PSA: Level all of your sub-90 toons NOW

[Queen of Hamsters]

Now, they make leveling slow again, but why I wonder. I mean nothing wrong with that at all. But it has been ten years since they started speeding up leveling and all of a sudden they do a 180 degree turn.

They probably realized just how fractured the early leveling experience had become. Making it go by faster and faster didn't exactly improve the experience to people that care about the journey in itself.

Also: MAUsA or what it's called that they started reporting with quarterly reports. <.<

[Magnagarde]

Some people become incredibly defensive and snarky when you have a negative opinion about an aspect of WoW. It's actually quite weird. I suspect they've invested so much of their time and/or personal identity into the game that an attack on WoW feels like an attack on them personally.

Glad I'm not the only one who sees it for what it most likely is.

Reminds me of all the Draenor Pathfinder discussions, in which those that quested through it were adamant about their opinion that whoever wants to fly in Draenor in the future should have to do the same because they've done it too.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I mean, I get it. I've been playing since TBC, but I've always had things I was skeptical or critical about when playing WoW, all throughout the years (while still enjoying the game as a whole), so I guess it hasn't quite reached the same level for me.

- - - Updated - - -


You seem extraordinarily irritated and snappy. Like I said: as if you feel personally attacked. That's why I felt it might be better to take a breather.

Again, projecting?

If you need me to be "irritated and snappy" in your mind, then that's your right I suppose.

[SirCowdog]

Why should having the opinion that adding ANY time to levelling is too much require some sort of manifesto as to why the person thinks it?

The idea that you lay out paying $60 to skip a rather large amount of timesink overhead, that will essentially be foisted on the entire playerbase that wants to utilize the new races that are featured in the new expac without paying 60 bucks as a valid option is beyond me. This revamped levelling is nothing more than a flagrant timegrab coupled with a new incentive to slog through old shit on the part of Blizzard to bump their time played metrics, which happens to be the new and exciting gaming company metric on Wall Street. This is not a coincidence and it is not benign. It is a deliberate timesink that has little to no value to people who want to play at max level which is a large chunk of Blizzard's current paying customers and will be greeted by them accordingly.

See, even this is more than what Yarathir posted. At least there's a basis for discussion here.

So, your point about players who want to play at max level: Presumably these players already have at least one character at max level. They've been through the level process and 'been there done that'. So they want MORE characters at max level, but don't want to put in the extra time to get them. Fine, I can understand that.

But my counter point is that Blizzard gives players a free character boost with each expansion, specifically to help with this sort of thing. No charge. Boom, 2nd character at max level with no work or time invested. Apparently that's not good enough, however, since players want MORE characters at max level without either paying for the boost or putting in the time.

So, WHY do they deserve to have more characters at max level without hardly any effort? Simply because they've done it a few times already?

The changes to the leveling process is going to smooth out the experience for anyone who actually enjoys leveling, and isn't just interested in getting to max level ASAP. Those players have not had any such option due to how broken and unbalanced the game was outside of the current expansion. This isn't a "flagrant timegrab". It's fixing what was, up until now, a MASSIVELY broken aspect of the game which many people want to enjoy. Players can now complete quest chains and stay in the zone to complete it's story without feeling pressured to leave in order to keep being rewarded appropriate to their efforts. They can jump in and out of dungeon queues and return to EXACTLY where they left off, without disrupting their zone progress. They can actually enjoy the progression of their character and use their skills without one-shotting enemies almost by accident. Because of the way scaling works, they can also choose their favorite expansion to level/quest in, providing even more options.

In short, they can actually play and enjoy the game while leveling instead of being forced into a headlong rush of broken quests and disjointed story.

The problem I see here is that the group of players you're talking about only want capped characters as fast as possible, and don't care what anyone else wants. And Blizzard has, over the years, added SEVERAL ways to get them that: Heirlooms(multiple pieces), RaF, hero classes, and character boosts. But according to players like you and Yarathir, that's not good enough. The fact that other players are having an improved experience, and the game's older content is being cleaned up is, apparently, irrelevant.

And what I find most ridiculous about this entire point of view is that, from what I've seen of players actually leveling using heirlooms, the total absolute time required to reach 100 isn't all that much worse than live. Things like getting flight in expansion zones without having to get special training will speed things up. Not having to leave entire zones and expansions will save time as well. Add to that the ability to go to whichever zone you're most familiar with will further speed up efficiency(MoP treasures, WoD bonus quests, etc).

Regardless, yes, I fully admit that the paid character boost will be made more attractive to people who absolutely despise leveling. But again I have to point out that it DOES exist as an option. And not only that, but an option which you can leverage your existing alts to help pay for through the gold token using passive income via things like the follower missions.

The pros of the new system FAR outweigh the cons.

[Keile]

They probably realized just how fractured the early leveling experience had become. Making it go by faster and faster didn't exactly improve the experience to people that care about the journey in itself.

Also: MAUsA or what it's called that they started reporting with quarterly reports. <.<

Just like with the ilvl squishes, they realized after giving us all these ways to speed it up over the years it got out of control and needed to be toned down.

I guarantee you they will add something similar to the Rapid Mind elixirs again in the future.

[Queen of Hamsters]

And what I find most ridiculous about this entire point of view is that, from what I've seen of players actually leveling using heirlooms, the total absolute time required to reach 100 isn't all that much worse than live. Things like getting flight in expansion zones without having to get special training will speed things up. Not having to leave entire zones and expansions will save time as well. Add to that the ability to go to whichever zone you're most familiar with will further speed up efficiency(MoP treasures, WoD bonus quests, etc).

Regardless, yes, I fully admit that the paid character boost will be made more attractive to people who absolutely despise leveling. But again I have to point out that it DOES exist as an option. And not only that, but an option which you can leverage your existing alts to help pay for through the gold token using passive income via things like the follower missions.

The pros of the new system FAR outweigh the cons.

Exactly this, it would seem that there's quite some hyperbole flourishing around the amount of actual time that it'll realistically take to level.

[Izalla]

The problem with that is twofold:

First, nostalgia can't be recreated. Whatever you felt when you first overcame those challenges won't be experienced again because you now know better. Which brings me to the second part.

Second: Fatigue. It's inevitable that the more times you repeat a piece of content, the more it's appeal starts to wear off. In a game that's as heavily bent towards making challenges obsolete through progressing gear and stats, simply making enemies more difficult will only maintain its appeal for a VERY short amount of time. This is especially true if the rewards are not continually worth the effort.

What might appear to be fun and interesting in the first 30 levels of questing might QUICKLY become tedious and irritating if it's maintained for 110 levels. Having to go full swat team ultra raid mode difficulty with every fight will get old fast. even Dark Souls alternates between relatively easy enemies and difficult boss fights. Blizzard will need to be VERY careful when attempting to strike that balance.

You're right on the nostalgia thing but keep in mind I was talking about tackling quests you have no business doing yet/alone just to see if you can, not being forced to fight every single enemy that way. I'm under no delusions that that would be fun. A couple elite quests here and there wasn't bad, especially now that you can just use group finder to complete them easy peasy if you just want to get them done ASAP.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Just like with the ilvl squishes, they realized after giving us all these ways to speed it up over the years it got out of control and needed to be toned down.

I guarantee you they will add something similar to the Rapid Mind elixirs again in the future.

Oh I don't doubt it, they're quite skilled at that sort of development.
Hopefully if they add Rapid Mind Elixirs in the future, they'll be from a source that's convenient to the people truly wanting to skip through leveling as much as possible.

[thunderdragon2]

More accurate would be that people that hate Live leveling (and I can't blame them, it's godawful) see these changes and think it is nothing but more hours of how it is on Live. They either can't or refuse to take the time to consider that these changes might alleviate some of the problems leveling has that makes them hate it in the first place. Higher mob health and damage means suddenly the rest of your spellbook might feel relevant, dungeon bosses doesn't drop in 10 seconds. Healers actually have stuff to heal. You can't pull an entire area of mobs without looking at your healthbar. Godmode isn't fun for an extended amount of time and that's essentially what Live leveling is right now. People are worried this will do nothing but extend that misery.


Anyone leveling a caster live? How fun is it to be unable to cast anything on trash before the tank has killed it with 3 AoE gcds? It's a mindnumbingly boring race to the finish. It's insulting to players. New players grow bored of it because they aren't veterans that "know the game starts at max-level".


On the PTR you actually have time to cast in dungeons and that makes it feel like you're contributing, and not just running along knowing you could put /follow on the healer and the dungeon would probably be over with in the same amount of time.


7.3.5 can't get here soon enough. I think a lot of the misguided negativity will die down when people give it a proper try and realize it is not about making you level slower, but to actually feel like you're playing an RPG on your way to max-level, when there is a possibility of dying, when your spellbook beyond speed- and damage becomes useful. My biggest concern isn't my "levels per hour", it's whether or not I'm enjoying my time leveling up my alt, and on Live I can't understand how anyone would be, when you're plowing everything down like they didn't even exist.


Also lul at people that can't seem to understand that part of the reason Xp / level increased was because all mobs and quests will be level-appropriate. But that's asking too much.

revert the exp requirement changes to level then comeback im ok with old world scaling but name like me dont want to spend more time getting more exp for stuff we have done 2-8 times alredy, we just want to be done with it at the pace we are use to levelling at . THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE INCREASED EXP REQUIREMENTS
just because mob and quests will be scaled dosen't make a increase in exp need per level a requirement

[Eleccybubb]

Oh I don't doubt it, they're quite skilled at that sort of development.
Hopefully if they add Rapid Mind Elixirs in the future, they'll be from a source that's convenient to the people truly wanting to skip through leveling as much as possible.

It shouldn't have been removed in the first place though. It wasn't falling from the sky in terms of drops so I don't see the issue with it remaining.

Either it's going to a different source that goes from 1-110 and drops in BFA content or it's going to be a store item which is a pretty crappy move if they do.

[Magicpot]

Oh, please let me know how I can have a max level character without leveling it.

The opinion part is that you think that leveling isn't also for fun. I'm certainly having fun doing it, why else would I have leveled 12 characters to max level throughout?

[DarkAmbient]

Glad I'm not the only one who sees it for what it most likely is.

Reminds me of all the Draenor Pathfinder discussions, in which those that quested through it were adamant about their opinion that whoever wants to fly in Draenor in the future should have to do the same because they've done it too.

Why did you change my name when you quoted me?

[Queen of Hamsters]

It shouldn't have been removed in the first place though. It wasn't falling from the sky in terms of drops so I don't see the issue with it remaining.

Either it's going to a different source or it's going to be a store item which is a pretty crappy move if they do.

Agreed 100%, and I hope that IF they were dumb enough to make such a move, they'd be bogged down with negative reactions.
Which they probably would be, thankfully.

[Eleccybubb]

This is how I see it personally.

If you level fast now you will still level fast in 7.3.5. I can absolutely guarantee that.

It's factually slower I'm not denying that. But to claim it's back to Wrath or Vanilla levels of slow is blowing it way out of proportion.

Me personally it took me 7 days for 1-90 on PTR compared to the 5 on live. And to be fair for most of 1 day I was messing about consistently going between zones.

If you feel you have to buy a character boost over a few extra days at maximum then that is on you. I personally wouldn't throw £49 down over it.

So in short. It's not bad at all. However them removing the Elixir was an idiotic move and something tells me knowing Blizzard it's just going to come back as a store item. Which I don't agree with.

[Deleted]

Stay at your job a few extra hours each month...buy a level boost. It's not like Blizzard isn't giving you options here....

It is not really a compelling "option" though. If I were to build a theme park and told you to walk 10 miles to reach the ride, unless you're willing to pay an extra to skip the walking, I think you would be pissed quite a bit.

It is certain the current (on live servers) leveling experience isn't entertaining at all, as most content was tuned with different battle system in mind (when classes had other abilities/mechanics). But the answer isn't to give mobs more health and to stretch out the time needed to reach cap.

If anything, the time spent leveling should be drastically reduced, so that only a few select areas per character would need to be completed to reach legion area. A little bit like how TESO handles leveling : you reach the cap long before you complete even one of the former faction's areas, and then there is plenty more content for you to do with other characters or the one you just leveled.

The current leveling overhaul, while positive in how blizzard allow players to tackle expansion areas in non linear way, is flawed because it seems the aim is to make players who already know most areas to buy boosts.

[Yarathir]

It is not really a compelling "option" though. If I were to build a theme park and told you to walk 10 miles to reach the ride, unless you're willing to pay an extra, I think you would be pissed quite a bit.

It is certain the current (on live servers) leveling experience isn't entertaining at all, as most content was tuned with different battle system in mind (when classes had other abilities/mechanics). But the answer isn't to give mobs more health and to stretch out the time needed to reach cap.

If anything, the time spent leveling should be drastically reduced, so that only a few select areas per character would need to be completed to reach legion area. A little bit like how TESO handles leveling : you reach the cap long before you reach level 50, and then there is plenty more content for you to do with other characters or the one you just leveled.

The current leveling overhaul, while positive in how blizzard allow players to tackle expansion areas in non linear way, is flawed because it seems the aim is to make players who already know most areas to buy boosts.

This. Saying "buy a boost. Buy RAF. Buy exp potions that are removed from the game for 100k+ a pop." is not really a fair option. That's like me saying: "Oh? You want to see all the quests and experience the whole story? Well, you can do so even if you outlevel it, right? Just do them even when they don't give xp."

[SirCowdog]

It is not really a compelling "option" though. If I were to build a theme park and told you to walk 10 miles to reach the ride, unless you're willing to pay an extra to skip the walking, I think you would be pissed quite a bit.

That's a terrible analogy. First off, if you were to build this theme park and offer to drop me at the end for free the first time, I might take you up on it if all I wanted was at the end. But what if the 10 miles between the ride was full of incredible scenery, shops, restaurants, art galleries, book stores, and many other interesting things? Also, if someone offered to teleport me somewhere 10 miles away, I think it would be worth $60.

Now, some people are still going to want to skip to the end of the theme park and jump straight to the ride, and you offer them several options to get there: A bike or a car that gets them around faster(heirlooms), or you say that if you run with a friend, you'll go even faster(RaF).

After that, you say..."Well now the theme park has 15 miles between the entrance and the ride, but we're arranging all the other attractions on the way to make the walk there more enjoyable, even if it takes a bit longer. You can still skip to the end with all the other options, but this might be nice too."

To which some people reply: "I don't care about all that, I just want to get to the ride."

You gesture to all the options that are still there for getting to the ride faster(including the first free skip each time a new ride is added), and they say: "That's not good enough!"

How do you suppose you'd react?

It is certain the current (on live servers) leveling experience isn't entertaining at all, as most content was tuned with different battle system in mind (when classes had other abilities/mechanics). But the answer isn't to give mobs more health and to stretch out the time needed to reach cap.

If anything, the time spent leveling should be drastically reduced, so that only a few select areas per character would need to be completed to reach legion area. A little bit like how TESO handles leveling : you reach the cap long before you reach level 50, and then there is plenty more content for you to do with other characters or the one you just leveled.

The current leveling overhaul, while positive in how blizzard allow players to tackle expansion areas in non linear way, is flawed because it seems the aim is to make players who already know most areas to buy boosts.

Oh I agree that the leveling process and older content could use more to make it better. Honestly I think the level scaling should go all the way from 1 to Cap in EVERY zone, and shouldn't cut out at certain stages(60 for Vanilla, 80 for TBC/WotLK, 90 for Cata/MOP, etc). It's weird. If they're going to use scaling, then SCALE. Still, it's a good first step, and was definitely needed.

It would be interesting to see experience required to reach cap reduced, but scale everything up to cap, and give rewards appropriate to a capped player no matter what content they're completing. Add world quests at max level to ALL zones. Let players spend their time wherever, and put expansion-specific rewards behind rep gates or quest completion maybe, to get people to focus on the recent stuff first.

[Maglen]

Remember when heirlooms were introduced? During WotLK - when leveling was still 'coherent and engaging'. There's a reason they were so popular back then - people wanted to level as fast as possible, despite the 'coherent and engaging' leveling process. Why? Because they'd done it already, multiple times. They know the story, they've explored all there is to explore. Making the leveling process take even longer is not going to make those players suddenly feel 'engaged' in the process. It's just going to annoy them.

The WHOLE reason Heirlooms were introduced was to speed up the leveling process for people who've already done it on one character.

[Maudib]

That's YOUR view on leveling. You know what else was a common saying during Vanilla? The game starts at level cap. Because it does. Everything before that is just busy work and tutorial bullshit. If you think they've lost money because leveling is too fast / too easy and getting into the meat of the game is faster and more streamlined, well, I can't really help you.

You know what I remember fondly about Vanilla? The dungeons, the raids, the PvP. Not the leveling. The leveling was just an obstacle to get to the good shit, the dungeons weren't even worth running while leveling.

And that is YOUR view. This game appealed to a wide audience. But it's clear that "raiding/dungeons" has never been better and more accessible... and yet WoW continues to decline in subscribership.

That is why i believe Classic will overtake "current WoW".

[Keile]

And that is YOUR view. This game appealed to a wide audience. But it's clear that "raiding/dungeons" has never been better and more accessible... and yet WoW continues to decline in subscribership.

That is why i believe Classic will overtake "current WoW".

Wow is declining in subscribers due to it's age, not due to how the game has changed. Any MMO as old as WoW hit a peak (WotLK) that it will never hit again (or at least in WoWs case hold because it did spike back up to those levels temporarily).