Crusader strike in vanilla ( old version) to fix paladin dps/tanking

[zelvar]

I was thinking about giving paladins the old beta crusader strike. why?
Well if we are going with the 1.12 talents, all paladins except holy paladins are screwed(reck good for pvp).
Like in early vanilla paladin was a great class, able to tank, dps and heal, but as soon as talents got reworked
and aq gear got into the game paladins got really screwed, while all others got buffs paladins basically got nerfed.
Retri lost its reason to be in raid(blessing of kings) and alot of other changes like nerfing of seal of command and seals in general.
Protection paladins got screwed because they increased mana costs of seals and made prot paladins use spell dmg gear instead of warrior gear
(they removed seal of fury and replaced it with Righteous fury (self buff, but only holy dmg)).

Old Crusader strike would solve both of these issues because then you could spam it to trigger seals and gain mana from SoW JoW, so by seal twisting you would get much better game play. (Old crusader strike worked like the one in scarlet monastery)

If you think this will break pvp, well lets compare to shamans main abilities in 1.12.
They have ghost wolf(can be instant with NS)
Slow, FS and earth bind
Ground and silence for 20 mana(earth shock rank 1)
Stormstrike and WF (wf better than seal of command)
Purge

Paladin has
Aura same as shaman totems, just better
Blessings vs wf and str totem
Stun(very strong, but can be resisted)
Bubble
Seals
Blessing of sacrifce and protection (Almost OP, but can be dispelled)
Blessing of freedom (Free action points potion solves this)

You could argue that retri paladins have more mana sustain with heal, but in later patches any class will get you to 50% in a second, even retri vs retri
healing is often not the best move.
(Paladins are very strong in early content and in end game gear, but sucks in between, and 70% of the content is in between)

Basically as paladin is the easiest class to kite and interupt it should hurt when a paladin comes close to you.

Maybe I just love paladin too much and should just roll a shaman and wait for tbc, but i think the old crusader strike would let us have paladin dps all the way to naxx and paladin tanks in until aq40.

Source: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.1.0
Old paladin spells: https://web.archive.org/web/20050219....cgi?c=Paladin

[Soisoisoi]

So you don't want to play Classic then? Why not ask for TBC instead since that's probably more to your liking and it won't change classic.

[zelvar]

Well i do think vanilla is better then tbc in every way except for class balance and raiding (sadly thats a big part of the game).
So in general i like both in different ways.
I am just suggesting that we include an ability which were intended for vanilla. (I think the striking system for paladin was planned, but something changed it in the last second). If you played an paladin in warcraft 3 and wow beta you were expecting something different then the release paladin.

[Wellzy]

Making a ret paladin as powerful as a full dps class is absurd.

You think making ret dps as good as a pure dps creates "balance and fairness". It does not. It does the exact opposite.

Hybrid classes sacrifice raw dps for utility. This is what support class do in Vanilla wow.


If hybrid classes were as powerful as pure bred classes, no one would play a pure bred class.. rogues, mages, and warriors are now the unbalanced gimps.

[Soisoisoi]

Problem is, if you change one thing, you have to change others... and whilst you're changing that, why not change this, and that slippery slope suddenly turns into an avalanche of changes and it's no longer Vanilla.

Personally, I couldn't give a shit, I'm happy for them to change a few things (graphics as that's on a personal level, doesn't make a difference to anyone else), AoE looting doesn't do anything except saves time on a few extra clicks, etc etc... But when you get to class/balanace/mechanic differences, then it's a whole different game - and people who want the original Vanilla will then not get that, and they'll ask and ask and ask all over again. Might as well just have it as it was, as it should be, I guess.

The easiest argument funnily enough was Prot Paladin. To make them viable tanks in Vanilla they would need to change a fair bit - from spells working with strength not spell power, their mana usage so they don't go OOM, and their lack of taunt. Completely different to what it was just to make it so one spec could tank effectively in raids.

[zelvar]

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Making a ret paladin as powerful as a full dps class is absurd.

You think making ret dps as good as a pure dps creates "balance and fairness". It does not. It does the exact opposite.

Hybrid classes sacrifice raw dps for utility. This is what support class do in Vanilla wow.


If hybrid classes were as powerful as pure bred classes, no one would play a pure bred class.. rogues, mages, and warriors are now the unbalanced gimps.

I dont want that, any pure dps should still beat paladin.

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Problem is, if you change one thing, you have to change others... and whilst you're changing that, why not change this, and that slippery slope suddenly turns into an avalanche of changes and it's no longer Vanilla.

Personally, I couldn't give a shit, I'm happy for them to change a few things (graphics as that's on a personal level, doesn't make a difference to anyone else), AoE looting doesn't do anything except saves time on a few extra clicks, etc etc... But when you get to class/balanace/mechanic differences, then it's a whole different game - and people who want the original Vanilla will then not get that, and they'll ask and ask and ask all over again. Might as well just have it as it was, as it should be, I guess.

The easiest argument funnily enough was Prot Paladin. To make them viable tanks in Vanilla they would need to change a fair bit - from spells working with strength not spell power, their mana usage so they don't go OOM, and their lack of taunt. Completely different to what it was just to make it so one spec could tank effectively in raids.

Actually paladins were viable tanks early, because all paladins spells were really cheap mana wise, but holy paladins were just to good.

[Deleted]

Problem is, if you change one thing, you have to change others... and whilst you're changing that, why not change this, and that slippery slope suddenly turns into an avalanche of changes and it's no longer Vanilla.

Personally, I couldn't give a shit, I'm happy for them to change a few things (graphics as that's on a personal level, doesn't make a difference to anyone else), AoE looting doesn't do anything except saves time on a few extra clicks, etc etc... But when you get to class/balanace/mechanic differences, then it's a whole different game - and people who want the original Vanilla will then not get that, and they'll ask and ask and ask all over again. Might as well just have it as it was, as it should be, I guess.

The easiest argument funnily enough was Prot Paladin. To make them viable tanks in Vanilla they would need to change a fair bit - from spells working with strength not spell power, their mana usage so they don't go OOM, and their lack of taunt. Completely different to what it was just to make it so one spec could tank effectively in raids.

It's a good thing if they change everything. That's how we went into vanilla in the first place, not know what was going to be superior and inferior. Every patch could turn everything upside down. Having everything exactly the same will in fact make it less of a vanilla experience.

I think that the idea that pure dps classes are far superior regarding dpsing in raids is a good idea, and it doesn't have to change just because retri/balance/shadow becomes more available.

[Soisoisoi]

Actually paladins were viable tanks early, because all paladins spells were really cheap mana wise, but holy paladins were just to good.

Then they got changed when everyone else got changed/fixed, which is where most people want to be. If we give Paladins the spec they want, then you'd have to give everyone else the specs they didn't, else you'd be mixing/merging patches or changes and again it just wouldn't be how it was.

It's a good thing if they change everything. That's how we went into vanilla in the first place, not know what was going to be superior and inferior. Every patch could turn everything upside down. Having everything exactly the same will in fact make it less of a vanilla experience.

If they change everything then it won't be Classic WoW, and you might as well be just going into a new expansion (*looks at BFA*). People want to play it how it used to be, not just a completely "new" game in a really old games face.

[Storfan]

So... You want vanilla with sprinkles then?

No. Just nu.

[hulkgor]

I was thinking about giving paladins the old crusader strike. why?
Well if we are going with the 1.12 talents, all paladins except holy paladins are screwed(reck good for pvp).
Like in early vanilla paladin was a great class, able to tank, dps and heal, but as soon as talents got reworked
and aq gear got into the game paladins got really screwed, while all others got buffs paladins basically got nerfed.
Retri lost its reason to be in raid(blessing of kings) and alot of other changes like nerfing of seal of command and seals in general.
Protection paladins got screwed because they increased mana costs of seals and made prot paladins use spell dmg gear instead of warrior gear
(they removed seal of fury and replaced it with Righteous fury (self buff, but only holy dmg)).

Old Crusader strike would solve both of these issues because then you could spam it to trigger seals and gain mana from SoW JoW, so by seal twisting you would get much better game play. (Old crusader strike worked like the one in scarlet monastery)

If you think this will break pvp, well lets compare to shamans main abilities in 1.12.
They have ghost wolf(can be instant with NS)
Slow, FS and earth bind
Ground and silence for 20 mana(earth shock rank 1)
Stormstrike and WF (wf better than seal of command)
Purge

Paladin has
Aura same as shaman totems, just better
Blessings vs wf and str totem
Stun(very strong, but can be resisted)
Bubble
Seals
Blessing of sacrifce and protection (Almost OP, but can be dispelled)
Blessing of freedom (Free action points potion solves this)

You could argue that retri paladins have more mana sustain with heal, but in later patches any class will get you to 50% in a second, even retri vs retri
healing is often not the best move.
(Paladins are very strong in early content and in end game gear, but sucks in between, and 70% of the content is in between)

Basically as paladin is the easiest class to kite and interupt it should hurt when a paladin comes close to you.

Maybe I just love paladin too much and should just roll a shaman and wait for tbc, but i think the old crusader strike would let us have paladin dps all the way to naxx and paladin tanks in until aq40.

Source: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.1.0
Old paladin spells: https://web.archive.org/web/20050219....cgi?c=Paladin

So... don't play classic.

Wasn't hard to solve that issue. Next.

[Deleted]

Then they got changed when everyone else got changed/fixed, which is where most people want to be. If we give Paladins the spec they want, then you'd have to give everyone else the specs they didn't, else you'd be mixing/merging patches or changes and again it just wouldn't be how it was.



If they change everything then it won't be Classic WoW, and you might as well be just going into a new expansion (*looks at BFA*). People want to play it how it used to be, not just a completely "new" game in a really old games face.

People want to play Vanilla, but you can't play vanilla if there is a guide to everything, and if you know which classes/specs will be perpetual bad. At least, with rebalancing, you'll get the true vanilla experience.

That's why you play a game right, because of the experience?

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So... don't play classic.

Wasn't hard to solve that issue. Next.

Or you could play private server instead?

[zelvar]

Then they got changed when everyone else got changed/fixed, which is where most people want to be. If we give Paladins the spec they want, then you'd have to give everyone else the specs they didn't, else you'd be mixing/merging patches or changes and again it just wouldn't be how it was.



If they change everything then it won't be Classic WoW, and you might as well be just going into a new expansion (*looks at BFA*). People want to play it how it used to be, not just a completely "new" game in a really old games face.

I get your point and I kinda agree, but what do you say about talents 1.5 ? I dont know about other classes but patch 1.5 was much better for paladins.
Look at this: https://web.archive.org/web/20051013...s/talents.html

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So... don't play classic.

Wasn't hard to solve that issue. Next.

Well i just wont play paladin, I will be playing shaman.
Btw only reason i suggested including this ability for paladin is because i think its better balance wise than going with 1.5 talents.
If we get 1.5 talents i will roll paladin.
https://web.archive.org/web/20051013...s/talents.html

[Deleted]

Dont listen to the purists on this site. They dont know they are outnumbered they just come with their one catchphrase "you want that, well thats not vanilla then". Not knowing that if they want actual vanilla they get paladins with a permanent immune shield.

The slippery slope isnt an actual argument they just dont get that.

In general i am against introducing new abilities and items to our vanilla experience. I do think paladins should get a taunt though.

I am also on board for way more debuff slots, dual spec for tanks and healers and bug fixing

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So... don't play classic.

Wasn't hard to solve that issue. Next.

Why dont you try actually bringing something to a discussion?

[Deleted]

Dont listen to the purists on this site. They dont know they are outnumbered they just come with their one catchphrase "you want that, well thats not vanilla then". Not knowing that if they want actual vanilla they get paladins with a permanent immune shield.

The slippery slope isnt an actual argument they just dont get that.

In general i am against introducing new abilities and items to our vanilla experience. I do think paladins should get a taunt though.

I am also on board for way more debuff slots, dual spec for tanks and healers and bug fixing

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Why dont you try actually bringing something to a discussion?

Yeah you can actually do a lot without introducing new abilities etc. It's worth tuning and testing around a little bit at the very least, just to see what can come of it.

[vindicatorx]

I am just suggesting that we include an ability which were intended for vanilla. (I think the striking system for paladin was planned, but something changed it in the last second). If you played an paladin in warcraft 3 and wow beta you were expecting something different then the release paladin.

right, it's either the way it was, or no...
I mean you people begged for this shit for years and now all of you are like oh but let's change this and let's change that. It's not classic if it's the not the way it was. Just like Diet Coke is not Coke...

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Well i just wont play paladin, I will be playing shaman.

Great, you finally got it!

[Palapop]

right, it's either the way it was, or no...
I mean you people begged for this shit for years and now all of you are like oh but let's change this and let's change that. It's not classic if it's the not the way it was. Just like Diet Coke is not Coke...

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Great, you finally got it!

Can't agree more with you mate

They were CRYING and BEGGING for it.... and now when it's here- they want to "craft it on their own".

What's the next thing? Flying mounts?

[Deleted]

right, it's either the way it was, or no...
I mean you people begged for this shit for years and now all of you are like oh but let's change this and let's change that. It's not classic if it's the not the way it was. Just like Diet Coke is not Coke...

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Great, you finally got it!

If you are not one of the people who want vanilla then why do you even care?

Vanilla wasnt a perfect experience, what wrong with improving it when we have the chance to do so?

[Deleted]

right, it's either the way it was, or no...
I mean you people begged for this shit for years and now all of you are like oh but let's change this and let's change that. It's not classic if it's the not the way it was. Just like Diet Coke is not Coke...

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Great, you finally got it!

And I'd still say vanilla is more enjoyable than the current iteration. That hasn't changed.

But we have our right to ask for an even more enjoyable vanilla experience. How can you deny us that? Frankly, you have no idea what "we" asked for. Everyone has their own idea of what classic should be. Let's meet the merit of the argument, instead of bullshit arguments like "you have to choose either or, just because!!!!!".

[zelvar]

right, it's either the way it was, or no...
I mean you people begged for this shit for years and now all of you are like oh but let's change this and let's change that. It's not classic if it's the not the way it was. Just like Diet Coke is not Coke...

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Great, you finally got it!

Well I just wanted to figure out if others shared my view, and seems like most people dont, so yeah I will play shaman instead

[Deleted]

And I'd still say vanilla is more enjoyable than the current iteration. That hasn't changed.

But we have our right to ask for an even more enjoyable vanilla experience. How can you deny us that? Frankly, you have no idea what "we" asked for. Everyone has their own idea of what classic should be. Let's meet the merit of the argument, instead of bullshit arguments like "you have to choose either or, just because!!!!!".

Its called generalization. Its something we are still battling in the 21st century apparently