Crusader strike in vanilla ( old version) to fix paladin dps/tanking

[Ulthane]

To the comments saying: So you don't want to play vanilla?

Lets be quite frank: For a time in vanilla Retribution had access to Crusader Strike and Holy Strike. In addition to this we had Blessing of Kings instead of Repentance.

But people are like: no, cant have that. That's not vanilla.

Me: Um... yes it is, just a different patch version of it.

SO this raises a bigger question: IS vanilla defined by 1.12? Or why do we not take the best aspects of every spec and class that existed throughout vanilla and represent them? (Given Reck bomb should not be a thing) So yes, give me the Crusader Strike/Holy Strike pls

[Xecks]

Yes, you would be disappointed and angry. Guess how I feel right now. Seems like you're just saying 'my opinion is more valid than yours because we would be disappointed and angry, while you're just sad and whining'.

your opinion is valid. but theyve stated the design direction as being as close to vanilla as possible.
also have you been lobbying for vanilla servers for almost 9 years? cause thats what the people who got this thing passed. they are the ones who blizzard is siding with.
im sorry you are hurt by that but thats how things are.

- - - Updated - - -

To the comments saying: So you don't want to play vanilla?

Lets be quite frank: For a time in vanilla Retribution had access to Crusader Strike and Holy Strike. In addition to this we had Blessing of Kings instead of Repentance.

But people are like: no, cant have that. That's not vanilla.

Me: Um... yes it is, just a different patch version of it.

SO this raises a bigger question: IS vanilla defined by 1.12? Or why do we not take the best aspects of every spec and class that existed throughout vanilla and represent them? (Given Reck bomb should not be a thing) So yes, give me the Crusader Strike/Holy Strike pls

it was removed before live hit.

[Thimagryn]

your opinion is valid. but theyve stated the design direction as being as close to vanilla as possible.
also have you been lobbying for vanilla servers for almost 9 years?

Yes I have, and I signed the petition going around. I'm one of the few who refuse to play on illegal servers too because I want official servers. I've been against the Cata Talent changes from the very beginning, and I stopped playing (continuously) at the end of Cata. I only come back for a month when expansions are finished to do the content or do some random PVP/achievement hunting. The rewards in retail are only time-gated rather than effort-based. That's why I want Vanilla back.

Again, the reason I want changes are because I know certain outcomes from my own experiences in Vanilla. The data I've seen from private servers only supports what I say, despite anyone saying X or Y is viable (because I also know that those players are the exceptions who are not playing in a general pug/social setting).

If they are going to make Vanilla as close as possible, then we already know that hybrids will not be viable for many months until they reach their Talent revamp patch. Even leveling up, certain hybrids were left in the dust until their revamps made it viable. When you say they are good at X or Y outside of Raids, it's likely that you're referring to a patch after the revamp, because before that you were not very versatile because of the way certain stats worked and the lack of gear that had those stats available.

You are arguing for a 1:1 Vanilla WoW that doesn't affect you because (I assume) you never played a Hybrid in vanilla and only assume that since you had friends who didn't complain that it must have been perfectly fine. I'm fine with you wanting that, but you can't point and say that because you observed your friends topping charts at some point in Vanilla that your idea of a 1:1 Vanilla is what I want too. I don't want to have to late-adopt Vanilla WoW just because my preferred class/spec is not viable in the release patch.

Fact is, what we want doesn't exist in Vanilla until the latest patches, yet arguably the latest patches will mess up early content. There should be a better way to address balance and content rollout without forgoing the 'vanilla experience'. Honestly, if Ret was given a new button, what would affect you? Aside from principle.

[stomination]

And they all said you guys all agreed on how you wanted classic.


This is worst than flying and no flying.

[Xecks]

Yes I have, and I signed the petition going around. I'm one of the few who refuse to play on illegal servers too because I want official servers. I've been against the Cata Talent changes from the very beginning, and I stopped playing (continuously) at the end of Cata. I only come back for a month when expansions are finished to do the content or do some random PVP/achievement hunting. The rewards in retail are only time-gated rather than effort-based. That's why I want Vanilla back.

Again, the reason I want changes are because I know certain outcomes from my own experiences in Vanilla. The data I've seen from private servers only supports what I say, despite anyone saying X or Y is viable (because I also know that those players are the exceptions who are not playing in a general pug/social setting).

If they are going to make Vanilla as close as possible, then we already know that hybrids will not be viable for many months until they reach their Talent revamp patch. Even leveling up, certain hybrids were left in the dust until their revamps made it viable. When you say they are good at X or Y outside of Raids, it's likely that you're referring to a patch after the revamp, because before that you were not very versatile because of the way certain stats worked and the lack of gear that had those stats available.

You are arguing for a 1:1 Vanilla WoW that doesn't affect you because (I assume) you never played a Hybrid in vanilla and only assume that since you had friends who didn't complain that it must have been perfectly fine. I'm fine with you wanting that, but you can't point and say that because you observed your friends topping charts at some point in Vanilla that your idea of a 1:1 Vanilla is what I want too.

Fact is, what we want doesn't exist in Vanilla until the latest patches, yet arguably the latest patches will mess up early content. There should be a better way to address balance and content rollout without forgoing the 'vanilla experience'. Honestly, if Ret was given a new button, what would affect you? Aside from principle.

aside from principal pvp vs pallies on my warrior was awful already. much less them with an extra button that did more dmg.

the patches existed in vanilla. as long as its vanilla its fine. the patch can be any of them. i dont care. they were viable at some point in vanilla. i saw it with my own eyes.thats the beauty of it. we can discuss which patch and what iteration of vanilla we want all day. i wouldnt mind. i just want vanilla as in any of the patches or combination of patches that there were IN vanilla.

[Thimagryn]

aside from principal pvp vs pallies on my warrior was awful already. much less them with an extra button that did more dmg.

the patches existed in vanilla. as long as its vanilla its fine. the patch can be any of them. i dont care. they were viable at some point in vanilla. i saw it with my own eyes.thats the beauty of it. we can discuss which patch and what iteration of vanilla we want all day. i wouldnt mind. i just want vanilla as in any of the patches or combination of patches that there were IN vanilla.

Them having another button changes nothing. You're still gonna have a hard time fighting Pallies in PVP because they're dangerous in Melee. The only way you counter them is with another class. That's how Vanilla PVP balance worked back then. My mage buddy could never out-DPS my Druid because I could tank any burst in bear and stun/heal full and reset the fight. That extra button doesn't make a difference to your Warrior any more than the later patches for Pally removed the RNG and made their damage more consistent.

[Xecks]

Them having another button changes nothing. You're still gonna have a hard time fighting Pallies in PVP because they're dangerous in Melee. The only way you counter them is with another class. That's how Vanilla PVP balance worked back then. My mage buddy could never out-DPS my Druid because I could tank any burst in bear and stun/heal full and reset the fight. That extra button doesn't make a difference to your Warrior any more than the later patches for Pally removed the RNG and made their damage more consistent.

i actually had a 40% win rate vs pallies on my war.

[Thimagryn]

i actually had a 40% win rate vs pallies on my war.

A number that likely fluxuated over the course of Vanilla and depended on which patch and iteration you were playing. There was no static version of Vanilla and balance changes were massive back then. Class patches were overhauls. '40% winrate vs Pallies' isn't very meaningful when you can't identify your win rate with any given patch to show a clear result of performance vs patch balance.

[Xecks]

A number that likely fluxuated over the course of Vanilla and depended on which patch and iteration you were playing. There was no static version of Vanilla and balance changes were massive back then. Class patches were overhauls. '40% winrate vs Pallies' isn't very meaningful when you can't identify your win rate with any given patch to show a clear result of performance vs patch balance.

true. i will say a prot pally with a shield vs an arms war was hellish. couldnt beat one who was using a blacksmith hammer .

[Loxotron]

I was thinking about giving paladins the old crusader strike. why?
Well if we are going with the 1.12 talents, all paladins except holy paladins are screwed(reck good for pvp).
Like in early vanilla paladin was a great class, able to tank, dps and heal, but as soon as talents got reworked
and aq gear got into the game paladins got really screwed, while all others got buffs paladins basically got nerfed.
Retri lost its reason to be in raid(blessing of kings) and alot of other changes like nerfing of seal of command and seals in general.
Protection paladins got screwed because they increased mana costs of seals and made prot paladins use spell dmg gear instead of warrior gear
(they removed seal of fury and replaced it with Righteous fury (self buff, but only holy dmg)).

Old Crusader strike would solve both of these issues because then you could spam it to trigger seals and gain mana from SoW JoW, so by seal twisting you would get much better game play. (Old crusader strike worked like the one in scarlet monastery)

If you think this will break pvp, well lets compare to shamans main abilities in 1.12.
They have ghost wolf(can be instant with NS)
Slow, FS and earth bind
Ground and silence for 20 mana(earth shock rank 1)
Stormstrike and WF (wf better than seal of command)
Purge

Paladin has
Aura same as shaman totems, just better
Blessings vs wf and str totem
Stun(very strong, but can be resisted)
Bubble
Seals
Blessing of sacrifce and protection (Almost OP, but can be dispelled)
Blessing of freedom (Free action points potion solves this)

You could argue that retri paladins have more mana sustain with heal, but in later patches any class will get you to 50% in a second, even retri vs retri
healing is often not the best move.
(Paladins are very strong in early content and in end game gear, but sucks in between, and 70% of the content is in between)

Basically as paladin is the easiest class to kite and interupt it should hurt when a paladin comes close to you.

Maybe I just love paladin too much and should just roll a shaman and wait for tbc, but i think the old crusader strike would let us have paladin dps all the way to naxx and paladin tanks in until aq40.

Source: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.1.0
Old paladin spells: https://web.archive.org/web/20050219....cgi?c=Paladin

Adding such abilities can break the pvp balance a lot, retri paladins in the right +crit gear were already powerful enough and if you add extra instant attack, i dont see how it will be fair at any level. Have you seen the tbc prepatch with retri crusader strike? It was stupidly OP.

[GreenJesus]

I love people treat vanilla like it is the Son of God and daring to even suggest ANYTHING leads to blasphemy and impurity. Get over yourselves. Why does "Classic" even have its own discussion thread on MMochamp if you can't even discuss anything in it?

[Charge me Doctor]

I love people treat vanilla like it is the Son of God and daring to even suggest ANYTHING leads to blasphemy and impurity. Get over yourselves. Why does "Classic" even have its own discussion thread on MMochamp if you can't even discuss anything in it?

Everything has its own forum but starcraft, because of obvious hatred of certain person towards the game

[Echocho]

I don't see why not. It was part of the vanilla beta so it should be considered just like everything else that existed between 0.1 and 1.12

[zelvar]

Adding such abilities can break the pvp balance a lot, retri paladins in the right +crit gear were already powerful enough and if you add extra instant attack, i dont see how it will be fair at any level. Have you seen the tbc prepatch with retri crusader strike? It was stupidly OP.

Talking about the beta version not 2.0 version, I wouldnt consider that vanilla

[Demithio]

No, I want to stand there and wait for SoC to proc.

[Machismo]

I'm trying to figure out how someone can say that pallies were good tanks in vanilla. They didn't have a taunt. The only thing they had going for them was aoe threat. Other than that, they had no redeeming tank qualities.

[Demithio]

I'm trying to figure out how someone can say that pallies were good tanks in vanilla. They didn't have a taunt. The only thing they had going for them was aoe threat. Other than that, they had no redeeming tank qualities.

Really they didn't have much in the way of redeeming qualities in general, other than flash heal and buff bots. I played one throughout vanilla. TBC did massive things for paladins, prior to that, they were mostly raid filler.

[Machismo]

Really they didn't have much in the way of redeeming qualities in general, other than flash heal and buff bots. I played one throughout vanilla. TBC did massive things for paladins, prior to that, they were mostly raid filler.

They were great for fast heals... but most guilds wouldn't let them roll on optimal healing gear. The blessings were great, and that's about it.

Even in TBC, their tanking was weird, because they did not have a single-target taunt until 2.5 (I think). I loved them in TBC, but they were useless in vanilla for anything other than heals.

Edit: It may have been as late as WotLK before they had a single target taunt.

[Sturmbringe]

And they all said you guys all agreed on how you wanted classic.


This is worst than flying and no flying.

These people are die-hard Loladin fans. They are like a minority with a minority within a minority.

Nobody cares what they have to say.

[Demithio]

They were great for fast heals... but most guilds wouldn't let them roll on optimal healing gear. The blessings were great, and that's about it.

Even in TBC, their tanking was weird, because they did not have a single-target taunt until 2.5 (I think). I loved them in TBC, but they were useless in vanilla for anything other than heals.

Edit: It may have been as late as WotLK before they had a single target taunt.

They could pvp (duel) OK. That's if you had the right gear and you were lucky with procs during vanilla. I do recall flattening a few mages and warriors with burst damage. There was certainly tons more demand for paladins when TBC came along. If they leave them as is for vanilla, it will be a repeat of what happened back then. They just wernt viable for much.