Where will M+ take us in the future?

[Jastall]

The concept is fine, the realization sucks. I hope they keep MM+ but with some tweaks.

Currently, the only thing you'll be looking for is "GO FAST LEL". The only criteria for succeeding is the time you spent in. So, exit controls, exit not-top-tier dps classes, welcome invisibility pots, welcome cheese tactics, goodbye fun.
There should be several types of success. For example, the "3 chest", instead being a "even faster than the 2 chest that is even faster than the 1 chest", could be "1 chest for doing it quickly, 1 chest for 0 death, 1 chest for whatever (maybe something related to the dungeon, like the achievements)".
This way, you could totally bring to your run a guy who will do a bit less DPS but a lot more controls/resilience.

Plus, most of affixes could be fun, but they are instead boring because they are completely counter-productive due to this "go fast" criteria. So, you don't manage around them, you find the best way to cheese it (like the pull-reset strat done in the first Arcavia packs under some affixes).

So everyone jettisons the key as soon as someone dies and/or the arbitrary requirement cannot be met? Everyone is penalized if one guy gets killed by one mechanic, once but plays perfectly the entire rest of the run? That doesn't seem conductive to fun group dynamics at all.

The timer only means gogogogo if you do an easy key and want to +3 it. On an actually relevant key difficulty it is no different than a raid boss's enrage timer, IE a minimal performance and execution baseline that you should be able to achieve, while also preventing cheese starts such as waiting on lust for a trash pack. Considering you can wipe several times and still make the timer in some cases, I'd say they do their job.

And utility actually is useful in many instances, moreso than in raids. Sure, aff locks have broken dps in M+ but you need people that can interrupt, aoe stun, easily swap targets, or displace foes depending on the affix, so on and so forth.

[Ophenia]

And utility actually is useful in many instances, moreso than in raids. Sure, aff locks have broken dps in M+ but you need people that can interrupt, aoe stun, easily swap targets, or displace foes depending on the affix, so on and so forth.

Yeah controls are very important, that's why every group running +20s will ask for Boomies and Afflocks, so many controls
You don't need to control if there is nothing to control.

I just threw a few ideas. But the sample key would not be dead if you had one dead, as you can still rush like a tard to reach the time criteria or the other one. You're saying that everyone would abandon and leave the group as soon as you have one death. Because today you're leaving the group as soon as the third chest isn't achievable anymore ? If that's the case, I think you're the problem here.

[Deleted]

Yeah controls are very important, that's why every group running +20s will ask for Boomies and Afflocks, so many controls
You don't need to control if there is nothing to control.

I just threw a few ideas. But the sample key would not be dead if you had one dead, as you can still rush like a tard to reach the time criteria or the other one. You're saying that everyone would abandon and leave the group as soon as you have one death. Because today you're leaving the group as soon as the third chest isn't achievable anymore ? If that's the case, I think you're the problem here.

3 chesting it is long gone in high keys. Even failing the timer awards more loot than doing a low key in 3 chest time. So leaving because it isn't a three chest is just stupid.

You take Moonkins and Afflilocks for high keys because of their toolkit:
-both have battlerezzes
-both are durable (bear form, affli is just affli)
-both are dot classes, so they don't really care if mobs are grouped or spread out
-both have other good utility (Moonkin taunt+offtank on necrotic, treants are really helpful, health stones are really good)
-both help with kiting (affli slow ring, moonkin typhoon)

On the control side the still have beam (really good in a lot of dungeons) or a stun/ST silence.

And on top of that there have good DPS on nearly all pulls.

[klaps_05]

New concept affixes, e.g. the fog on KJ-type of deal. New dungeons. Hopefully a full ranking system like for Arenas and raider.io-type ranking being incorporated in the characters profile.

[Jastall]

Yeah controls are very important, that's why every group running +20s will ask for Boomies and Afflocks, so many controls
You don't need to control if there is nothing to control.

I just threw a few ideas. But the sample key would not be dead if you had one dead, as you can still rush like a tard to reach the time criteria or the other one. You're saying that everyone would abandon and leave the group as soon as you have one death. Because today you're leaving the group as soon as the third chest isn't achievable anymore ? If that's the case, I think you're the problem here.

Yes, so many controls? Boomkins have a bevy of utility, Solarbeam is in fact one of the best abilities in M+. As someone said, both also have brezzes which was broken until today's patch which makes multiple brezzers redundant.

And third chesting? Is this 2017? Again, in low keys yes, but these barely matter. If you're pushing 20+ keys, you're not 3 chesting or even 2 chesting the vast majority of the time, it's just not a reasonably achievable goal. The 3 chest or bust mentality died when Blizzard nerfed them... but if it becomes feasible again, you just introduce more grief. You're going for completion now, and completion of a high key is everything but a gogogo affair. The timer is fine and your solutions are worse than the problem.

[c313]

M+ is one of the best features Blizzard came out with. Every single person can experience them from the casual to the most elite. I would be incredibly suprised if they keep M+ only as a Legion feature. Highly doubt we'll go into BFA without it.

[ro9ue]

I think timers should go away. Just the increase in difficulty alone is good enough for me. I want to be able to take a piss or grab something to eat.

Its also forcing people at high levels to kite huge packs which really isnt compelling game play. Rather just handle a pack at a time, just make them dangerous.

[Dragon Claws]

While I don't mind them, I think anything beyond +15 should be balanced more.

The bump from 18 to 20 is huge and there's a point where basic trash can one-shot you. While they're an alternate means of earning gear, most people do it in place of raid gear if they're in a Mythic guild. Not all gear slots in raids offer the stats you want.

Like the lack of decent versatility gear in Throne if you're a Monk really sucks. So you're somewhat forced to farm M+15s to *maybe* get the gear you want.

[HuxNeva]

Yes, entire 3 of them in the world. How impressive! Top 3 shadow priests on wowprogress did +24 or +25 in time, and there are 3 more in top 10 who did +24 or +25 not in time. What about rogues? Top 38th rogue did +24 in time.



No need to go far.
Top monk healers: https://www.wowprogress.com/mythic_p...er/?class=monk
Top paladin healers: https://www.wowprogress.com/mythic_p.../class.paladin

35 holy paladins are ahead of the best monk healer in the world.
77 holy paladins are ahead of the 2nd best monk healer in the world.

If you are playing the "wrong" spec - bad luck, you're not getting anywhere close to the hardcore M+ scene. Sure, you can be an exceptional player and have good friends - then you can get the taste of high M+ (like that top 1st monk, I assume). But those are exceptions.

You can't 'balance' M+ in that way. Th difficulty is open ended, so at the extreme, even the smallest differences between races/classes will come into play. By definition if there was the smallest advantage left unexploited, it could have led to a higher lvl run. It's like M raids, only more extreme.
If you can't handle that there will always be difference, then the only option is to eliminate all differences between races/classes/specs. I don't want to go there.

A better way to look at it is can every spec be viable up to a level, at his point say +20.

[Swizzington]

I see a lot of people saying stuff like "they keep dungeons relevant" or, "M+ is the only reason I'm still doing dungeons". But...is it really the same? Are you really 'doing a dungeon'? The classic 5 man experience that I grew up loving is vastly different from the experience of M+.

To me, a timer has no place in the game as a primary content mode. I had no problem with challenge modes, because if you wanted to do them, you could. If you didn't want to, no problem, you weren't missing out on too much. It was a bonus thing. Now, M+ awards such good rewards that it's one of the main parts of the game.

Let me be clear, I want hard 5 man content. I don't even mind the idea of keystones ramping up difficulty. But I despise the timer aspect of things. I guess it's just a part of my personality - I don't like to be rushed - but surely I am not the only person that thinks that way. I would rather spend hours wiping in a dungeon on a boss with punishing abilities and interesting mechanics.

I realized I wasn't totally crazy wanting these things after they brought back Karazhan early during Legion. It was a long, somewhat challenging dungeon, that required coordination. One where you'd get together some friends and settle down and have an adventure for several hours, rather than just blowing through it in the dungeon finder with randoms in 10 minutes. I would much rather have the Karazhan experience broadened, than M+ in its current iteration.

[ydraw]

there's a point where basic trash can one-shot you.

That was literally every trash mob in the Burning Crusade heroic dungeons, which is why CC was so hugely important in that expansion.

[Softbottom]

With tier sets being gone next xpac I feel like mythic+ is going to be the go to for a lot of players. Once you get the few azurite items/things (i'm unsure how this system works yet but from what I read certain items will only be obtainable in raids) you can just spam mythic+'s over and over to get gear instead of doing organized raiding. The only reason I still raid is because of tier sets; with them being removed the likelyhood of raiding will probably be very low in BFA.

[Deleted]

I see a lot of people saying stuff like "they keep dungeons relevant" or, "M+ is the only reason I'm still doing dungeons". But...is it really the same? Are you really 'doing a dungeon'? The classic 5 man experience that I grew up loving is vastly different from the experience of M+.

That was literally every trash mob in the Burning Crusade heroic dungeons, which is why CC was so hugely important in that expansion.

TBC came to my mind as well, where you WANTED to run some of the hc dungeons for loot and quest chains that led you to keys to raids. Still fond of my memories of doing the quest chain for the raven-mount. HC Auchindoun was always great fun especially since you NEEDED traps, saps, interrupts, tranqs and dispells.

[Deleted]

TBC came to my mind as well, where you WANTED to run some of the hc dungeons for loot and quest chains that led you to keys to raids. Still fond of my memories of doing the quest chain for the raven-mount. HC Auchindoun was always great fun especially since you NEEDED traps, saps, interrupts, tranqs and dispells.

TBC was the same as Wotlk, MoP, WoD. There were dungeons, the first time the were hard (wotlk and mop got nerfs really early in). But 1 tier later the were a joke.

But thats probably me, being ahead of the curve in every add-on. But I experienced a lot of dungeons vastly different. Yes, TBC heroics were hard, numbers were great. And with shitty kara items they were relevant a long time. On the other hand there was a lot of bullshit too, like 360° cleaves without cast time or announcement, bye bye rogues... But with SSC/TK even timed shattered halls were doable without CC. There could be rushed. Everyone is always talking about Terrace, how hard it was, how CC was needed. No, by the time the dungeon shipped we were in high item levels and rand with enhancer, rogue, hunter, resto shaman. We didn't need CC. All we needed was grounding on CD, interrupts and burst. To me this dungeon was never hard. We did it for the trinkets. And Anzu was fun, but he was patched into TBC after 4 month, so he wasn't that hard.

In every add-on blizzard tried to keep dungeons relevant (valor, quests…) but they were simply a daily chore you rushed through. In mythic+ (yes, there is a timer, i know) you can't outgear the dungeons, because you just add a harder version to it. I like this much more than the past addons, the dungeon just grows with you. No more 5 minutes pull all rushes.

[Deleted]

TBC was the same as Wotlk, MoP, WoD. There were dungeons, the first time the were hard (wotlk and mop got nerfs really early in). But 1 tier later the were a joke.

But thats probably me, being ahead of the curve in every add-on. But I experienced a lot of dungeons vastly different. Yes, TBC heroics were hard, numbers were great. And with shitty kara items they were relevant a long time. On the other hand there was a lot of bullshit too, like 360° cleaves without cast time or announcement, bye bye rogues... But with SSC/TK even timed shattered halls were doable without CC. There could be rushed. Everyone is always talking about Terrace, how hard it was, how CC was needed. No, by the time the dungeon shipped we were in high item levels and rand with enhancer, rogue, hunter, resto shaman. We didn't need CC. All we needed was grounding on CD, interrupts and burst. To me this dungeon was never hard. We did it for the trinkets. And Anzu was fun, but he was patched into TBC after 4 month, so he wasn't that hard.

That's probably the difference - I was an even more filthy casual in TBC than I am now (only raided hard in Wrath) as I only recently started WoW then. When I did raid hard though, I agree dungeons were quickly irrelevant just as any raid before the one most recently added (just like it is now too).
Still no dungeon after TBC heroics had the flavor of Auchindoun heroics when it was still not outgeared. Murmur was super fun(ny) just like all of Shadow Labs for me. Maybe I grew out of my filthy casual awe for a while, but seeing m+17-19 now, I get back the feeling I had in TBC heroics and I do like it. Thank you Blizz.