Demons without Sargeras - Still a massive threat

[Arrashi]

They lost the engagement, in other words - trying to aggregate their defeats piecemeal as if they were multiplicative is disingenuous and gives an inaccurate impression. They sneaked a secret agent in under the nose of the Alliance (Detheroc) to plant false information, leading up to a disastrous first engagement where the Horde and Alliance were routed and lost their supreme commanders (Vol'jin and Varian) to boot. While doing this they also lead successful strategic strikes against multiple locales such as the Peak of Serenity, forcing the defenders back again. This led to the formation of the Order Halls and the start of successive victories against relatively minor Legion functionaries - culminating in the Legionfall alliance which started to score more major victories leading up to the Argus campaign.

The Legion started strong and actually scored far more decisive victories than any one threat in memory - the Scourge was really only able to kill Dranosh Saurfang, all in all, and WoD cost us Maraad. The Legion bagged themselves two faction leaders and a good deal of collateral damage. All in all, they acquitted themselves pretty well considering they didn't really have a chance of victory from an external standpoint.

The diffrence is that scourge didn't have, you know spaceships. Going against guys with axes. And infinite numbers. And scourge wasn't 1/1000 as pretensional.

And all you listed, doesn't really make them look dangerous, it doesn't even reach bare minimum. The fact that most people escapes broken shore, makes that trap pretty underwhelming. I mean, legion has power ranger villains had, they do something midly annoying at start, and then they die. Without putting much of fight.

[Aucald]

The diffrence is that scourge didn't have, you know spaceships. Going against guys with axes. And infinite numbers. And scourge wasn't 1/1000 as pretensional.

And all you listed, doesn't really make them look dangerous, it doesn't even reach bare minimum. The fact that most people escapes broken shore, makes that trap pretty underwhelming. I mean, legion has power ranger villains had, they do something midly annoying at start, and then they die. Without putting much of fight.

The Scourge actually did kind of have spaceships in the form of their flying Necropoli - obviously they didn't travel through the Nether but they could accomplish much of what the Legion vessels could what with the Scourge being local insofar as Azeroth is concerned. They also had a pretty extreme numerical advantage alongside the ability to gain troops as their enemies suffered losses in the form of raising their enemies' dead.

I'm not sure how you reckon that it doesn't make them seem dangerous, either - depending on how you're keeping score they've got the highest kill tallies of any other force to face Azeroth's defenders whether you count that in terms of major NPC's killed or total enemy mooks killed or both at the same time. Most people, especially in events concerning the PC, are victorious and/or escape their predicaments as well so the Legion are from alone in that particular set of contrivances.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

They won't be quite as organised, nor as interested in Azeroth. There's a whole Great Dark Beyond to cause chaos in.

[Arrashi]

The Scourge actually did kind of have spaceships in the form of their flying Necropoli - obviously they didn't travel through the Nether but they could accomplish much of what the Legion vessels could what with the Scourge being local insofar as Azeroth is concerned. They also had a pretty extreme numerical advantage alongside the ability to gain troops as their enemies suffered losses in the form of raising their enemies' dead.

I'm not sure how you reckon that it doesn't make them seem dangerous, either - depending on how you're keeping score they've got the highest kill tallies of any other force to face Azeroth's defenders whether you count that in terms of major NPC's killed or total enemy mooks killed or both at the same time. Most people, especially in events concerning the PC, are victorious and/or escape their predicaments as well so the Legion are from alone in that particular set of contrivances.

Because for what force they are supposed to be, they are barely noticeable ? Their all out attack on broken isles had barely 3 areas, with azshuna not doing anything, suramar failing to achieve anything and broken shore offering pretty little in way of resistance ? Because all we ever see them do is being defeated ? Because all legion characters say the same shittalk, only to follow it with "how could i lose ?" or generic "you victory means nothing" ?
Because they are so hilariously bad, they ended up being more like a parody of fantasy villains than anything else ?
Because blizzard gave them every adventage imaginable and they still menaged to fuck up, in a spectacular way ?

[Aucald]

Because for what force they are supposed to be, they are barely noticeable ? Their all out attack on broken isles had barely 3 areas, with azshuna not doing anything, suramar failing to achieve anything and broken shore offering pretty little in way of resistance ? Because all we ever see them do is being defeated ? Because all legion characters say the same shittalk, only to follow it with "how could i lose ?" or generic "you victory means nothing" ?
Because they are so hilariously bad, they ended up being more like a parody of fantasy villains than anything else ?
Because blizzard gave them every adventage imaginable and they still menaged to fuck up, in a spectacular way ?

They take and hold Farondale in Azsuna, and turn a few powerful Demon Hunters to their cause. In Suramar they effectively co-opted the largest and most powerful civilization in the Broken Isles, subverting the majority of them into their lackeys. The Broken Shore is where they broke the forces of the Horde and Alliance and pushed them back to their holdings with the tails tucked firmly between their legs until the rise of the Order Halls and the Legionfall concordance.

You seem to have confused defeat with patheticness, as if our defeat over them somehow relegates them into a pathetic joke made in bad taste. The Legion hurt us - and even in their defeat of them they've left Azeroth wounded and on the verge of death, hemorrhaging its vital essence in a wound not seen since the Sundering (which they also had in hand in causing). Sargeras and the Legion have actually managed a feat not yet seen in WoW's incarnation of Azeroth - he hurt the world itself, and left a scarred testament of the cost of victory you can see three zones away. Yes, at the end of the day we won and broke Sargeras' power and sealed him away (with a goodly amount of help from a pantheon of demigods in our back pocket) but we don't come away from the victory laughing about how easy the Legion fell over. Not when Gorribal is still lodged in Silithus like a tombstone and Magni is telling us how the world-soul is in agony as it languishes at death's door. That doesn't seem like the ultimate conclusion "a parody of fantasy villains" leaves you with.

[Farrarie]

A minority of people read the story/lore that is not tied to actual game itself and lets face it even then most people skip reading the quest text so they only SEE what is happening you can not have such a large disconnect between the game and the lore outside of the game to the point that it is factually impossible to relate the two. And as I see it when it comes to WoW the novels are there to complement the game not the other way around the core ideas are brought up and and shown ingame then expanded on in the novels but they do such a shit up job giving us an ability to correlate the two.

As for Argus just being a patch much could have been shown in form of cinematics instead of actual ingame instances sure it might have come of as cheap not being able to see or feel like you were a part in what happened on Argus as it´s shown to rather than you being there ingame but it would have been a hell of a lot better than what we got which was NOTHING.

It doesent matter who we fought since the the end of WOTLK it feels just like the moment we show up everything falls over like a sack of potatoes none of this is helped by the fact that our ingame characters are super powerful champions/heroes now close to or at the lvl of the actual main lore characters we see considering that depending on the class you play you actually end up replacing said lore characters in their leadership roles.

For ME it boils down to the novels actually over complicating what is happening in the game which is what I have been mentioning up until this point like I can understand they can use novels to show us places they dont have the time or money to show us ingame or events happening between xpacks but the fact that something can be so drastically different that is happening to you ingame and what happens in stuff like the novels to such an ludicrous lvl boggles the mind.

Agreed. I cant see it said better than what you said. Still what angered me the most, is the last raid very small building way smaller compare to icecrown and black temple. and the invasion point too.
Still you said the novel you cant related, but in the novel said how the buildings looked specialy KJ palace.

Some Dev said the legion is the biggest threat after the void-lords, If not bigger if the void didn't get a void titan.
Still in game they made them look weaker and less a threat than even the scourge.
the scourge did way more damage than the army who was meant to conquer many planet AT THE SAME TIME!
Even their planet was easily taken over by one ship and a few heroes even if they have the artifacts its absurd.

Sorry but they really misused Argus the main planet of the burning legion.

[MikeBogina]

Sargeras has conditioned the demons for 1000's of years to follow the biggest strongest baddie or face the consequences. Without that big baddie, they'll run rampant, less effective than before, but when a big baddie shows up, say an Old God or a Void Titan... they'll fall in line. Either out of fear of their new master or feeding off the tasty void powers like they did before.

Remember that MikeBogina called it, that the Demons will make up the majority of the Voids army(with Archimonde as one of their leaders)

[Arrashi]

They take and hold Farondale in Azsuna, and turn a few powerful Demon Hunters to their cause. In Suramar they effectively co-opted the largest and most powerful civilization in the Broken Isles, subverting the majority of them into their lackeys. The Broken Shore is where they broke the forces of the Horde and Alliance and pushed them back to their holdings with the tails tucked firmly between their legs until the rise of the Order Halls and the Legionfall concordance.

You seem to have confused defeat with patheticness, as if our defeat over them somehow relegates them into a pathetic joke made in bad taste. The Legion hurt us - and even in their defeat of them they've left Azeroth wounded and on the verge of death, hemorrhaging its vital essence in a wound not seen since the Sundering (which they also had in hand in causing). Sargeras and the Legion have actually managed a feat not yet seen in WoW's incarnation of Azeroth - he hurt the world itself, and left a scarred testament of the cost of victory you can see three zones away. Yes, at the end of the day we won and broke Sargeras' power and sealed him away (with a goodly amount of help from a pantheon of demigods in our back pocket) but we don't come away from the victory laughing about how easy the Legion fell over. Not when Gorribal is still lodged in Silithus like a tombstone and Magni is telling us how the world-soul is in agony as it languishes at death's door. That doesn't seem like the ultimate conclusion "a parody of fantasy villains" leaves you with.

Hmm, hurt world itself....that sounds familiar. Wasn't there expansion like that ? Something with dragon or something ?

Defeat is pretty pathetic if you outnumber, out-tech, and have every other possible adventage over your enemy. And all victories you list would be impressive, if it was kobold uprising that obtained them. The fact that in BFA we destroyed 2 major cities in intro, while legion haven't menaged to come even remotely close to it, makes it even funnier.

You know, the whole gorribal thing would probably make any impression on me, if it wasn't world ending threat of week day. We gonna recover really easily (in fact we already deal with it in 7.3.5).

- - - Updated - - -

Sargeras has conditioned the demons for 1000's of years to follow the biggest strongest baddie or face the consequences. Without that big baddie, they'll run rampant, less effective than before, but when a big baddie shows up, say an Old God or a Void Titan... they'll fall in line. Either out of fear of their new master or feeding off the tasty void powers like they did before.

Remember that MikeBogina called it, that the Demons will make up the majority of the Voids army(with Archimonde as one of their leaders)

"Hey guys its us again ! Are you hyped to effortlessly defeat us once again ?"

[Devilyaki]

Seeing how they are demons they’ll most fight between themselves for awhile till a dominant new big bad comes to be. With differing factions emerging it could possibly lead to some joining the horde or alliance even, never know.

[Dagoth Ur]

Problem with Legion's Burning Legion is that they don't feel nearly as threatening and impactful as how they were in Reign of Chaos. In War3 they actually made territorial advances and used their brains, while in Legion ever since Broken shore and .0 all we see them doing is losing miserably and repeat same death quotes over and over again.

Previously their invasions were portrayed as this big nearly cataclysmic event that one time completely destroyed the greatest, most advanced civilization on Azeroth, while other time it required sacrificing world tree and insane amount of luck to defeat them. We've come from Archimonde being so poweful Horde, Alliance and nelves could only hope to barely slow him down, to us invading their home planet and beating the crap out of them without any major setbacks.

I blame this on that age old excuse of players not being able to actually lose in MMO taken to extreme mixed with lack of "show don't tell" approach by Blizz. What's also arguably problem is that you can't properly show Legion's invasion without some kind of world revamp , which would probably take a lot of work in addition to everything expansion has brought.

I always imagined full scale Legion invasion being something akin to when Reapers invade in ME3. In Legion they just didn't manage to (or didn't bother to) capture that same end of the world feeling they did in War3 and WotA. It all felt like some Avenger movie where all focus is on how heroically heroic us heroes are. Hell, even Oblivion managed to show demonic invasion better than Legion lol.

[Aucald]

Hmm, hurt world itself....that sounds familiar. Wasn't there expansion like that ? Something with dragon or something ?

Deathwing managed a couple of lacerations to the surface of the world, Sargeras gifted it with the mortal stab of an ice-pick. There's a quite a difference between those two.

Defeat is pretty pathetic if you outnumber, out-tech, and have every other possible adventage over your enemy. And all victories you list would be impressive, if it was kobold uprising that obtained them. The fact that in BFA we destroyed 2 major cities in intro, while legion haven't menaged to come even remotely close to it, makes it even funnier.

The Legion couldn't win - simple as that. If they did, the game that is WoW would be over. Fiction is full of superior enemy forces being defeated by scrappy underdogs working together or in tandem, winning engagements by guile or luck or quality vs. quantity (which is really the standout power of the defenders of Azeroth). That Azerothians are more skilled at warfare on their own turf should come as no surprise, either; we're obviously a better check against ourselves than any external force would prove to be. And still, it isn't as if either faction is going to fundamentally *win* in BfA at the end of the day.

You know, the whole gorribal thing would probably make any impression on me, if it wasn't world ending threat of week day. We gonna recover really easily (in fact we already deal with it in 7.3.5).

We solve an immediate problem of Gorribal's power leeching out and further poisoning the land in 7.3.5, we don't fix the damage to the world-soul or the fact that its life-blood is being vented out. The latter being a primary plot point of BfA itself, actually. 7.3.5 is the equivalent of removing the object stabbed into the world, BfA seems to be process by which we give Azeroth a much-needed blood infusion (e.g. collecting Azerite and the Heart of Azeroth system) and probably work to suture and cauterize the wound itself.

[Saverem]

No, im just pointing out all their "lore" failures. Unless you gonna tell me their victory streak is something intimidating.

Pretty sure they conquered like half the galaxy/universe or some shit like that. Lorewise, they were THE biggest threat to entire universe until a recent book that came out changed it all by turning Void Lords into the new bigger baddie.

But for like 95% of the time that the Warcraft universe has been in existence (since 90s), they were the most powerful entity in the universe in Warcraft lore.


As for their victories, they've had plenty in Azeroth too. For instance, the beginning of Legion with battle of broken shore, they had a major victory that left the broken shore completely conquered by them, both faction leaders dead, and many heroes (Like Tirion among many other nameless ones) dead. THE Tirion Fordring that broke The Lich King's Frostmorne and defeated him died like a little bitch to one of their Pitlords at the very beginning of the invasion.

[TheVaryag]

So yeah, we infiltrated their home world and imprisoned their leader.

The same thing happened with the Scourge, with Scourge armies still being numerous enough to sweep Accross Azeroth.

That said, Illidan did not do a Bolvar and did not become leader of all demons, so I assume they would still continue to be a threat to us, after all the Titans were not able to completely rid the galaxy of them, how could we?

By their accounts, they still control most of the galaxy, having burned or infested countless worlds.

Are we to expect more legion invasions, or do you think they are gone for good?

I mean there's nothing stopping the demons from attacking what's left of the galaxy's mortal enemies or souls, which Is mostly Azeroth unless they pull a "Hey there's a bunch of planets hidden behind a mist" or something. Which I wouldn't mind really as long as new planets we're about to explore are Interesting.

But yeah I agree, they can just come back and start destroying us, I don't think they're gone and they might try to do like.. mini Invasions, you know. I imagine after Sargeras died they will band together, have Demon Lords sprout up and take command of certain sections/parts of the Old Legion and reform It as their own, sort of like Illidan did in Outland with pockets of demonic groups on each planet, I'd love that to be true especially If we'll be visiting other planets (Which I hope we do after BfA there's nowhere else to go after that)

I'm glad Illi didnt pull a Bolvar btw, that'd be the lamest attempt In Legion to give us "Noooostalgia" hurr durr

But anyway, they do control most of the galaxy, but I'd love to overtime hear about how worlds are rising up, survivors (There are always some, as Argus Is a good example of, being the very heart of the Legion with dudes hiding around It casually) taking up arms to drive off the demons and start restoring their species and planets.

[Arrashi]

Deathwing managed a couple of lacerations to the surface of the world, Sargeras gifted it with the mortal stab of an ice-pick. There's a quite a difference between those two.

Quite frankly there isn't much diffrence. DW caused cataclysm that was reflected in almost every zone. Sargy....reduced silithus population from 10 to 2, and put a must see tourist attraction there. Other than that it seems to have no real effect. And yeah, azeroth is "dying" but its not like it will have any consequences, and she will get better anyway.

The Legion couldn't win - simple as that. If they did, the game that is WoW would be over. Fiction is full of superior enemy forces being defeated by scrappy underdogs working together or in tandem, winning engagements by guile or luck or quality vs. quantity (which is really the standout power of the defenders of Azeroth). That Azerothians are more skilled at warfare on their own turf should come as no surprise, either; we're obviously a better check against ourselves than any external force would prove to be. And still, it isn't as if either faction is going to fundamentally *win* in BfA at the end of the day.

But it could be better written. It could win battles, even losing the war. But they always lose. They can't win anything even once. They can't have single competent character that does something well, even once. Everything ends for the best.

"Show don't tell" is a principle of good storytelling for a reason. Legion could destoy 345362436464365623 worlds. And it would still not make up for their hilarious failures.

And just because other (often crappy) fantasy settings do that, doesn't make what blizz writes any better.

We solve an immediate problem of Gorribal's power leeching out and further poisoning the land in 7.3.5, we don't fix the damage to the world-soul or the fact that its life-blood is being vented out. The latter being a primary plot point of BfA itself, actually. 7.3.5 is the equivalent of removing the object stabbed into the world, BfA seems to be process by which we give Azeroth a much-needed blood infusion (e.g. collecting Azerite and the Heart of Azeroth system) and probably work to suture and cauterize the wound itself.

Yup, and once again, we will solve the problem and everything will work for the best. Being nuisance, doesn't make you an impressive villain.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty sure they conquered like half the galaxy/universe or some shit like that. Lorewise, they were THE biggest threat to entire universe until a recent book that came out changed it all by turning Void Lords into the new bigger baddie.

But for like 95% of the time that the Warcraft universe has been in existence (since 90s), they were the most powerful entity in the universe in Warcraft lore.


As for their victories, they've had plenty in Azeroth too. For instance, the beginning of Legion with battle of broken shore, they had a major victory that left the broken shore completely conquered by them, both faction leaders dead, and many heroes (Like Tirion among many other nameless ones) dead. THE Tirion Fordring that broke The Lich King's Frostmorne and defeated him died like a little bitch to one of their Pitlords at the very beginning of the invasion.

Yeah, and from what we saw, we can assume most of those "conquests" were uninhabited worlds. Their only big victory was against aldachi, who for all we know, could have total population of 100.

[Saverem]

Yeah, and from what we saw, we can assume most of those "conquests" were uninhabited worlds. Their only big victory was against aldachi, who for all we know, could have total population of 100.

I'd say conquering Argus and getting a Titan, 2 powerful Lieutenants (KJ and Archi), and a bunch of powerful Eredar was probably the biggest conquest.

[Arrashi]

I'd say conquering Argus and getting a Titan, 2 powerful Lieutenants (KJ and Archi), and a bunch of powerful Eredar was probably the biggest conquest.

It wasn't a conquest, it was bribery.

[Magistrate]

Yeah, and given what we saw in invasion points the biggest resistance they encounter in those worlds are squirrels.

I think the invasion points were more excuses to mix in different scenery with Argus content than the literal distillation of entire worlds in one 20x20 yard area.

IE, a gameplay thing more than a storytelling thing.

[Dagoth Ur]

I think the invasion points were more excuses to mix in different scenery with Argus content than the literal distillation of entire worlds in one 20x20 yard area.

IE, a gameplay thing more than a storytelling thing.

It would maybe be better if they made invasion points places on Azeroth. For example instanced parts of Ironforge or Orgrimmar etc. Invasion points made Legion look like even bigger dofuses who invade other worlds when they're already struggling with Azeroth and defending Argus.

[Arrashi]

It would maybe be better if they made invasion points places on Azeroth. For example instanced parts of Ironforge or Orgrimmar etc. Invasion points made Legion look like even bigger dofuses who invade other worlds when they're already struggling with Azeroth and defending Argus.

Man, this lifeless ice-world won't invade itself.

[Verdugo]

Man, this lifeless ice-world won't invade itself.

They were dangerously close to running out of ice for their drinks. The invasion was vital.