the Alliance!"

    Especially egregious since in the post where you set the statement that the humans lost the most explicitly compared to what they had during and before WC3, which is before the current Alliance formed. " during W3's and WoW's timeline, compared to what they had before" were your words.

    I didn't set the discussion parameters, and I didn't later limit them or expand them. You did both of those things. Hence: Moving Goalposts.
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  17. #257
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Them Goalposts are -really- legging it.
    Well I present you Magnagarde, the Lore section's supreme master of goalposts. It gets tiring to even try after a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan
    Well I present you Magnagarde, the Lore section's supreme master of goalposts. It gets tiring to even try after a while.
    Do yourself a favour then and don't try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    I'm not moving goalposts, Magna, 'cause I'm not the one who initially made the statement that "The humans have lost the most!" and when confronted with how much others have lost, moved the goalposts to "Since the Founding of the Alliance!"

    Especially egregious since in the post where you set the statement that the humans lost the most explicitly compared to what they had during and before WC3, which is before the current Alliance formed. " during W3's and WoW's timeline, compared to what they had before" were your words.

    I didn't set the discussion parameters, and I didn't later limit them or expand them. You did both of those things. Hence: Moving Goalposts.
    Well, here is newsflash for both of you; the night elves could only have started to become humanesque copies of themselves after they've joined the Alliance, not before, which is why talking about any other timeframe other than their Alliance-related one is complete nonsense. If you are going to talk about this, then the only timetable to consider is the one which includes them being Alliance; nothing before that and nothing after that.

    Logic itself limits the discussion to their Alliance-related timeframe, not you, me or anyone else. If you talk about night elves and the way they're turning out to be human copies of their former selves, then this is the only period you can consider. I really hoped this wouldn't require explaining. My first reply was also directed at Zulkhan's post(which was all about the "bad" effects humans have had on night elves in WoW), not yours, which is why any eventual moving of goalposts is inherently tied to the post I quoted.

    Now, within the Alliance, the night elves have had a much better treatment than humans have, who have - in contrast to the night elves - lost more ground than any other Alliance race has as its member. The Alliance night elves have gotten more screentime than most of the Alliance human characters(ie Malfurion in Cataclysm, Malfurion in Legion, Tyrande in Legion), which is why statements such as the Alliance being human-centric are completely untrue.

    By analogy, the Horde is being misinterpreted the same way and has always been misinterpreted about being orc-centric.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-01-13 at 04:30 AM.

  19. #259
    When blood elves went horde Blizzard in an effort to look original by doing as much as possible opposite to the LotR, made it clear by this move that the horde was going to be the centre of development for elves. Everyone should have figured this out. The story was an elf fan wet dream come true, and one of the only successful racial stories ever told in wow itself. Noticeably too were Night elves became irrelevant and every elven development that was good happened to horde elves

    Blizzard have made it very clear, it's not even a debate. It’s sad to see the lame fight alliance fans are putting up that reeks of delusion and fanfic. Essays of it. I’d feel sorry for them if their tears didnt feel so good, esp the crazy ones. But the wow gods have decreed clearly. If you love elves play horde - can’t have both humans and best of elves on same side, too popular. This is why alliance elves such as night elves will always suck and never be like they were in WC3 or even better like their empire days and is why empire night elves I.e. nightborne went horde with the great City and Broken Isles while alliance got token force void elves who are just a handful of disgraced blood elves too reckless even for blood elves but not for alliance and with a shoddy backstory making it quite clear how much they care bout your elves.

    Ofc you could argue it's human they should have made avail on both sides to solve balance issues, yes. You’d be right and in a sense they did, but made Forsaken too ghoulish rather than vampiric/necromantic like Diablo 3 necromancers in the vein of changed Lordaeron survivors/remnants, which would have been a greater degree of cool. That would have worked very well as the Lordaeron loving crowd would be horde. Another thing that could have worked was putting night elves horde instead. But this is how it went, past can't change. So wake up! If you like elves, come to the horde. This is our home. Come here. If you liked old style high elves a lot of blood elves now are written like that and it’s only a matter time before we get a cooler version of humans like vampires or necromancers on horde. You can push. For blizzard to have a more LotR feel here if it makes you feel better.

    Gone are the days Horde was all tribal primitive races! So 80s cartoons like - such doesn’t work in 2- faction system game for a 21st century group of people, their audience don’t appreciate that, which is why original classic horde was revamped to this. Most gamers are tech sophisticated, advanced modern culture boys and will not flock to nor can they relate to primitive culture monster looking folk. They had to have fancy designer model like race something they could relate too. Original horde was too niche and that doesn't work when you want an even sided game player wise

    This is also why you will never see alliance elves rise and humans will always dominate the alliance, you don’t need other races when you have humans...too big. It wouldn’t matter in an RTS but it does in an mmo where you have to choose a side and it.costs $30 to change your faction

    - - - Updated - - -

    The horde is the home for those who love liberalism and diversity that strengthens the alliance is the home for stagnating bigots and fascists with a very hypocritical holier than thou self righteous attitude that stinks of discrimination, segregation and all the worth things in our societies like racism, homophobia etc
    Last edited by Beloren; 2018-01-13 at 06:58 PM.

  20. #260
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    /\ wtf dude, chill

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