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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    Germany never had a great navy tbh. The Kaiser tried to build one prior to WW1 (to rival the British) but it simply never worked for them.
    Well, we - in 2018 - still pay the taxes that were introduced with the explicit purpose of building that Imperial Navy.

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Ravenblade's Avatar
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    I think the title of this posting is misleading. It should be German "management" at its finest because I am pretty sure the engineering itself is fine but the ones in charge of getting the pieces together are not.

    To this day the German military and management of civilian megaprojects have been subject of mockery, concern and widespread criticism in German media and among the population itself, to the point of indulging in black humour about it.

    Seriously though the problem lies with the fact that people in administrations are merely arranged around instead of new minds being promoted based on their concepts and vision. You have the same people who were disastrously managing their resorts for years now disastrously managing or "maintaining" their newly assigned resort. You know when the Bundeswehr has to use ADAC helicopters i.e. the one of Germany's biggest car owner club instead of their own that something isn't right. Gone are the days of old politicians like Helmut Schmidt who reformed the Bundeswehr into a modern army, instead we are racing for budget pluses and other nonsense.

    Nailing it all to the refugee crisis would be a very childish thing to do since the management of said crisis happened within the same mindset. It was just another piece to the puzzle.
    Last edited by Ravenblade; 2018-01-15 at 11:23 AM.
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  3. #23
    I'd also go as far as saying German über efficiancy and management are a myth of the past. The kind of Prussian spirit isn't really there any more but engineering is still top level.

    The German millitary hase been cannibalized over the past decades and the budget was cut further and further. The outcome is that we have only like 4 (FOUR !?) working fighter jets left in the fleet. It has gone so far that most Germans themself think that their own army is a joke. Rheinmetall and others produce nice and advanced weapons/technology but the country / government of origin doesn't care for its army. It's kind of sad.

    In any elected administration it seems that the defense secretary hits a brick wall when he/she addresses problems and begs for more investments and a general overhaul. Two defense secretaries prior to the actual one resigned before the end of their term...
    Last edited by Raakel; 2018-01-15 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoronic View Post
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...MwV?li=BBnb7Kz

    BERLIN—Germany’s naval brass in 2005 dreamed up a warship that could ferry marines into combat anywhere in the world, go up against enemy ships and stay away from home ports for two years with a crew half the size of its predecessor’s.

    First delivered for sea trials in 2016 after a series of delays, the 7,000-ton Baden-Württemberg frigate was determined last month to have an unexpected design flaw: It doesn’t really work.

    Defense experts cite the warship’s buggy software and ill-considered arsenal—as well as what was until recently its noticeable list to starboard—as symptoms of deeper, more intractable problems: Shrinking military expertise and growing confusion among German leaders about what the country’s armed forces are for.

    A litany of bungled infrastructure projects has tarred Germany’s reputation for engineering prowess. There is still no opening date for Berlin’s new €6 billion ($7.2 billion) airport, which is already 10 years behind schedule, and the redesign of Stuttgart’s railway station remains stalled more than a decade after work on the project started. Observers have blamed these mishaps on poor planning and project management, which also figured in major setbacks for several big military projects.

    But experts say military efforts have also been hampered by the lack of a strategic vision for Germany’s armed forces, resulting in vague, hard-to-execute briefs. Before the frigate project foundered, a contract to build a new helicopter hit snags, costs for a new rifle overran and an ambitious drone project simply failed to get off the ground.

    German military procurement is “one hell of a complete disaster,” said Christian Mölling, a defense-industry expert at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin. “It will take years to sort this problem out.”

    Get news and analysis on politics, policy, national security and more, delivered right to your inbox

    The naval fiasco, on a project with a €3 billion price tag, is particularly startling since Europe’s largest exporter relies on open and secure shipping lanes to transport its goods.

    The F-125 frigate program was supposed to deliver Germany’s four largest military ships of the postwar era, fitted with cutting-edge software allowing high operability with a skeleton crew.

    But after the ship failed sea trials last month, naval officials refused to commission it. The German Navy said the Baden-Württemberg’s central computer system—the design centerpiece allowing it to sail with a smaller crew—didn’t pass necessary tests. The Kieler Nachrichten, a daily in the German Baltic fleet’s home port of Kiel, has reported problems with its radar, electronics and the flameproof coating on its fuel tanks. The vessel was also found to list to the starboard, a flaw a project spokesman says has been corrected. The Baden-Württemberg is now set to return to port next week for an “extended period,” the navy said.

    A spokesman for Thyssenkrupp, the lead company on the project, said it still planned to deliver the ship this year. “The frigate-class 125 is a newly designed, technically sophisticated ship with highly complex new developments—including new technologies,” the spokesman said. “Delays can never be completely ruled out.”

    A spokesman for the military procurement office said it was levying financial penalties from Thyssenkrupp for late delivery, but he declined to provide further details.

    Even if the ship can be fixed, however, some naval experts worry it would struggle to defend itself against terrorist groups supplied with antiship missiles. And in the face of a Russian naval buildup in the Baltic Sea, it lacks its predecessor’s sonar and torpedo tubes, making it a sitting duck for submarines.

    Those failings, they say, result from Germany’s military brass never settling on a defined brief for the vessel.

    When planning began in 2003, naval staff wanted an all-rounder that could tangle with Russian destroyers in the Baltic and serve as a base for humanitarian missions in tropical waters. Then, in 2005, they decided the ship didn’t need all of its predecessor’s heavy weaponry and should focus more on attacking enemies on land, including by ferrying marines into combat. Given Russia’s aggressive stance in the Baltic Sea, naval experts say that now appears to have been a miscalculation. The ship’s great weight—already almost twice that of the frigate model it is replacing—makes adding further weapons very difficult.

    “These problems stem from Germany not having a strategic vision for its military,” said Ronja Kempin, defense-industry expert at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin.

    Defense experts say the frigate fiasco also shows the navy, German military engineers and the government’s defense-procurement body, after years without big projects to manage, has lost the expertise to bring these to fruition.

    “Too complicated, too ambitious, too badly managed.” Marcel Dickow, a weapons-procurement expert at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin, said of the frigate. “They threw money at the project without thinking it through.”

    The spokesman for Germany’s military procurement office said while the ship project posed an “enormous challenge” for the contractors, ​its design specifications were “unambiguous and precise.” He added that the contractors have to solve outstanding problems with the vessel. “The [German military] will not take over the ship until all acceptance trials have been successfully completed,” he said.

    German military spending is now rising rapidly to meet the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s agreed commitment of 2% of gross domestic product. The defense budget is set to climb to €38.5 billion in 2018 from €37 billion in 2017 and €35.1 billion in 2016.

    But this growth follows years of fiscal attrition that have degraded the government’s capacity to manage ambitious military projects. And while German firms like Heckler & Koch AG and Rheinmetall are market leaders in rifles, tanks and howitzers, competence in larger, more complex systems has eroded during the lean years.

    ”There’s a whole generation of German engineers who haven’t worked on a major defense project,” said Mr. Mölling, the defense expert. “It’s not that they lost this skill; they never learned it.”

    Engineering graduates shun weapons manufacturers in favor of “sexier” employers like conglomerate Siemens AG or car maker BMW AG, which offer better pay and career prospects, according to Mr. Mölling.

    Likewise, defense companies have failed to attract the graduates needed to develop sophisticated new systems that are increasingly centered on software, said Sandro Gaycken, a director at the European School of Management and Technology in Berlin.

    Berlin could have bought warships from U.S., U.K. or French shipyards, but the government chose German bidders to buoy employment at German shipyards, according to Ms. Kempin, the defense expert.

    Kiel-based naval engineer Lothar Dannenberg, who wasn’t involved directly in the frigate project, blamed its failures largely on what he said was the incompetence of the procurement office. “We were left shaking our heads,” he said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    i hear they make a decent car though
    Unlike US engineering that seems to be doing so we-... oh. Bummer huh?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Raakel View Post
    In any elected administration it seems that the defense secretary hits a brick wall when he/she addresses problems and begs for more investments and a general overhaul. Two defense secretaries prior to the actual one resigned before the end of their term...
    Because examples like this make it obvious that throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away.

  6. #26
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    All the computer scientists and nuclear physicists from Syria payed out for Germany it seems.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiro Tagachi View Post
    All the computer scientists and nuclear physicists from Syria payed out for Germany it seems.
    YES! Because THIS is a problem caused by refugees.

    Fucking kill me right now pls

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humpty Doo View Post
    Gone are the Days when the Germans built beautiful Battleships like the Bismark.


    German warships were indeed quite beautiful to look at; sleek, symmetric, deadly looking. Almost as if their lines were somehow inspired by medieval cathedrals.

    Quote Originally Posted by StayTuned View Post
    YES! Because THIS is a problem caused by refugees.
    While it might or might not be related, do you think these refugees will ever help to fix problems of any kind?

    Fucking kill me right now pls
    Where did you live again...?

    /s

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoronic View Post
    First delivered for sea trials in 2016 after a series of delays, the 7,000-ton Baden-Württemberg frigate was determined last month to have an unexpected design flaw: It doesn’t really work.
    Oh heavens that is one hell of a design flaw.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    The Germans are well known for craftsmanship. I own a German made .357 mag revolver, which rivals Smith & Wesson, at half the cost.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by StayTuned View Post
    YES! Because THIS is a problem caused by economic migrants.

    Fucking kill me right now pls
    Fixed your typo.

    Well, the government does have to spend a metric shitton of money to take care of the incoming people (whatever they are). All the censorship and generally keeping media silent probably also isn't free and neither is supporting all the 'nonprofit' organizations that are trying to convince the working middle class that having bunch of economic migrants with completely different mentality and values as their neighbors is a good idea.

    Having to sanitize Geece TWICE just to keep their own currency afloat probably also didn't help to keep the military well funded. And considering Germany isn't waging war on anyone really, cutting military budget only makes sense

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Ravenblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    While it might or might not be related, do you think these refugees will ever help to fix problems of any kind?
    The refugee issue is injected and completely unrelated. Answering your question would mean going offtopic and since you are asking the question, consider what status a human has got to do with its potential.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    The Germans are well known for craftsmanship. I own a German made .357 mag revolver, which rivals Smith & Wesson, at half the cost.
    Korth Combat revolver?

  14. #34
    Wow, it took literally one post.

  15. #35
    It's not really a frigate, its a destroyer.
    The Germans just decided to call it a "frigate" for some reason, but that is not what it is designed to be.

  16. #36
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    Korth Combat revolver?
    Nope. EAA Windicator. A very fine shooting firearm. Strong, smooth action, accurate. Can be bought here for around 270 - 300 dollars. A similair Smith & Wesson would cost 450 - 700. And I like Smith & Wesson firearms. Have a revolver made by them which is .38 cal. special.

  17. #37
    I can imagine the best minds do not want to go into engineering, medicine or science. They want to go into things where they will make more money like hedge-fund management, stocks and banking. I seen an interview with a physics professor at Cal Tech who was telling his students that only 25% of them would work in physics. He then said how most of them well get jobs with stock brokers thinking up algorithms for investments and things like that.

  18. #38
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    Ahh so many gentlemen here who appreciate the beauty of weapons! And let me assure you, they are most beautiful when they do what they can best and en mass!
    Last edited by mmocc9b2dcdfec; 2018-01-15 at 04:32 PM.

  19. #39
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naadir View Post
    Ahh so many gentlemen here who appreciate the beauty of weapons! And let me assure you, they are most beautiful when they do what they can best and en mass!
    They are good tools in the right hands. Nasty ones in the wrong hands. But it took arms to defeat Germany during WW2.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    They are good tools in the right hands. Nasty ones in the wrong hands. But it took arms to defeat Germany during WW2.
    Oh it's the same with everything. You can murder people with famous pictures in their frame! Doesn't change their beauty but in this case their purpose is to be beautiful when they do what they are made for! And it doesn't matter... the blood will always be red and the ruins always be pulverized no matter what. They are god at the hands of humans, they don't discriminate!

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