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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Von Bosch View Post
    If i feel like insulting someone i should have every right to do so thats a freedom wich must not be taken away, however asshole and dickish you might find this is the only way to make sure we dont go into a spiral of censoring and banning everything that might be even slightly offending.

    I mean for fucks sake grow a thicker skin.
    I don't think that's not true at all. We don't have to allow the extreme, to ensure that we don't end up with the opposite extreme. There's a middle way for most things, which are fair compromises. Also, there is a lot of "freedom of speech" that's not just calling people cunts online, but rather hate campaigns with people sending actual threats.
    "U suck, bitch" = ok.
    "I will come to your house in Blablah Street and rape you to death" = not ok.

    Nobody, not even on the farthest left point of the hippie scale, is suggesting that we need laws that will force you to be nice, polite and sensitive when talking to others.
    Mother pus bucket!

  2. #62
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karrotlord View Post
    I wasn't referring to the amount of expression but whether or not someone chooses to be trans or it's an innate part of them. Where that push or pull for any expression at all comes from.

    I've been wondering about that for awhile now. Mainly in the is gender biological or a social construct terms. That's what the other posters were referring to. To me at least, calling gender a construct takes away from the validity of trans people. Not saying anyone can't decide their own level expression, but every trans person I've personally met has said it's much deeper and more involved than just "deciding." As for social dysphoria, I've never heard of that before and have no idea what it is. But anyway, this is a bit off topic and I probably shouldn't have jumped in.
    What I'm saying is it's kind of both. I would argue that biology can (but not always) push people into the socially accepted roles of the sex they identify with. It's why social dysphoria is a thing. It's a profound discomfort with having to align with the social roles and expectations of a gender you're assigned. It's also why it's so shitty when making fun of non passing trans people because, usually, they're actively trying, and you're (general "you") mocking someone for seeking comfort in their own skin and society. The result is profound depression, anxiety about going out, and, ultimately, isolation and avoidance.

    I'm not discounting physical dysphoria, either. It exists, absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Bosch View Post
    If i feel like insulting someone i should have every right to do so thats a freedom wich must not be taken away, however asshole and dickish you might find this is the only way to make sure we dont go into a spiral of censoring and banning everything that might be even slightly offending.

    I mean for fucks sake grow a thicker skin.
    And if you believe this then I would guess you're okay suffering the social consequences of it.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by halloaa View Post
    How am i trying to silence anyone? People are allowed to say whatever stupid shit they want, but just dont force me to agree with you.
    You're trying to silence people by saying "PC is <bad attribute>", thus delegitimizing anyone who tells you to start a discussion with actual arguments rather than blanket statements like "PC is <bad attribute>".

    It's pretty neat, actually. Quite the reversal. We get it, you don't like someone telling you off. Neither do I. And god knows I like to cuss me some ethnicities when they almost crash into me in traffic. But that's not the point. The point is that PC in itself is not <bad attribute> (I'm keeping this in brackets, btw, because you're not the only one ranting against PC with a weak ass invention of an argument, so this goes for anyone not spending more than 2s on why they actually hate PC). It's just PC, phrase your shit differently and you can have the same sort of discussion.

    People who rant against PC are usually the people that actually can't have a decent conversation with actual arguments. There's a reason why so many people resort to insults and mud flinging contests instead of arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macaquerie View Post
    If you believe that sex is purely biological, then implicitly you are denying trans people the right to express their gender identity in the way that they choose. Wouldn't that make you the PC thug?
    Actually, sex is biological. Their gender is a social thing and nature really doesn't give a shit if you think you're a woman or not. If you gots no uterus and all the other jazz) your biological function, being the female breed machine, is not going to work. No matter how much you want it.

    Doesn't mean one should go and rub that in people's faces all the time. Well, as long as they don't rub their gender fetish in my face. If they do, all gloves are off and I'll happily tell them in colourful language just how little I care about their personal issues.
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  4. #64
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Actually, sex is biological. Their gender is a social thing and nature really doesn't give a shit if you think you're a woman or not. If you gots no uterus and all the other jazz) your biological function, being the female breed machine, is not going to work. No matter how much you want it.

    Doesn't mean one should go and rub that in people's faces all the time. Well, as long as they don't rub their gender fetish in my face. If they do, all gloves are off and I'll happily tell them in colourful language just how little I care about their personal issues.
    And herein lies why this sort of discussion is banned on these forums. We get a lay interpretation of gender designed specifically around excluding trans people while ignoring a wealth of biological and scientific data. On top of that it's a "fetish" that erases intersex people and ignores that the brain is, itself, a biological organ.

    Read WPATH, dude.

  5. #65
    The Lightbringer fengosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Bosch View Post
    If i feel like insulting someone i should have every right to do so thats a freedom wich must not be taken away, however asshole and dickish you might find this is the only way to make sure we dont go into a spiral of censoring and banning everything that might be even slightly offending.

    I mean for fucks sake grow a thicker skin.
    I'm taking this from a Canadian law perspective where I have the right to criticize my employees as long as it's constructive in nature and aimed to correct improper behaviour. I can't insult my employees and in all fairness you shouldn't be doing it anyways since that would be horrible for morale.

    I'm not even sure this is about political correctness it's more about not being a dick.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Von Bosch View Post
    If i feel like insulting someone i should have every right to do so thats a freedom wich must not be taken away, however asshole and dickish you might find this is the only way to make sure we dont go into a spiral of censoring and banning everything that might be even slightly offending.

    I mean for fucks sake grow a thicker skin.
    At least in the US, where we seem to have the most people complaining about PC, people have the right to be as insulting as they want.

    But everyone else has the right to criticize and/or ostracize assholes. Which seems to be the crux of the issue: assholes want to be assholes *without the social consequences.* If anti-PC people can't deal with backlash, they should grow a thicker skin.
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    There are no 2 species that are 100% identical.
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    can you leftist twits just fucking admit that quantum mechanics has fuck all to do with thermodynamics, that shit is just a pose?

  7. #67
    In Trump land living in reality isn't being politically correct.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGoldSharpie View Post
    And herein lies why this sort of discussion is banned on these forums. We get a lay interpretation of gender designed specifically around excluding trans people while ignoring a wealth of biological and scientific data. On top of that it's a "fetish" that erases intersex people and ignores that the brain is, itself, a biological organ.

    Read WPATH, dude.
    You are proving those anti-PC people right, btw. Just in case you didn't notice what this topic is about.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    It would help to clarify, That political correctness used to be called basic human decency. People trying to subvert that, are just nihilist trolls.

    Turning political correctness into a bad thing has to be one of the greatest arguments made in bad faith in history. Right up there with slavery being a good thing.
    Why should we allow the subversion of 'decency'? What an old-fashioned conservative sentiment. Political correctness used to mean not questioning god, religion, the king, the state, not engaging in profanity or the display or even reference to sexuality, the implication that other races have human rights, the implication that women should have equal rights to men, etc...

    PC has more nuanced and sinister roots than you claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloaa View Post
    PC is really just persecution for wrongthink. You think there is such a thing as biological sex? Nazi transphobe!
    Doubt it. If all you claim is "sex is biological" then you really won't get this reaction.

    I'd speculate the claims of transphobia are from derogatory remarks added on to this.

  10. #70
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You are proving those anti-PC people right, btw. Just in case you didn't notice what this topic is about.
    Not really. I'm offering a correction. Anti-PC people are going to trash trans people anyway. I generally like your posts, so I offered you a resource on the issue.

  11. #71
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You're trying to silence people by saying "PC is <bad attribute>", thus delegitimizing anyone who tells you to start a discussion with actual arguments rather than blanket statements like "PC is <bad attribute>".

    It's pretty neat, actually. Quite the reversal. We get it, you don't like someone telling you off. Neither do I. And god knows I like to cuss me some ethnicities when they almost crash into me in traffic. But that's not the point. The point is that PC in itself is not <bad attribute> (I'm keeping this in brackets, btw, because you're not the only one ranting against PC with a weak ass invention of an argument, so this goes for anyone not spending more than 2s on why they actually hate PC). It's just PC, phrase your shit differently and you can have the same sort of discussion.

    People who rant against PC are usually the people that actually can't have a decent conversation with actual arguments. There's a reason why so many people resort to insults and mud flinging contests instead of arguments.
    You'd have a point if PC wasn't a <bad attribute> by definition. Specifically, it's a disparaging pejorative for some excessive moral enforcement.
    It doesn't heed a rant. Or hate. Or a strong or weak intervention. It's just <bad> by design.

    Opposing PC is the only normal stance. And no decent conversation can form without accepting that it is bad.
    How bad, who is using it, what political bias it enforces, the politico-cultural context, etc. are the nuanced questions.

    Of course an excessive, or ridiculous, opposition to PC is also <some bad attribute>; that's a given. But rebuttals can't start from denying reality: PC actually is bad.

  12. #72
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    Of course an excessive, or ridiculous, opposition to PC is also <some bad attribute>; that's a given. But rebuttals can't start from denying reality: PC actually is bad.
    See, I disagree between the lines. All-to-often being anti-PC is a harassment tool. It's used excessively to silence people online or to undermine the basic fact that everyone deserves some amount of respect out in the world.

    There simply are enough people who are in a shaky enough position in life that being pushed into a debate isn't at all healthy and calling them out is just rude.

  13. #73
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis View Post
    At least in the US, where we seem to have the most people complaining about PC, people have the right to be as insulting as they want.

    But everyone else has the right to criticize and/or ostracize assholes. Which seems to be the crux of the issue: assholes want to be assholes *without the social consequences.* If anti-PC people can't deal with backlash, they should grow a thicker skin.
    When this "debate" was a thing last time, it was aligned politically in the opposite way. Instead of being insulting, they wanted to be transgressive, and question the status quo or something. And wanted to be praised for their unorthodoxy, instead of criticized.

    And thus the wheel keeps turning, as newer power groups develop conservative stances.

    I think it's a beautiful aspect of humanity. In a way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGoldSharpie View Post
    See, I disagree between the lines. All-to-often being anti-PC is a harassment tool. It's used excessively to silence people online or to undermine the basic fact that everyone deserves some amount of respect out in the world.

    There simply are enough people who are in a shaky enough position in life that being pushed into a debate isn't at all healthy and calling them out is just rude.
    I agree wholeheartedly. It's all in the qualifiers.
    Mocking PC behaviour may be fun. But some people take that attitude way too far and end up hurting people. We ultimately can't have nice things.

  14. #74
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGoldSharpie View Post
    See, I disagree between the lines. All-to-often being anti-PC is a harassment tool. It's used excessively to silence people online or to undermine the basic fact that everyone deserves some amount of respect out in the world.

    There simply are enough people who are in a shaky enough position in life that being pushed into a debate isn't at all healthy and calling them out is just rude.
    Thank you for wording this so nicely. I think you hit the nail. Extreme PC just for the sake of it is bad and in my opinion disruptive. That doesn't mean you have to go full circle and insult everybody. It feels a bit like some people are using the "anti-pc" as an excuse to insult without consequence.

    Anybody up for legalizing duels again?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGoldSharpie View Post
    Not really. I'm offering a correction. Anti-PC people are going to trash trans people anyway. I generally like your posts, so I offered you a resource on the issue.
    I don't know what WPATH is, nor do I actually have an interest in diving deeper into the topic, as you can tell perhaps. I'm really just here to point out that PC or anti-PC is really just a proxy for the debate on how to be a decent human being. Some label it as PC, some label it as manners. But in the end, if you're a decent human being, you probably won't get into conflict with other decent human beings.

    Hum, having said that... I think the whole PC idea is probably created as a guideline for people that don't know how to behave themselves properly in the first place. Interesting notion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    You'd have a point if PC wasn't a <bad attribute> by definition. Specifically, it's a disparaging pejorative for some excessive moral enforcement.
    It doesn't heed a rant. Or hate. Or a strong or weak intervention. It's just <bad> by design.

    Opposing PC is the only normal stance. And no decent conversation can form without accepting that it is bad.
    How bad, who is using it, what political bias it enforces, the politico-cultural context, etc. are the nuanced questions.

    Of course an excessive, or ridiculous, opposition to PC is also <some bad attribute>; that's a given. But rebuttals can't start from denying reality: PC actually is bad.
    The normal stance for me is to ignore the whole PC and anti-PC discussion. I'm not particularily PC, nor am I absolutely against PC. I simply think it's ridiculous to support either side 100%. People that have strong opinions do get emotional and sometimes they have a point in saying politically incorrect things. The key is to not label them as PC or not-PC. The point is to look at what they're saying and see if there's an actual grain of truth in it that needs to be addressed. PC and not-PC are really just shoeboxes for people to sort social interactions into because they can't deal with looking closely at things they see.

    I may be simplifying it, or overly complicating it. Or both at the same time. But the point remains, the whole PC trend comes from one corner of the world and that corner has a history of being hypocrits about things.

    As for your point about no decent conversation can be had where PC is involved, I disagree. You can have any, literally, any conversation while staying PC at the same time. What you can't have is a conversation that is indecent while staying PC. But then, I really don't have the patience to entertain a conversation with someone yelling at me about how evil Muslims are, because they're all terrorists or similar nonsense.

    Let's agree to meet in the middle, where normal people reside and scoff about the ridiculous notion that Christmas shouldn't be called Christmas, because it's discriminating against other religions. Or that Anyone not celebrating Christmas is a terrorist. How's that sound?
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  16. #76
    I view PC as having just a tiny amount of empathy when forming your sentences. For me, it is a 4 step process:

    "Is the statement I am about to make going to be considered offensive by the person I am speaking to? Would a reasonable person be offended by the same statement? Can I make the same point in a different, non-offensive way? If not, is this an important point I should make regardless?"

    Some people are incredibly overly PC. I probably wouldn't spend much time talking to those people, because I'm not interested in navigating a minefield of microaggressions. I would be polite and cordial, but I would not engage in substantive discussion when I think I am likely to offend (even without intending to) the other person, because that will not be productive for anyone involved.

    Some people are incredibly anti-PC. I probably wouldn't spend much time talking to those people, because I'm not interested in parsing a coherent statement out of a word salad of insults and stereotypes. I would be polite and cordial, but I would not engage in substantive discussion when I think I am likely to be extremely irritated by the other person, because that will not be productive for anyone involved.
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