Child death rate higher in United States than other wealthy nations

[PosPosPos]

The discussion was about child death rates and gun violence was brought up as a cause for African-American deaths which is directly stated as being such in the article, you immediately discounted it because you apparently think gun violence is only a thing that happens to adults. If you look at the data you'll see that deaths as a result of homicide is crazy high among the African-American population across all child age groups, in the range of 1.5 to 3 times the average rate.

Also, sorry to burst your bubble, but malnutrition isn't even in the top 10 causes of death for children of any race.

CDC Death Stats for 2014 if you want to take a look without a biased article coloring your views

You think black men are getting shot before the age of 1?

Because this post and the posts it was trying to address were trying to talk about adolescents(i.e. older children).

Ai yai yai, alt-righters and their inability to read or understand the meanings of simple words and phrases.

So your position is that Nazis have infiltrated the highest echelons of the US government since the 60s and have been creating economic hardships in an attempt to kill minority children? That's some conspiracy theory level of bullshit. At best there's a callous disregard for the plight of impoverished groups. More likely its people having no idea what the far reaching results of their economic policies will be as we saw with the housing crisis.

It's not so much "my position" or "conspiracy theory level of bullshit" as it is a fact.

I suppose that it's not surprising that you would invoke your ilk's usual brand of history revisionism; just like most criminals vehemently deny their crimes.

[bladeXcrasher]

It's all true, when you look at the statistics, the countries with properly funded socialised health systems have the best outcomes, by measures like cancer survivial rates, infant mortality, life expectancy and so on. The American healthcare system is very good if you can afford it fully, but lots of Americans can't, so they are forced into an inadequate safety net which dramatically drags the averages down. An purely insurance based system is one where profit is always placed first. This enourages massive iefficiences and bad practise, for example it's mor eprofitable for a hospital to keep someone alive but needing treatment than it is to cure them. It's mor eprofitable to subject a patient to lots of expensive tests that probably aren;t needed. At th eother end, insurance companies won;t touch some people with a bargepole. I was born with chronic, inherited asthma. The medical or insurance fees would have been astronomical, or not available at all.

Likewise with the crime figures. You insist that America's harsh system of long custodial sentences and the death penalty works. If it did, America would have much lower crime rates and crimes punishable by death woul dbe virtually unknown, whilst the soft, liberalcountries in Europe that focus on rehabilitation and where exeuction is banned would be hotbeds of violent crime and murder. The opposite is true; it's the European countries that have lower crime and murder rates, and America that has more crime, and the states with the death penalty have some of the highest murder rates of all.

Gun ownership: the gun lobby argues that guns prevent crime, that armed citizens can protect themselves and shoot maniacs with guns. The reality, though, is that it has turne dinto an armed race.

Criminals are habitually armed, over heavily so (sometimes so much that the cops have to call in army units). You get maniacs with guns because guns are so easy to obtain. Massacres by lunatics with assault rifles are virtually unheard of in Europe.

It is also true that more than half of Americans believe the Biblical creation story is literally true.

Here is the Noah's Ark you can visit:

https://arkencounter.com/

and the Creationist museum

https://creationmuseum.org/

It's a weird vanity that Americans insist they have the best of everything when it can be factually proven to be untrue. Why take it as a personal insult? Europe isn;t perfect, I'm happy to say that America does some stuff better than we do.

Please post that statistic, that greater than 50% of Americans are creationists, not some dopey museum you saw in a Bill Maher movie.

[Noradin]

So trying to be a good person is Anti-PC?

Could you clarify why you felt the need to include a quote of a post of mine in that random comment?

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People are mostly in jail for violence, stealing, or drugs. I'm personally not a fan of our drug policies and would love to see some liberalization of these laws, but let's be clear, these aren't "caught with a joint" level offenses.

I see a very big portion of people in local jails who are not (yet?) convicted, those are probably there because thy cannot pay their bonds in many cases.
Also, isn't there the problem with plea deals that people who cannot afford good representation get frightened into making a plea deal for something they might not be guilty of just to avoid even harsher sentencing due to insufficient funds for adequate representation?
(Yes, personally I think allowing plea deals is the opposite of trying to do justice.)

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I didn't comment on the efficacy of the system, I objected to a specific, false statement about it. I'm not interested in your digression from that.

So in other words you are not interested in anything that might parry your deflection.

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[B]An infant death in the US is often logged as a miscarriage in many of the low infant mortality countries.

It's a reporting issue.

It often is.

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Tell that to the families of those who got mawed down in France on Bastille Day by a lunatic that already had a record of violence that would have sent him to jail in any self respecting country but not in our sweet and lovely EU. There are thousands of exemples like that on any scale across the UK, France & Germany, where gang rape and barbarism are now an everyday habit.

You are so full of crap and blind to what's going on.
There is an unprecedented violent crime wave hitting our countries and we have to listen to smartasses like you that are in such a hurry to find excuses for criminals and press the urge to reintegrate them back into society, while ignoring the victims that are not so lucky to have their limbs grow back or their loved ones brought back to life.

I sincerely hope you won't find yourself or someone you love at the wrong place on the wrong time.

You have any statistics to back up those wild claims or are you just here to bash the "evil EU"?

[Aurrora]

Because this post and the posts it was trying to address were trying to talk about adolescents(i.e. older children).

The post it was replying to was only about African-American gun violence being a possible cause for higher mortality rates among African-American children, Mormolyce sidetracked the conversation by trying to discount that as being in the realm of adult deaths rates when this is simply untrue. African-American children are more likely to die as a result of violence than any other race. Is this necessarily gun-violence? <shrug> The CDC data doesn't break down the deaths into what the specific cause was but please explain to us how capitalism is responsible for this.

<blah blah blah everything I don't like is alt-right>

You're calling Democrats alt-righters now too? Did you even read the Wikipedia there? "With race less important, economic and cultural conservatism (especially regarding abortion) became more important in the South, with its large religious right element, such as Southern Baptists."

See this is the bad habit you SJW-types have of placing everyone you don't like into the same box. Do you not see how this behavior is devaluing the terms "racist" and "Nazi"? When your go-to argument is to call someone you disagree with "alt-right" more and more people are going to roll their eyes and ignore the rest of your argument(if one's even present).

Your posts in this thread have been complete ad-hominems instead of arguments backing up your assertions, so please tell us: How is malnutrition responsible for African-American children deaths skewing higher despite not even being among the top 10 causes of death?

[Spectral]

I see a very big portion of people in local jails who are not (yet?) convicted, those are probably there because thy cannot pay their bonds in many cases.
Also, isn't there the problem with plea deals that people who cannot afford good representation get frightened into making a plea deal for something they might not be guilty of just to avoid even harsher sentencing due to insufficient funds for adequate representation?
(Yes, personally I think allowing plea deals is the opposite of trying to do justice.)

OK, so feel free to focus on local jails and the issues around whether the right to a speedy trial is being violated. I'm inclined to agree with that argument - the bureaucratic nightmare that is the American legal system isn't really something anyone should defend. The overall picture is not at all consistent with the claim that "majority of the US population are incarcerated for minor crimes or the crime of being poor". The majority are there for violence, burglary, weapons charges, or drug distribution. I guess you could split hairs and claim these are minor or claim that they're mostly innocent or something, but it's going to be a very different argument than that initial claim where the legal system is just locking people up for lack of money.

So in other words you are not interested in anything that might parry your deflection.

I didn't deflect. I addressed an empirically false claim to direct, summary data that shows it to be false and someone responded to me with an extrapoliation into an attack on ideas that I just don't hold. I'm not going to argue about positions I don't hold.

[Noradin]

I didn't deflect. I addressed an empirically false claim to direct, summary data that shows it to be false and someone responded to me with an extrapoliation into an attack on ideas that I just don't hold. I'm not going to argue about positions I don't hold.

My apologies then, it did look like a deflection to me, maybe I have seen too many troll posts on this forum lately.

[oxymoronic]

So why is the US society so violent,so criminal, and so addicted to drugs?

been telling you, you just aint fucking listening. how many more times does it need to be said?

[Noradin]

The majority are there for violence, burglary, weapons charges, or drug distribution. I guess you could split hairs and claim these are minor or claim that they're mostly innocent or something, but it's going to be a very different argument than that initial claim where the legal system is just locking people up for lack of money.

My problem with your statistic is that I have no way of telling which of those incarcerations are because of plea deals and due to insufficient representation for monetary reasons. Thus (while it technically addresses the post you responded to), it does not tell me where to search for the underlying problem, with the judicate, with the detention centres and prisons, or with some "inherent cultural problem unique to the USA".

[Aurrora]

Can you provide any examples of this actually happening? As near as I can tell, the notion of doctors that deliberately keep people sick for profit is nothing but a vicious slander.

That's at the level of big-pharma, not hospitals and doctors. If you have a treatment that's making you money it's more profitable to put money into researching cures/treatments for other diseases than the find a cure for something you're already treating.

[Spectral]

That's at the level of big-pharma, not hospitals and doctors. If you have a treatment that's making you money it's more profitable to put money into researching cures/treatments for other diseases than the find a cure for something you're already treating.

How does this particular claim tie in with the tens of billions of public sector spending on biomedical research in the United States and additional research done in nations that don't have the incentives the United States does?

[THE Bigzoman]

My problem with your statistic is that I have no way of telling which of those incarcerations are because of plea deals and due to insufficient representation for monetary reasons. Thus (while it technically addresses the post you responded to), it does not tell me where to search for the underlying problem, with the judicate, with the detention centres and prisons, or with some "inherent cultural problem unique to the USA".

First Statement: People are being incarcerated for minor crimes or being poor.

Second Statment: I don't know which underlying cause contributes most to convictions in the U.S.

So...what is your first statement based on?

[szechuan]

There are a few things to nitpick here - infant mortality is not calculated the same across country and the United States cancer outcomes are better than most other countries (although it varies by cancer and it's not clear that American goals with regard to cancer a good idea, even if they lengthen lives). Life expectancy is so heavily skewed by demographics (race, fitness, obesity, diet) that it's not a particularly good metric for medical systems.

Sorry but it is, it's called equal ground.

[Sargerasraider]

Sorry but it is, it's called equal ground.

No, it's not.

There are many issues to take with the US health system, but this is not one of them. Having a higher rate of premature birth, "doing everything" for 23 week gestation newborns at the edge of viability (and counting their deaths), not aborting the majority of fetuses with chromosomal or other major anomalies clearly will increase the infant mortality rate, even with equivalent care.

I guarantee you that I could overnight improve the rate by (1) incarcerating expectant mothers for 9 months and controlling diet / diabetes / substance use, (2) encourage an abortion at the first sign of a problem (this is common practice in Europe), and (3) not count extreme premature births for whom resuscitation is not attempted.

[szechuan]

No, it's not.

There are many issues to take with the US health system, but this is not one of them. Having a higher rate of premature birth, "doing everything" for 23 week gestation newborns at the edge of viability (and counting their deaths), not aborting the majority of fetuses with chromosomal or other major anomalies clearly will increase the infant mortality rate, even with equivalent care.

I guarantee you that I could overnight improve the rate by (1) incarcerating expectant mothers for 9 months and controlling diet / diabetes / substance use, (2) encourage an abortion at the first sign of a problem (this is common practice in Europe), and (3) not count extreme premature births for whom resuscitation is not attempted.

i was talking about equal ground on scale of current measurements used.

[Sargerasraider]

i was talking about equal ground on scale of current measurements used.

But even that's not the case (if I'm understanding you correctly). Different countries measure different things. The US counts any infant with any sign of life as a death. Many other countries will count extremely premature infants as stillbirths if no resuscitation is attempted. When you're dealing with extremely low rates, any change in measurement makes a huge difference.

[szechuan]

nvm ignore this.

[Draco-Onis]

I'm amazed at the various odd things people believe about incarceration, but this meme is about just about tops. Which of these would you classify as the "crime of being poor" and how do you get that to being the majority?

People are mostly in jail for violence, stealing, or drugs. I'm personally not a fan of our drug policies and would love to see some liberalization of these laws, but let's be clear, these aren't "caught with a joint" level offenses.

About a quarter of those under drug crime are for Marijuana and the war on drugs heavily leans on people of color. Also a lot of these crimes are the result of a system that has a high recidivism rate (76.6% within 5 years), our prison system is not designed to reform people it is made to create worse criminals and repeat offenders. And also the vast majority of them are poor which our legal system pretty much guarantees that they will plead guilty even if they did not commit the crime. The legal representation for people who are poor is basically absent they do not have the money to go to court and plead their case and will take a plea because that is all they can afford. There's no justice for the poor only jail time regardless of innocence.

[szechuan]

About a quarter of those under drug crime are for Marijuana and the war on drugs heavily leans on people of color. Also a lot of these crimes are the result of a system that has a high recidivism rate (76.6% within 5 years), our prison system is not designed to reform people it is made to create worse criminals and repeat offenders. And also the vast majority of them are poor which our fines and bail system put more pressure for them to commit more crimes.

That is the complete truth, the vast majority of U.S. Private Prisons are Slave Owners not there to help them reform.

[Spectral]

About a quarter of those under drug crime are for Marijuana and the war on drugs heavily leans on people of color. Also a lot of these crimes are the result of a system that has a high recidivism rate (76.6% within 5 years), our prison system is not designed to reform people it is made to create worse criminals and repeat offenders. And also the vast majority of them are poor which our legal system pretty much guarantees that they will plead guilty even if they did not commit the crime. The legal representation for people who are poor is basically absent they do not have the money to go to court and plead their case and will take a plea because that is all they can afford. There's no justice for the poor only jail time regardless of innocence.
<snip>

This doesn't address the core point - people aren't being jailed for being poor, poor people are committing more crimes, mostly of the violent or property varieties, and getting jailed for it.

The graph is almost comical in the conclusions that people are inclined to draw from it - no shit, people with middle class incomes commit less crimes? Who would have thought, huh?

I actually agree with your point regarding the difficulty of proving oneself not guilty, I just think the number of false imprisonments is much lower than what you're apparently trying to imply.

[PosPosPos]

The post it was replying to was only about African-American gun violence being a possible cause for higher mortality rates among African-American children, Mormolyce sidetracked the conversation by trying to discount that as being in the realm of adult deaths rates when this is simply untrue. African-American children are more likely to die as a result of violence than any other race. Is this necessarily gun-violence? <shrug> The CDC data doesn't break down the deaths into what the specific cause was but please explain to us how capitalism is responsible for this.

New alt-right spin: <1 year old children are "adolescents and older children".

You're calling Democrats alt-righters now too? Did you even read the Wikipedia there? "With race less important, economic and cultural conservatism (especially regarding abortion) became more important in the South, with its large religious right element, such as Southern Baptists."

See this is the bad habit you SJW-types have of placing everyone you don't like into the same box. Do you not see how this behavior is devaluing the terms "racist" and "Nazi"? When your go-to argument is to call someone you disagree with "alt-right" more and more people are going to roll their eyes and ignore the rest of your argument(if one's even present).

Your posts in this thread have been complete ad-hominems instead of arguments backing up your assertions, so please tell us: How is malnutrition responsible for African-American children deaths skewing higher despite not even being among the top 10 causes of death?

Alt-right comprehension levels in the negatives and still somehow dropping further.

In the ensuing years, the increasing conservatism of the Republican Party compared to the liberalism of the Democratic Party led many more conservative white Democrats in the South to vote Republican. Many continued to vote for Democrats at the state and local levels for years after. By the start of the 21st century, Republicans had gained a solid advantage over Democrats at all levels of politics in most Southern states.

Simple-speak: the white supremacists/Neo-Nazis changed parties from Democrat to Republican.

New alt-right spin 2: "Democrats" who vote Republican are still Democrats.