As if you need 2 BiS leggies, 75 traits, 4 sets and BiS trinkets to do well in non-Mythic raids. I bring 2 alts who have none of these things in Heroic and perform fine. Yeah, I'm not getting orange parses, but I don't care about these. And my tank can handle anything the instance throws at him in mostly ToS gear. The situation was different up until mid Nighthold, sure, but from then on Legion isn't anymore alt unfriendly than any other xpack save WoD, which was alt friendly because there was jack shit to do in the first place. Vanilla is infinitely worse.
And you grinded like a total madman if you leveled a character in vanilla 1-60 in one week, not to mention gearing took ages unless you were at the tail end of vanilla or got carried. Protip; the vast majority of people did not have a guild ready to carry them through raids and funnel what little gear drops to their shitty alts.
The torture you're pointing at most likely means the incredibly time consuming grind, which was fun but at the same time way too time consuming
Ok, since you're simply not getting it. Let me spell it out for you like I would for a child. The way someone FEELS about something can be different than the way you FEEL about it. If someone says they FEEL the game is more immersive with Vanilla mechanics, thats their opinion. If you say you don't FEEL the same, then that's your opinion.
Neither one is fact. And you dont have to feel attacked because someone doesnt share your opinion. Confusing your opinion for fact shows you have the brain development of a child. Lets hope you're a late bloomer.... and under 25, or else you're doomed to a life of stupidity.
compared to todays game classic was indeed torture.
This is what you aren't getting. It was never about how people felt about immersion, but how they justify said immersion. The argument for a certain mechanic was ultimately rooted in realism. Saying it was more immersive back then is logically flawed because objectively neither the old nor the new mechanic is realistic. Opinion doesn't matter in this context because the argument deals with facts.
If you are going to jump into an argument it's a good idea to know what it's about.
I can't recall the name of that MMORPG, but they handled arrows quite well - you had to use an ability like "craft arrows", "craft poisoned arrows", etc, and your quiver fills with 10 arrows (your quiver only fits 10 arrows, but you could expand it with items or talents abit) of this type allowing you to use ranged abilities, when you are out of them or they are not effective or you need special arrows for special abilities - you have to craft more of them or you have to use your melee abilities.
It was pain in the ass to use but it felt very immersive
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
It was grindy and it is grindy now. The main difference is that we are grinding for different things now. In classic you grinded for power that would be useful in the less forgiving world/encounters. Now you grind for cosmetic mounts and shit. If you have a collectors obsessive compulsive disorder this type of farming suits you, if you don't you want vanilla back.
"Why do people act like Classic WOW was torture?"
To answer the question directly: If they act like that, then they were probably strongly against Bliz releasing Classic WoW. That is, it is a case of very sour grapes.
The truth is that Vanilla WoW was great fun.
It have nothing to do with realism and i have no clue what you are talking about, but WoW ammo system was bullshit, because the cycle of "shoot, run out of ammo, replenish" didn't existed because... you could stockpile literally thousands of unites of ammo and. It was there for no purpose. If the design of hunter in wow was built around having to run out of ammo - then blizzard simply did a poor job, because there are dozens of way of implementing that and they chose poorly and you never actually run out of ammo unless you were ignorant to how things work (aka, first 10 levels or so when your first 200 arrows run out and you say "oh shit i have to BUY them?!". For fucks sake, they gave rogues "poison brewing" profession but didn't give "survival" profession with an ability to make arrows, traps, unique food pills and special food for your pet for hunters, which would be nice solution.
But if the design was to never run out of ammo this ammo system actually made some sense, especially considering that quivers exist (and you are have incentive to use it since they boost your damage) and you are supposed to fill your quiver without leaving any empty spot (sometimes ever taking 1-2 slots from your backpack just in case). You had to abandon, like, 10 bag slots for ammo (at least at lower levels) and instead of them simply lying around in your wool sack you have quiver or ammo pouch to compensate for lower bag space with some damage. And considering their later move to remove ammo completely - it's kinda obvious that they never intended for hunters to run out of ammo, so stockpiling (read: buying shit from a fucking vendor) ammo was intended "mechanic" (i seriously can't make myself to type this in seriously, buying shit from vendor is not a game mechanic). And with addons that sell all your gray shit as you rightclick on an NPC it would be very easy to make an addon that automatically fills you quiver with arrows by right clicking on a proper vendor, which kills all purpose of this "mechanic" even existing.
So yeah, it was neither realistic (which is not a case for almost anything in the game) or immersive (that's personal thing, you choose to feel immersed, if having an option to stockpile thousands of arrows in your bags breaks your immersion or intensifies it - it's all in your head) or a "mechanic" (since there is little to no interaction with it, just like having a mining pick in your bags to be able to mine - it's not a mechanic, it's just a bare requirement that taxes your bag space and nothing else)
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
Immersion is about having rules and limitations. There are drawbacks you live with to gain the benefits. You're right in that its definitely not a perfect system, but its better than Retail WoW where they've removed all the drawbacks for the sake of a streamlined, easy to access game.
I mean no game gets it perfect. Look at Skyrim and it follows many of the same principles. You carry around shit loads of ammo no real person could carry. You need a mining pick to mine ore. Yet people dont complain about that not being immersive in Skyrim. Failing to realize this shows you're only arguing for the sake of defending Retail WoW's decision the throw all that out.
Nobody said they are the same, but they often overlap. In many cases realism is used to add to immersion. When you say "shooting bullets out of thin air makes no sense" your case is ultimately rooted in realism. Telling people having to carry ammo is more immersive is using realism to justify immersion. No amount of stating immersion is not realism (something I knew already) is going to change it.
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In AC Origins you can retrieve arrows, and there are usually arrows lying around in camps. A single quiver is usually enough with a good combo of stealth and headshots.
Last edited by Clone; 2018-01-14 at 04:42 PM.
Is it? People feel immersed by different things. I don't see how having rules and limitations can make someone immersed, but whatever float your boat.
There are drawbacks you live with to gain the benefits. You're right in that its definitely not a perfect system, but its better than Retail WoW where they've removed all the drawbacks for the sake of a streamlined, easy to access game. For me having or not having a resource that's you are able to carry in amounts that make existence of said resource irrelevant neither breaks or adds to immersion. It literally does nothing for me. And after asking about it couple of dozens people on bnet and whatsapp they share my feelings.
People were kinda, you know, upset that they made arrows weightless in Skyrim at first. Then may realized that it's irrelevant and adds nothing to the game so... now you have virtually unlimited amount of arrows... and you don't have to think about it... and what makes it even more absurd compared to wow - you can loot arrows from dead enemies and actually never had to buy or craft any arrows to use bows - you just never run out of them as long as you keep shooting at someone. Sounds similar? Infinite resource that you no longer have to manage. Just like on live wow.
Skyrim have a weight mechanic, so it's incomparable with wow. Why are you so obsessed with it? Lets talk about, say Divinity? its an RPG and i can't find anyone who will dare to say that this game isn't immersive. It gives you unlimited arrows and ability ti find/craft/buy special arrows that act like skills. Imagine instead of having mana and arrows having to "craft" you skills beforehand? You would have just 50 special arrow slots and, say, 5 trap slots. You have to craft them with your special skills before combat and when you run out of it - you can't use your ranged abilities. I would play that.
I am arguing only for the sake of saying that immersion is subjective feeling that highly depends on a person, his mood and environment. It has nothing to do with being able to carry 10k of arrows or having unlimited amount of arrows (which is the same thing gameplay-vice by the way)
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
its simple. theyre pussies.
Well one thing definitely broke the immersion for me - when a gun made a sound of a bow with certain shots. Glad blizzard fixed that.
Or imagine Barrage being used with old arrows and draining... one arrow. How many arrows actually Barrrage or Volley would have to use? Why Volley used only 1 arrow? It makes no sense.
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
I think torture is probably a slight case of hyperbole. Regardless, there exists on both sides of the equation people who are unable to actually look at the positives and negatives and only see either positives only ( a lot on the pro classic side) or only negatives ( a lot on the anti classic side) which really makes the "discussion" quite useless and devolves into childish bickering and name calling. It would be healthier for both sides to accept that Classic has some good points to it but also had some fundamental flaws that needed fixing.