[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Elegiac]

Under normal circumstances I would go half way to agreeing with you, however the last election like probably the next if we don't get a second referendum, was overarchingly a single issue election about the most important topic of the day - Brexit. The fact that most serious UK political parties were pro Brexit is something in and of itself. People who held minority fringe pro EU views had plenty of options from the Monster Raving Looney Party, Greens, Lib Dems amongst others where their vote could be heard.

You mean the last election where May's government lost significant ground despite being the 'pro-Brexit' party? Lol.

As for FPTP, we kind of like to have a strong and stable working government here with no weeks/months/years of inbetweenie caretaking nonsense that the so called "superior" EU way encourages. Some would say it is the very principle that underpins democracy. How is the non government doing in Germany btw? Any chance of an effective one forming this year or maybe next? Not like there are any pressing issues in Europe to resolve quickly. At some point will you ask why even bother voting? So glad I live in the UK where my vote counts....

Do you even know what FPTP is, and what it stands in contrast to?

[Mormolyce]

Under normal circumstances I would go half way to agreeing with you, however the last election like probably the next if we don't get a second referendum, was overarchingly a single issue election about the most important topic of the day - Brexit. The fact that most serious UK political parties were pro Brexit is something in and of itself. People who held minority fringe pro EU views had plenty of options from the Monster Raving Looney Party, Greens, Lib Dems amongst others where their vote could be heard.

And in that election, Theresa May intended to expand her majority to give herself a stronger negotiating position but instead lost it altogether.

[Mayhem]

As for FPTP, we kind of like to have a strong and stable working government here with no weeks/months/years of inbetweenie caretaking nonsense that the so called "superior" EU way encourages. Some would say it is the very principle that underpins democracy. How is the non government doing in Germany btw? Any chance of an effective one forming this year or maybe next? Not like there are any pressing issues in Europe to resolve quickly. At some point will you ask why even bother voting? So glad I live in the UK where my vote counts....

Yep, a system where parties who together represent the majority of the electorate have to negotiate to form a government underpins democracy. A system where the majority of the electorate gets ignored, voting in some districts makes fuck all difference and forming new parties is discouraged, is where every vote counts, people are represented and the pinnacle of democracy.

I do love the .... at the end of your post, makes it look like sarcasm.

[Floopa]

honestly if there was a second referendum leave would win with a bigger majority.

this is why... us "rejoining the eu" or cancelling article 50 requires ratification of all eu member states, and i'm pretty damn sure that they would seek to 'punish' or 'penalise' the UK because of our initial referendum... i'm pretty sure they wouldn't welcome us back, open arms, with our same 'special status' that we enjoyed while a member of the eu.

to that end, it is very unlikely people would vote in favour of us rejoining with ... additional circumstances.

very smart move by farage tbh, force a second referendum to force the eu's hand... are they indeed "bullies" and "punishing countries who show individuality" or was that another "leave lie".

[caervek]

honestly if there was a second referendum leave would win with a bigger majority.

I very much doubt that, public opinion was never behind Brexit, the win was fluked by the Remain campaign being such an utter failure that all it achieved was actually convincing many voters that a remain victory was such a done deal/obvious choice that there was no need to bother voting. If there was a new vote not only would the previous remain majority actually bother to fully vote but many of the people who voted leave based on lies have since realised they were lies.

On the polls that sprung up after Farage's comments the biggest changes (compared to the pre-referendum ones on the same sites) are from people who didn't vote last time but would vote remain now, and people who voted leave but have changed their mind.

[Kiri]

Under normal circumstances I would go half way to agreeing with you, however the last election like probably the next if we don't get a second referendum, was overarchingly a single issue election about the most important topic of the day - Brexit. The fact that most serious UK political parties were pro Brexit is something in and of itself. People who held minority fringe pro EU views had plenty of options from the Monster Raving Looney Party, Greens, Lib Dems amongst others where their vote could be heard.

As for FPTP, we kind of like to have a strong and stable working government here with no weeks/months/years of inbetweenie caretaking nonsense that the so called "superior" EU way encourages. Some would say it is the very principle that underpins democracy. How is the non government doing in Germany btw? Any chance of an effective one forming this year or maybe next? Not like there are any pressing issues in Europe to resolve quickly. At some point will you ask why even bother voting? So glad I live in the UK where my vote counts....

Eh, it was not really a single issue election. Quite to the contrary, really. Any party going with a 'no Brexit' stance would have had to face the 'ignore the will of the people' argument, which is pretty bad in a snap election. People who held pro EU views had the option of either throwing their vote away or vote for a party that otherwise represents their interests. General Elections are never single issue elections.

The German government is doing fine so far. A new one will form in time, don't worry. It does take longer this time, but that is mostly due to a new party having entered and throwing things into disarray. These kinds of things usually go much smoother, but that is one of the downsides that we accept in favor of not ignoring the votes of lots of people. How many were ignored in 2015 again? 4 million at least, I think. And that is before going into the dis-proportionality that a party with less votes got 45 times as many seats as the one with a higher one in that election. Your vote only counted because you happened to vote for a party that was already winning.

honestly if there was a second referendum leave would win with a bigger majority.

this is why... us "rejoining the eu" or cancelling article 50 requires ratification of all eu member states, and i'm pretty damn sure that they would seek to 'punish' or 'penalise' the UK because of our initial referendum... i'm pretty sure they wouldn't welcome us back, open arms, with our same 'special status' that we enjoyed while a member of the eu.

to that end, it is very unlikely people would vote in favour of us rejoining with ... additional circumstances.

very smart move by farage tbh, force a second referendum to force the eu's hand... are they indeed "bullies" and "punishing countries who show individuality" or was that another "leave lie".

I don't think the UK would be welcomed back with open arms just like that. Not because of any disdain or anything, at least I do not think so. But having another referendum that then cancels Brexit would make the UK less trustworthy and reliable. I mean, the next time the EU convenes on a decision that is unpopular in the UK, will there be another referendum? Best out of three? It's pointless. The UK would not be chosen to house more institutions and possibly still lose some it does today. And that is not 'punishing individuality', it is about reliability. On a personal level, I would like for the UK to stay since most of the people there seem to be nice people and I believe that we can be stronger together, but I already buried my former plans to look for work there (London sounded pretty neat for Econ/Business), due to how much uncertainty there is now.
Sure, it sucks for the almost 50% of UK voters that had sought to stay in the EU, but triggering an article like that is a consequential decision. A second referendum would not force the EU's hand in any way, since the situation would not really change at all. The article i already triggered. That is already a clearer signal of intent than a second referendum could ever be.

[Deleted]

I didn't realize the GFA was about the border between Germany and NI.

Dude, stop talking about the EU invasion!

[Deleted]

Anyone who believes that Leave would win a second referendum is utterly insane.

I've heard plenty of people who previously voted Leave say that they wish they voted Remain, i've heard no Remain voters say they wish they'd voted Leave.

You'll also notice, that the people currently calling for a second referendum are the leaders of the Leave campaigns, because even they realise they'll lose out from leaving the EU, they need that bogeyman to keep themselves relevant, if you take that away they've got nothing.

Sorry Leave retards, but you're messiah Farage doesn't want to Leave the EU, because without the EU, he's nothing.

[Deleted]

I mean from what I have gathered in the past few years, British politicians have been scapegoating the EU for everything bad that has happened for at least the past decade. What they are going to do with no scapegoat?

Oh i'm sure they'd still keep blaming the EU for everything for a good decade or so after we left.

[Edge-]

honestly if there was a second referendum leave would win with a bigger majority.

I have some bad news for you, Floopa - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8154946.html

[alexw]

I have some bad news for you, Floopa - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8154946.html

Not the least bit surprised. Its like Trump. Sell the voters a bag of shit thinly disguised as something else. Then when they realize its just a bag of shit after all, half of the shit voters are too embarrassed or stubborn to change their position, or have managed to convince themselves they actually like shit. While the rest quietly back away from the bag of shit, and pretend they never were enthused by a bag of shit in the first place.

[Tinch]

Anyone who believes that Leave would win a second referendum is utterly insane.

I've heard plenty of people who previously voted Leave say that they wish they voted Remain, i've heard no Remain voters say they wish they'd voted Leave.

You'll also notice, that the people currently calling for a second referendum are the leaders of the Leave campaigns, because even they realise they'll lose out from leaving the EU, they need that bogeyman to keep themselves relevant, if you take that away they've got nothing.

Sorry Leave retards, but you're messiah Farage doesn't want to Leave the EU, because without the EU, he's nothing.

Just like people were insane for thinking Leave would win the first time round right? Careful you might end up with egg on your face again.

The polling suggests that Remain may have a slight lead currently, not because people regret voting leave, but because the number of people who didn't vote in the referendum but would vote remain this time round has increased.

I wish people would stop putting so much weight behind Nigel Farage as though he speaks for all leave voters. I'm a leave voter and I despise the bloke.

Funnily enough I also agree with the Lib Dems that there should be a second referendum once we know the terms of the deal. People should be given the opportunity to make a final decision once the destination is clear.

Guess I don't fit into the pigeonhole that some remainers like to try and lump all leavers in together.

[Deleted]

Guess I don't fit into the pigeonhole that some remainers like to try and lump all leavers in together.

I think the pigeonhole of morons who've shot themselves in the foot and spent the last year blaming the EU for shooting them in the foot fits most Leavers perfectly.

[Shadowmelded]

Don't underestimate the shy-tory effect.

[Floopa]

I have some bad news for you, Floopa - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8154946.html

Reminder that Remain led all polls leading up to original referendum.

[Edge-]

Reminder that Remain led all polls leading up to original referendum.

So why have you been frequently citing polls favorable to Brexit, then? If polls are unreliable, then they're reliably unreliable and you shouldn't be treating them as valid sources to back up your arguments.

You can't have it both ways.

[Deleted]

Spoke to one EU diplomat this morning about prospect of second #Brexit referendum.

His pithy response?

"Do what the F*** you want but stop dicking around. We're moving forward and would appreciate some clarity on the matter"

My feelings exactly.

[Kiri]

So why have you been frequently citing polls favorable to Brexit, then? If polls are unreliable, then they're reliably unreliable and you shouldn't be treating them as valid sources to back up your arguments.

You can't have it both ways.

That's the Brexit motto though.
But yeah, this is just Trump-style poll reading. Only the favorable ones are true, obviously.

[Kallisto]

My feelings exactly.

Found a reply to that tweet which basically tells us what the brexiteers want.

"It's simple. We want to leave the EU but we want all the advantages of being a member but we don't want to pay anything into EU budgets and we don't want to obey any EU rules. We are British and we deserve it. Why does johnny foreigner find this so hard to understand?"

Essentially we want out of the EU, but we want EVERYTHING given to us from the EU. The Customs union, the trade, for our citizens to live and move freely in the EU but not the other way around. For a Soft/hard border in Ireland. Basically impossibility.

[Mayhem]

Found a reply to that tweet which basically tells us what the brexiteers want.

"It's simple. We want to leave the EU but we want all the advantages of being a member but we don't want to pay anything into EU budgets and we don't want to obey any EU rules. We are British and we deserve it. Why does johnny foreigner find this so hard to understand?"

Essentially we want out of the EU, but we want EVERYTHING given to us from the EU. The Customs union, the trade, for our citizens to live and move freely in the EU but not the other way around. For a Soft/hard border in Ireland. Basically impossibility.