Jeremy Corbyn: 'We are not calling for second Brexit referendum'

[ranzino]

Well considering Norn Iron will not accept any kind of border between either itself and the Republic of Ireland or itself and Great Britain (that's Scotland, England and Wales) then something has got to give somewhere.

Open order and "UK follows NI's needs" means a "super fluffy" Brexit, not even just soft. so why even try to brexit ?
Come to the EU side, we got all those yummy cookies

[Kronik85]

Open order and "UK follows NI's needs" means a "super fluffy" Brexit, not even just soft. so why even try to brexit ?
Come to the EU side, we got all those yummy cookies

Aye it's a real head scratcher. Even as a remainer the notion of a non-Brexit Brexit is irksome, it somehow feels worse than an actual Brexit.

[Kronik85]

I mean I know you lose voting rights in the EU but you still keep pretty much everything else in a Norway-model deal and let's face it, it's not like the people of the UK gave a fuck about those rights, they barely voted for EU parliament elections.

Aye indeed, if only Freedom of Movement wasn't the hill Brexit was made to die on. Pretty much buggers every reasonable option up when everything you want is gated behind the one thing you won't accept.

[Kronik85]

Indeed, you should be free to deny those evil Polish nurses
It's really so funny seeing this argument in the UK considering that overwhelmingly the problem immigrants (not saying immigrants are a problem but invariably some few will be) are from former colonies and not the EU and those aren't going anywhere.

Dey terk er jerbz!

Was watching an unrelated documentary on what it means to be White Working Class in Britain and one of the Britain First lot thought that remaining in the EU meant 20,000 Turkish families would be shipped over to the UK.

How do you even unpick that mess?

[Kallisto]

Dey terk er jerbz!

Was watching an unrelated documentary on what it means to be White Working Class in Britain and one of the Britain First lot thought that remaining in the EU meant 20,000 Turkish families would be shipped over to the UK.

How do you even unpick that mess?

We still have overseas territories. Pitcairn might be a good far enough out of the way place for them so they can't spread their stupidity. Could send them all there.

[Mormolyce]

You know, there's no need for a second referendum. They aren't binding, you can just ignore them.

not leftist enough huh?

You need somebody like stalin or trotskiy?

Not good at reading posts, are you?

Or maybe you can't see anything through all the projection.

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We still have overseas territories. Pitcairn might be a good far enough out of the way place for them so they can't spread their stupidity. Could send them all there.

No sending them over here though. We're out of the convict business!

[Floopa]

okay so for people who don't understand things, here is Labour's position:

73/27 of Labour voters are remain/leave, compared to 39/61 of Conservative voters who are remain/leave.

those 27% of Labour voters are all voters in traditional working class areas in the North, they will switch to Tory though if Labour go soft on Brexit. The 39% remain vote on the other hand wont switch to Labour because of the type of Labour leader it is (hence why polling puts Labour roughly 41-42% and Conservative 39-40% right now, despite the Conservative party actually fucking every aspect of our country up).

the way to win the argument is by voting it down in parliament. the EU withdrawal bill has it's 3rd vote this week, it's hjigh likely to pass (the Tory rebels which voted it down at 2nd reading are now appeased) and then it goes to Lords. if it fails to pass, there will be a GE. later on in the year, we'll have the final "take it or leave it" vote in parliament re: eu trade deal, if that gets voted down (highly likely) there will be a GE.

Labour are purposely obfuscating the situation because they will win a GE should 1 get called this year. not only that, but Labour's leaving of the eu would be to stay in CU, leave SM, abide by ECHR but not CJEU. if we stay in the single market, a lot of McDonnell's plans for the British economy (mass nationalisation of public services, improved working conditions) are not possible inside the SM. we need to leave the SM for the Labour 2017 manifesto (which was HUGELY popular) to be a real thing.

personally, i'm 100% behind Corbyn on this.

[Noradin]

Norway has 20 times fewer people and produces twice the oil of UK. You don’t have the leverage on energy, which has a segnificant impact through all of your production. UK cannot be Norway...

In addition to that there are Norway's reservations about the UK joining EFTA, and as far as I understand it they can block it.
In that case getting a "deal like Norway" would turn quite a bit more expensive (for the UK that is) and time consuming, as they would have to create their own institutions.
So it might not even be viable as an temporary solution, because by the time it is up and running all the damage is done and the transition time would have elapsed.

[Acidbaron]

Who cares what UK politicians are crying about regarding another referendum, it's not like the EU is suddenly going to stop the brexit process.

You'll be kicked out first and than you can come back in minus all the previous benefits.

[Noradin]

You know, there's no need for a second referendum. They aren't binding, you can just ignore them.

Especially since the court ruled that if it had been binding it would have been invalid anyway.

Now the letter invoking Article 50?
That one is binding and valid.

[Noradin]

Floopa just so you know, these are the kinds of things that the EU would have happily negotiated with Labour to avert a Brexit if they were the party in power before the referendum. They did give further concessions to Cameron (it was just pointless). If it had been Corbyn seeking those concessions from the EU, maybe he would not have gotten everything he wanted, but he would have gotten some sort of solution because the EU always seeks compromise even when it came to much weaker parties than the UK.

With constant exposure to the FPTP everything seems binary, and any compromise looks like a loss.
That is the only explanation for the impression that the UK "never gets to have any say in the EU" many British claim to have.

I for one think that while it is unfortunate the UK decided to isolate themselves from Europe in this manner it might turn out a relief to be rid of FPTP and common law (mostly, RoI and Cyprus still have it, unfortunately). Both concepts clash with proportional representation and civil law respectively, concepts that are cornerstones of the EU and all its continental member states.

[Noradin]

That's honestly just ignorance. It's the UK that has kept the EU from having a common military policy, the UK that pressed for eastern expansion at the behest of the US. The EU has always been willing to give special deals to its members if they have had a specific issue that requires them to deviate on some policy within reason and has done so multiple times.
The fact that the people of the UK barely bother to vote for the EU parliament having the lowest attendance and many of their MPs don't even bother to show up to vote, especially from UKIP (I mean how disgusting and hyproctical is that? if they think there is something wrong with the EU parliament, shouldn't they at least show up?)

They are under the impression that their vote wouldn't make a difference because they are unlikely to win at FPTP in the European Parliament.
And yes, that is ignorance. Ignorance due to the fact that their system at home is so different from proportional representative democracy and that their own politicians and media outlets benefit from keeping them ignorant.

You can see this ignorance best when people claim the EU was "in-transparent", when it is in fact almost painfully transparent and open about everything it does. To the point that we got automated translation (like google translate) out of it because everything they do is not just published in one language, it is published in several languages. It produces an unprecedented number of legally equivalent translations for everything it does in an attempt to make itself transparent to all its citizens.

[JohnBrown1917]

Anyone with any knowledge of UK politics knows that the 3rd way is the only way that Labour will get re elected.

And thats the shitty route to go, and are they not ahead in the polls anyway?
Changing the whole idealogy of a party purely for votes is silly and ignores the whole point.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Would someone from England and honest help me here, I understand who Jeremy Corbyn is, but why was he supposed to call for another Brexit referendum, isn't that already settled?

[Elegiac]

Would someone from England and honest help me here, I understand who Jeremy Corbyn is, but why was he supposed to call for another Brexit referendum, isn't that already settled?

The "theory" is that because the Tory government is ostensibly the 'Leave' party, then Labour should be the 'Remain' party and should be championing the cause of a second referendum. The reality is that few Tories actually wanted Brexit, and the only reason a referendum was called under their watch was a failed gamble by Cameron to discredit the pro-Brexit camp, whereas Corbyn is known to be a closet Leaver because he believes the EU has resulted in a decline in fortune for working class Brits among other reasons.

So you've got a comedic situation where the party that initiated Brexit didn't want it to start with and the 'opposition' is led by someone who wanted Brexit from the outset.

[Doctor Amadeus]

The "theory" is that because the Tory government is ostensibly the 'Leave' party, then Labour should be the 'Remain' party and should be championing the cause of a second referendum. The reality is that few Tories actually wanted Brexit, and the only reason a referendum was called under their watch was a failed gamble by Cameron to discredit the pro-Brexit camp, whereas Corbyn is known to be a closet Leaver because he believes the EU has resulted in a decline in fortune for working class Brits among other reasons.

So you've got a comedic situation where the party that initiated Brexit didn't want it to start with and the 'opposition' is led by someone who wanted Brexit from the outset.

WOW, I thought Brexit was nearly done by now, didn't that vote happen near 2 years ago, when is it finished, or isn't going to be?

[Deleted]

And thats the shitty route to go, and are they not ahead in the polls anyway?
Changing the whole idealogy of a party purely for votes is silly and ignores the whole point.

They were ahead by I believe 1% last month, which is nothing when you factor in the "shy tory" effect.

They aren't changing the ideology of the party, they are making it electable.

It's called Realpolitik, and it's something you'd understand if you didn't subscribe to an extremist ideology like Communism.

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WOW, I thought Brexit was nearly done by now, didn't that vote happen near 2 years ago, when is it finished, or isn't going to be?

The referendum took place on the 23rd of June 2016, but Article 50 (that being the process by which the UK formally elects to withdraw from the European Union) wasn't triggered until the 29th of March 2017. Under Article 50 the UK has 2 years to disentangle itself from the EU, after which point it is formally removed from the European Union, which won't happen until March of 2019.

[rogueMatthias]

Would someone from England and honest help me here, I understand who Jeremy Corbyn is, but why was he supposed to call for another Brexit referendum, isn't that already settled?

Basically what happened is that in the last election, Momentum forgot that the UK election isn't a US election, so went completely overboard with all the propaganda. They painted Jeremy as a messianic figure, and May as an evil racist who hates the poor and was personally responsible for the Glenfall fire. They'd even say that the rest of Labour were "practically tories" and so somehow even all the bad policies made by Blair and Brown are now attributed to the Conservatives. Even the Iraq war.

But in doing so they caused two different Corbyns -

Jeremy Corbyn "Classic Edition" - Pro-Socialist. Well off public-schooler. Spent most of his life campaigning against.. well every single party in power anywhere who's not the underdog . Showed support for the IRA, and Hamas and Hezbollah before it was cool. Staunch eurosceptic that has spoken out against the EU regularly, calling it a neoliberal capitalist plot.

Jeremy Corbyn "Momentum Edition" - Charismatic working class hero, protector of the weak. Steals from the rich and gives to the poor. Brokers peace around the world, singlehandedly ending the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Spends his life fighting the evil racists, mysogynists, homophobes and elitists that make up the other parties! Stands up for... everything you do! Including Brexit, another vile Torie plot to destroy the country. He's so great, you'd have to be a proper racist or really hate the poor if you don't support him!

The two Corbyns are mutually exclusive in relation to their EU views. Momentum have helped campaign with the idea that Brexit is a Conservative plan they'll stand against, but at the same time anybody who knows anything about Corbyn knows his views. Corbyn has remained famously quiet on the matter this whole time, so not to rock the boat, and it's become an ongoing going joke about what Labours real policy is in this regards.

Corbyn saying that Labour wouldn't call a second referendum is really the first time he's made any statement on this and hinted at what his real views are on the subject.

[Mormolyce]

Especially since the court ruled that if it had been binding it would have been invalid anyway.

Now the letter invoking Article 50?
That one is binding and valid.

I believe it can be de-invoked though. The EU will make it so regardless...

[Omega10]

okay so for people who don't understand things, here is Labour's position:

73/27 of Labour voters are remain/leave, compared to 39/61 of Conservative voters who are remain/leave.

those 27% of Labour voters are all voters in traditional working class areas in the North, they will switch to Tory though if Labour go soft on Brexit. The 39% remain vote on the other hand wont switch to Labour because of the type of Labour leader it is (hence why polling puts Labour roughly 41-42% and Conservative 39-40% right now, despite the Conservative party actually fucking every aspect of our country up).

the way to win the argument is by voting it down in parliament. the EU withdrawal bill has it's 3rd vote this week, it's hjigh likely to pass (the Tory rebels which voted it down at 2nd reading are now appeased) and then it goes to Lords. if it fails to pass, there will be a GE. later on in the year, we'll have the final "take it or leave it" vote in parliament re: eu trade deal, if that gets voted down (highly likely) there will be a GE.

Labour are purposely obfuscating the situation because they will win a GE should 1 get called this year. not only that, but Labour's leaving of the eu would be to stay in CU, leave SM, abide by ECHR but not CJEU. if we stay in the single market, a lot of McDonnell's plans for the British economy (mass nationalisation of public services, improved working conditions) are not possible inside the SM. we need to leave the SM for the Labour 2017 manifesto (which was HUGELY popular) to be a real thing.

personally, i'm 100% behind Corbyn on this.

You are suggesting that Brexit will NOT happen afterall? If I understand what you are saying here, I seem to be hearing:

The referendum has nothing to do with Brexit being passed - it was advisory only.
Parliament has failed twice to pass Brexit - this is the real deal. Or it would be if it passed.
You seem to be saying there are a few more hurdles to pass for it to actually take effect, and you are predicting that it will fail one of these hurdles, that this will kill Brexit pretty much permanently, and that a General Election will be called soon after due to the "vote of no confidence?" ???

Is this a possibility, and am I understanding you correctly?