[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[dribbles]

https://www.economistsforfreetrade.c...5-Aug-17-2.pdf

Did...you even read their paper? Skimming through it quickly it's heavy on assumptions and supposition and light on any actual data and evidence to back up their conclusions.

The study was performed by this Professor, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Minford A more reliable expert on European economics would be hard to find. I would be willing to bet even the EU fund him somewhat.

[Noradin]

The thing with the EU is its 28 separate nations. Have you ever had 28 people with very different views and priorities try to arrive at a consensus on something?

Yes actually.
The EU manages all the time.
Their secret: Transparency and compromise among themselves.

That is also why the deal with the USA did not work out because their way of conducting talks is incompatible.
(Secret meetings, start outrageous grandstanding and unrealistic demands, meet in the middle, then each side tells their own people they got the best of the other side.)

[Edge-]

The study was performed by this Professor, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Minford A more reliable expert on European economics would be hard to find. I would be willing to bet even the EU fund him somewhat.

Then it's shocking that he and the other pro-Brexit authors didn't show any of their work and based this paper off of heavy assumption and supposition.

I mean, the article should have been titled, "Pro-Brexit economists predictably claim that "no-deal" Brexit will benefit Britain; fail to show any evidence".

[Noradin]

What I am saying is they find a general position among themselves then stick to it. They may make tiny adjustments to that position but that's it. Once a position is worked out they don't open the door because everyone will then want to go back and tailor things that have previously agreed upon to their own benefit.

Yes, the member states use the institutions of the EU to find a compromise between the member states, thus no member state can compromise with the EU institutions, because the institution represents all of them and allowing a compromise there would mean disregarding all other member states.
You are both saying the same thing in different ways.

[dribbles]

There is some bias in that paper but I cannot pin point where it is. Is it in the title? The researcher? The fact that it only references previous work by the author? That it is a manifesto and not a research paper? That it calls people who disagree Remoaners?
Can't just put my finger on it . . .

You may say that, however he is the lead Professor in Economics at a "russell group" (best of the best UK universities) educational EU funded institution. His word and evidence must count for more than most and even if you choose not to believe him, take some comfort that the best and brightest youngsters from around the world now in the UK are being educated by him.

Care to share any study or evidence from anyone more eminent in the field of EU Economics showing an opposite position? As a progressive Brexiteer with an open mind I am always willing to be persuaded, if you have anything that is other than he says she says remain propaganda....

[Edge-]

You may say that, however he is the lead Professor in Economics at a "russell group" (best of the best UK universities) educational EU funded institution. His word and evidence must count for more than most and even if you choose not to believe him, take some comfort that the best and brightest youngsters from around the world now in the UK are being educated by him.

Care to share any study or evidence from anyone more eminent in the field of EU Economics showing an opposite position? As a progressive Brexiteer with an open mind I am always willing to be persuaded, if you have anything that is other than he says she says remain propaganda....

I believe this is what many call an "appeal to authority", as you, and the authors of this paper, have yet to back anything in it up with actual evidence or information. Simply proclaiming that it's valid because, "Well, he's an expert!" is not a terribly compelling argument, my dude.

[dribbles]

I mean if we have absolved ourselves of own thought, here is an Ipsos survey of leading UK economists:
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-...s-views-brexit

And if we are going by appeal to authority, here is John Van Reenen, he is a knight!
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/special/cepsp35.pdf

I am not doubting Minford btw, I attended a lecture from him when I was at Sheffield, the man seems brilliant. But everyone has a blind spot when it comes to their political views and that paper was absolutely biased. See, "Remoaners".

Hmmmmm, well we can trade learned economic knights and warriors with opposing views all day but you know whats real interesting about experts? I was looking at the league tables of learning institutions across the world and the origins of expertise. Why with the huge amounts of educational spending the EU does is anywhere within it so conspicuous by its absence from any University destination top 20 list in the world?

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...asc/cols/stats

Perhaps, going by results, British and American students are just on average naturally brighter people, what else can explain it?

No wonder intelligent and educated Brexit visionaries of the majority such as I, voted the way they did at the referendum and the perfectly nice but dim Europeans just don't understand why yet. More likely I guess a failing to compete globally EU education system is deliberate and to blame for keeping their citizens in ignorance in a cynical EU self preservation issue. Knowledge is power and the EU certainly don't like that!

[Edge-]

Perhaps, going by results, British and American students are just on average naturally brighter people, what else can explain it?

You realize that these schools take international students and have international faculty...right?

[dribbles]

You realize that these schools take international students and have international faculty...right?

The global performance of UK/US universities from wherever they draw their students, internationally or domestically is not in doubt, but why are none based in the EU?

Surely if you had the choice of any University in the world for your children you wouldn't push them towards an EU educational facility which would fail them on every level in world ranking?

[Edge-]

The global performance of UK/US universities from wherever they draw their students, internationally or domestically is not in doubt, but why are none based in the EU?

I'd be curious as to where colleges rank on other lists, that one hardly seems to be "definitive" or "authoritative", also would need to find the time/motivation to dig into their methodology to see how they scored schools.

Beyond that, we can find plenty of historical context for why more modern institutions of higher learning are centralized in the US/UK - they are the two most recent global powerhouses, and I'm sure history buffs would be able to provide far more context on this, but usually global powerhouses (or regional) are the ones where institutions of higher learning flourish. Look to history, and the regional/global powers routinely were the central hubs of learning and higher education compared to other neighboring countries.

You seem to be arguing that there's some kind of implicit intellectual superiority simply by virtue of being "American" or "British", something which isn't remotely backed up by literally anything and toes the line to racist/nationalist undertones.

Surely if you had the choice of any University in the world for your children you wouldn't push them towards an EU educational facility which would fail them on every level in world ranking?

That's not necessarily true. Not being in the top 20 or whatever doesn't mean that you would be "failed" by your education by any measure, and assertions of such are ludicrous and insane. I would push my kids towards whatever colleges they felt would best fit their wants/desires, provided it was accredited and respectable. If it's rank 99, that's still an incredible achievement and something that I would be more than happy to see my children go to.

[dribbles]

I'd be curious as to where colleges rank on other lists, that one hardly seems to be "definitive" or "authoritative", also would need to find the time/motivation to dig into their methodology to see how they scored schools.

Beyond that, we can find plenty of historical context for why more modern institutions of higher learning are centralized in the US/UK - they are the two most recent global powerhouses, and I'm sure history buffs would be able to provide far more context on this, but usually global powerhouses (or regional) are the ones where institutions of higher learning flourish. Look to history, and the regional/global powers routinely were the central hubs of learning and higher education compared to other neighboring countries.

You seem to be arguing that there's some kind of implicit intellectual superiority simply by virtue of being "American" or "British", something which isn't remotely backed up by literally anything and toes the line to racist/nationalist undertones.

There isn't an American or British race considering their respective ethnic makeups, how do you get an accusational ism out of that? If ALL (not just the one I linked) performance league tables showed internationally judged Kenyan or Mexican Universities at the top it would be fair to ask the question are those peoples naturally intellectually gifted or is it some other, perhaps societal or governmental, reason. That wouldn't warrant playing the ism or ist card for asking the question regarding their successes either despite the much narrower genetic spectrum of their peoples compared to the US/UK.

It remains the case no global ranking list generated anywhere by anyone would rank any EU University at the top table for education - you can be sure if it did the EU would be trumpeting it from the rooftops. Yet another EU fail.

Or perhaps there is a list with this hallowed EU institution within it, I await to be proven wrong tap tap tap....

[Edge-]

There isn't an American or British race considering their respective ethnic makeups, how do you get an accusational ism out of that?

Does that bother you? And note, I said toes the line rather than "is". Nuance, broskito.

If ALL (not just the one I linked) performance league tables showed internationally judged Kenyan or Mexican Universities at the top it would be fair to ask the question are those peoples naturally intellectually gifted or is it some other, perhaps societal or governmental, reason.

Also, a reflection back on the histories of those countries and their neighbors in the region to see if there were historical factors driving this, as I noted. Because implying that race or nationality in any way directly impacts ones intelligence is again, toeing the line (at best) with racist/nationalist overtones. It's something not backed up by any science.

That wouldn't warrant playing the ism or ist card for asking the question regarding their successes either despite the much narrower genetic spectrum of their peoples compared to the US/UK.

If the implication was, as you seem to imply, that people in those countries were better simply by virtue of their race/country of origin, yes it would. It would be no different.

It remains the case no global ranking list generated anywhere by anyone would rank any EU University at the top table for education - you can be sure if it did the EU would be trumpeting it from the rooftops. Yet another EU fail.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't be able to say for sure as I'm not super familiar with global rankings for colleges. Either way, you're continuing to ignore the importance of recent historical context as to why this is very likely the case.

Spoilers: It wasn't always the case, and likely has more to do with these countries recent/current standing as global powerhouses than anything else.

Or perhaps there is a list with this hallowed EU institution within it, I await to be proven wrong tap tap tap....

I'm not terribly keen on doing in-depth research on this right now, so you can enjoy being "right". Even if you're still refusing to actually engage in discussion with the topics I'm bringing up as to why this might be the case and instead continue lean heavily on race (even if you're not explicitly mentioning it) and country as if they have some implicit significance in the quality of these countries institutions of higher education. And again, ignoring that both the staff and students at these colleges have become increasingly international, which undermines your point entirely.

Also, as if not having the top 10-20 ranked universities somehow means that other countries can't provide excellent education to local and international students.

It's rote nationalistic bullshit, little more.

[dribbles]

He is right. You also gain nothing from engaging him and there is no actual correlation to the topic under discussion anyway. After all in every one of those UK universities he is proud of, over a third of the students are international students (heck in Imperial, over half)

Of course there is correlation - the long term success or failure of a society at the most basic level relies on the ability of experts to impart their knowledge down through the generations.

The EU is failing its citizens at this most fundamental task falling behind in global league tables and rather than allowing them to drag the UK down into their educational gutter is yet another valid justification amongst so many others for supporting Brexit. How is that not related to the topic when the OP was [EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill . Sure looks like the EU negotiators are suffering from their level of education as the strong and stable UK Brexit side run rings around them, I have just provided the evidential lack of education on their side to substantiate that reasoning.

And there is yet more this evening :-

Leave campaign's £350m claim was too low, says Boris Johnson

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

Did someone really want a second referendum? I know we should just graciously accept we won but the remain side would get crucified in a re-run, bring it on...just need to respray the side of that battle bus!

Nighty nite.

[Edge-]

Of course there is correlation - the long term success or failure of a society at the most basic level relies on the ability of experts to impart their knowledge down through the generations.

And every major nation/civilization that has fallen at one point or another and lost these institutions. They're not permanent, they're as temporary as regional/global supremacy has been throughout recorded human history.

Also, correlation is not causation.

The EU is failing its citizens at this most fundamental task falling behind in global league tables and rather than allowing them to drag the UK down into their educational gutter is yet another valid justification amongst so many others for supporting Brexit. How is that not related to the topic when the OP was [EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill . Sure looks like the EU negotiators are suffering from their level of education as the strong and stable UK Brexit side run rings around them, I have just provided the evidential lack of education on their side to substantiate that reasoning.

No, it's failing your arbitrary measure of "top 20 schools globally". It has plenty of excellent, highly respected schools that are sought after by top students worldwide.

Your problem is that you're having to do some Olympic level mental gymnastics to make your arguments "work", and even then they're still painfully weak and fall over with a mild breeze.

Leave campaign's £350m claim was too low, says Boris Johnson

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

The £350m that was promised to go into the NHS but was a lie because it in no way will?

Did someone really want a second referendum? I know we should just graciously accept we won but the remain side would get crucified in a re-run, bring it on...just need to respray the side of that battle bus!

Yes, Nigal Farage, one of the chief promoters of Brexit has been warming up to the idea.

It's hard not to believe that you're trying to be dishonest with this.

[Kallisto]

The study was performed by this Professor, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Minford A more reliable expert on European economics would be hard to find. I would be willing to bet even the EU fund him somewhat.

A far right economist Thatcherite who believes in the poll tax, something that was so terrible that it basically caused the downfall of Thatcher. Pretty much has zero credibility in anyone not far right.

[Deleted]

You are talking out of your ass again, there is no such thing as the "EU education system".

You must not have paid attention in EU indoctrinating class.

[dribbles]

And every major nation/civilization that has fallen at one point or another and lost these institutions. They're not permanent, they're as temporary as regional/global supremacy has been throughout recorded human history.

Also, correlation is not causation.

As we watch before our eyes the painful collapse of the EU, the very definition of a falling civilisation, I could not agree with you more.

No, it's failing your arbitrary measure of "top 20 schools globally". It has plenty of excellent, highly respected schools that are sought after by top students worldwide.

Perhaps it does have one or two left that barely anyone can mention. It still remains that a student offered a place at Cambridge or Oxford is not going to say "thanks but no thanks, I'm off to some no name no reputation EU place"

Your problem is that you're having to do some Olympic level mental gymnastics to make your arguments "work", and even then they're still painfully weak and fall over with a mild breeze.

What you call complex mental gymnastics to some is simple lateral thinking to others.

You are talking out of your ass again, there is no such thing as the "EU education system".

IF there was the UK would be part of it but ofc you cannot think that far.

Thanks, I agree with you it doesn't have a world class education system. The EU tries, but their educational report would read "could do far better" The fact remains that nice but dim Tim in the EU doesn't have the same life chances of excellence or wisdom as his counterpart in the UK or US.

The £350m that was promised to go into the NHS but was a lie because it in no way will?

Well you don't know yet, wait until April 2019 when we have left, it is still today being gifted to the EU. People in the UK are dying because of the EU parasite sucking its host dry, preventing current proper funding of the NHS.

Yes, Nigal Farage, one of the chief promoters of Brexit has been warming up to the idea.

It's hard not to believe that you're trying to be dishonest with this.

I wonder why Farage is supportive, could it be that another referendum would be a no lose position for the Brexit side? At worst if we lost, which we wouldn't, the case could easily be made for a best out of three.

You must not have paid attention in EU indoctrinating class.

Whereas it obviously worked very well on you.

-------------------------------------------------------

Look at the sentimental drivel that comes out of this mans mouth, jeez it's getting embarassing.

We, here on the continent, haven’t had a change of heart. Our hearts are still open for you.

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/st...90235948666880

Yeah right our hearts are still open to you, like a whore in a German brothel - as long as we can rape your wallet.

[Slant]

No wonder intelligent and educated Brexit visionaries of the majority such as I, voted the way they did at the referendum and the perfectly nice but dim Europeans just don't understand why yet. More likely I guess a failing to compete globally EU education system is deliberate and to blame for keeping their citizens in ignorance in a cynical EU self preservation issue. Knowledge is power and the EU certainly don't like that!

Just spoke to a Brit working in education. He told me his university is massively funded by the EU and he is in a rather doom and gloom mood about seeing those funds disappear. So, either he's lying about where his budget comes from, or your statement that the EU is actively sabotaging education within the EU is a lie.

Guess which way I'm leaning...

[Kiri]

Hmmmmm, well we can trade learned economic knights and warriors with opposing views all day but you know whats real interesting about experts? I was looking at the league tables of learning institutions across the world and the origins of expertise. Why with the huge amounts of educational spending the EU does is anywhere within it so conspicuous by its absence from any University destination top 20 list in the world?

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...asc/cols/stats

Perhaps, going by results, British and American students are just on average naturally brighter people, what else can explain it?

No wonder intelligent and educated Brexit visionaries of the majority such as I, voted the way they did at the referendum and the perfectly nice but dim Europeans just don't understand why yet. More likely I guess a failing to compete globally EU education system is deliberate and to blame for keeping their citizens in ignorance in a cynical EU self preservation issue. Knowledge is power and the EU certainly don't like that!

Did you really just make an argument that Anglo-Saxons are naturally smarter than others based on University rankings? That's easily the worst dribble your dribbled so far, and it is a self-defeating point. You claim to be smarter, yet you apply a ranking that has nothing to do with intelligence, to intelligence. A truly bright person would first see if the comparison even tests for intelligence - which it does not - and then see if the systems are even comparable in the first place - which they are not.
I could explain to you how, say, the American education system differs fundamentally from the German one, making a comparison like this pretty much moot. But you would not listen anyway, so I am sparing myself the trouble.
Let's just say that knowledge is indeed power. Acquiring knowledge in the UK and US costs tens of thousands per year. Now, prove how smart you are and follow that trail of money to the conclusion as to why UK and US universities - and those with the same system - score higher than those of other systems.

Oh most of my friends who work in universities are fairly distraught about Brexit. There are so many joint ventures between universities that are facilitated and funded by the EU and the future for all of them is just uncertain.


But again I think my point stands that the reason of US and UK dominance in education is the English language. And the top 10 UK universities have anything between 30-50% international students.

There is also the money. The education market is a market like any other, so naturally, economics and money explain a lot about those rankings as well.

[Mayhem]

Oh most of my friends who work in universities are fairly distraught about Brexit. There are so many joint ventures between universities that are facilitated and funded by the EU and the future for all of them is just uncertain.


But again I think my point stands that the reason of US and UK dominance in education is the English language. And the top 10 UK universities have anything between 30-50% international students.

It's also due to being heavily funded by student loans.

https://www.sofi.com/blog/how-top-co...ebt-repayment/