Why did they buff old raids?

[Fabinas]

I really wonder when will people will actually realise that all that Blizzard does since Legion launch is to put their WoW players in a treadmill and let them run continuously with their casino/slot machine reward schemes and prolonging their time /played with repeated and slow-to-complete content.
Now you're forced to group with other ppl to complete soloable before content and/or spend more time for inflating those sweet MAU's for the Blizzard shareholders.
Doesn't matter that subs are a meager amount now, all it needs are those MAU's being high.

Enjoy being Blizzard's hamsters.

[Hawkknight97]

Hey.

What is the reasoning behind buffing Old raids? They don't really have anything to do with lvling so why were their health buffed aswell? Just to force grouping even at outdated content?

Probably Challenge or grouping up with people again for old raid groups.

[Raelbo]

No it doesn't and Blizzard said so and made adjustments specifically to allow soloing old raids.

That's a somewhat distorted version of the truth based loosely on fact, but completely missing the point.

Old raids require less and less people to beat encounters due to increases in damage and survivability as people outlevel them. At some point our characters so outlevel old raids that most of the encounters become soloable.

It's not a design intent so much as an emergent property of old raid encounters that they become soloable.

Now, because old raids have lots of things hidden inside them that people are keen to farm, people will keep going back to farm those things. If a raid can be soloed then it's simply more pragmatic to solo the thing.

However, in some cases you have a raid which is mostly soloable, except for one encounter due to some strange mechanic that requires 2 or more players. Such encounters are incongruous with the state of the rest of the raid.

This is why Blizzard have "made adjustments specifically to allow soloing old raids". It's to make sure that when a raid has become so deprecated that it is basically soloable that you don't one stupid encounter that isn't.

In no way is this evidence that Blizzard wants or needs to make all old raids soloable as soon as the next expansion arrives. It certainly wasn't always that way - I can remember needing to group up with a friend or two to do many raids from WoTLK and Cata after the new expansions arrived. It was a fun way to replay old raid content before it eventually got to the point of being soloable.

Because that's content that people are interested in, by saying "no, you can't have it", Blizzard are perhaps winning some imaginary purity points, but are losing on player satisfaction.

I am really not sure you have any evidence of this. Yes, soloing old raid content is a thing. And there are still going to be many raids that remain soloable. This simply adds back the intermediate stage of being able to do them with small groups.

But have you considered why people "enjoy" soloing old raids? How important is being to solo the content, so much as simply being able to access the content with relative ease.

I reckon the main reason is to farm for xmog, mounts and pets. We solo the raid because it's the most expedient way to farm content that is trivially easy to solo. "Forcing" people to form small groups with 1-2 friends is at most minor inconvenience but hardly a blocker for what people want out of the content. It also makes the content a bit less boring.

Another reason people enjoy soloing old raids is when it is still challenging to do so. It's fun pushing yourself to defeat a boss that still requires skill to solo. And again, once the raids become trivial to solo, this is no longer a thing.

[rda]

I am really not sure you have any evidence of this. Yes, soloing old raid content is a thing. And there are still going to be many raids that remain soloable. This simply adds back the intermediate stage of being able to do them with small groups.

But have you considered why people "enjoy" soloing old raids? How important is being to solo the content, so much as simply being able to access the content with relative ease.

I reckon the main reason is to farm for xmog, mounts and pets. We solo the raid because it's the most expedient way to farm content that is trivially easy to solo. "Forcing" people to form small groups with 1-2 friends is at most minor inconvenience but hardly a blocker for what people want out of the content. It also makes the content a bit less boring.

Yes, people enjoy farming old raids because of transmog, mounts and pets. Also recipes, achievements and gold.

As I say, because that's content that people are interested in, by saying "no, you can't have it", Blizzard are perhaps winning some imaginary purity points, but are losing on player satisfaction.

The evidence of this, which you are looking for, is in people doing old raids.

In no way is this evidence that Blizzard wants or needs to make all old raids soloable as soon as the next expansion arrives.

I am not talking about what Blizzard want (not that their wants are hidden: they want player satisfaction because that brings them money, but yes, there are multiple roads to that). I am talking about what people want. They want to be able to solo old raids. Blizzard supported that desire. The change that runs against it is likely an oversight and will be undone.

[Zyrinx]

They will definitely lose subs over this, especially in a year long content drought.

Whattheactualfuck were they thinking.

[rda]

/merged into above

[Bamboozles]

They will definitely lose subs over this, especially in a year long content drought.

Whattheactualfuck were they thinking.

lol. I can't with some of you anymore.

[rda]

lol. I can't with some of you anymore.

He is right.

[Raelbo]

This thread is a magnet for the ignorant, can't we consolidate this toxicity in the "classic" forum?

The funny thing about this comment is that your argument that follows seems to fit the bill perfectly :P

Seems pretty stupid and pointless, all it will do is get people to stop doing content, and if they prioritized that content, unsub. Where is the logic to this?

Why would people stop doing content? Have you considered why they are doing that content in the first place or how such a change will affect their ability to continue doing the content?

Making recent expansion raids non-soloable neither prevents most players from doing them (forming a 2-3 person group doesn't make something inaccessible) nor does it affect the reasons (xmog, mounts, pets) for people wanting to do the content. And really, if the requirement to form a small group does cockblock someone, the vast majority of legacy raids are still easily soloable at level 110, so the player can focus on those until 6 months or a year from now at which point they will be able to solo this raid no problem.

Also this assertion that people are playing this game primarily to solo old raids seems to me a bit strange. I get that doing old raids as filler content between current content is a thing, but surely that isn't the primary reason for doing so. The only group for old raids would be a major focus of their game is people who are trying for a low level experience - which is who this change is aimed at anyway - to make the content more relevant to them.

[Deleted]

That's a somewhat distorted version of the truth based loosely on fact, but completely missing the point.

Old raids require less and less people to beat encounters due to increases in damage and survivability as people outlevel them. At some point our characters so outlevel old raids that most of the encounters become soloable.

It's not a design intent so much as an emergent property of old raid encounters that they become soloable.

Now, because old raids have lots of things hidden inside them that people are keen to farm, people will keep going back to farm those things. If a raid can be soloed then it's simply more pragmatic to solo the thing.

However, in some cases you have a raid which is mostly soloable, except for one encounter due to some strange mechanic that requires 2 or more players. Such encounters are incongruous with the state of the rest of the raid.

This is why Blizzard have "made adjustments specifically to allow soloing old raids". It's to make sure that when a raid has become so deprecated that it is basically soloable that you don't one stupid encounter that isn't.

In no way is this evidence that Blizzard wants or needs to make all old raids soloable as soon as the next expansion arrives. It certainly wasn't always that way - I can remember needing to group up with a friend or two to do many raids from WoTLK and Cata after the new expansions arrived. It was a fun way to replay old raid content before it eventually got to the point of being soloable.



I am really not sure you have any evidence of this. Yes, soloing old raid content is a thing. And there are still going to be many raids that remain soloable. This simply adds back the intermediate stage of being able to do them with small groups.

But have you considered why people "enjoy" soloing old raids? How important is being to solo the content, so much as simply being able to access the content with relative ease.

I reckon the main reason is to farm for xmog, mounts and pets. We solo the raid because it's the most expedient way to farm content that is trivially easy to solo. "Forcing" people to form small groups with 1-2 friends is at most minor inconvenience but hardly a blocker for what people want out of the content. It also makes the content a bit less boring.

Another reason people enjoy soloing old raids is when it is still challenging to do so. It's fun pushing yourself to defeat a boss that still requires skill to solo. And again, once the raids become trivial to solo, this is no longer a thing.

This does not matter at all. Soloing old raids is exactly that - SOLOING. If you could solo a raid boss before the patch, you should be able to do the same now. The patch should have been targeting leveling in content before Legion, and only that. Not the character power of max level characters with appropriate gear. I am sure they could have easily implemented a formula for increasing your DPS to even out the HP increase of bosses compared to your character's level. It's just a bit of math, should not be that complicated.

Things become even worse if you have leveling dungeon groups which have more difficulty with dungeons now than they had in the time when these dungeons have been current content. Like we have now with WoD leveling dungeons. If this is the case, then they clearly made a big mistake. Everything you say is some kind of spin doctoring.

[McNeil]

Haven't done old raids yet but this sounds worrying. Has there been any thought behind this decision from the team?

[Aaronioslo]

because you were having too much fun before

[Raelbo]

Yes, people enjoy farming old raids because of transmog, mounts and pets. Also recipes, achievements and gold.

As I say, because that's content that people are interested in, by saying "no, you can't have it", Blizzard are perhaps winning some imaginary purity points, but are losing on player satisfaction.

The evidence of this, which you are looking for, is in people doing old raids.

Yes, I get all of this. I pretty much said as much in my previous message.

However, making recently obsolete raids require you to group up with 1-3 other players does not have a direct bearing on any of this. You can still farm that raid for transmog, mounts, pets, recipes, achievements and gold.

In other words the evidence is there that people are interested in doing old raids. That is not evidence that being able to solo old raids is a requirement. As I said, people soloed old raids because that was the most expedient way of doing old raids that are soloable. That is not evidence that people sought soloable raid content.

I am not talking about what Blizzard want (not that their wants are hidden: they want player satisfaction because that brings them money, but yes, there are multiple roads to that). I am talking about what people want.

And by "want" I meant what they were trying to achieve with their stated objective making "adjustments specifically to allow soloing old raids".

They want to be able to solo old raids. Blizzard supported that desire. The change that runs against it is likely an oversight and will be undone.

Context, context, context. When 11/12 bosses in a raid are soloable, having one that has a gimmicky mechanic requiring multiple players, or a specific ability, is retarded. It's entirely understandable that players (myself included) want to able to not be blocked from soloing the raid instance due to one boss (eg Valithria in ICC) when the rest of the instance is just a walkover.

That doesn't mean that the ability to solo every old raid the second a new expansion is actually important or something that people really want.

People here are simply freaking out because something they could do yesterday (solo HFC) they cannot do today. It seems to me like a massive knee-jerk reaction rather than a considered response to how it will affect them a week, month or year from now (honest answer: it won't). And if people want to convince me otherwise they are going to need to bring better arguments to the table.

[Deleted]

Blizzard are morons.

When they had the option of the stat squish or mega damage they chose poorly. Why? Because they chose stat squish and then promised to nerf old raids in order to still make them soloable as to not hurt anyone's gameplay with the stat squish. And now they're forced to do another stat squish and they're ruining soloing old raids while at it.

They should've gone with the mega damage option and leave the scaling intact.

[Growel]

I'll be honest that roflstomping old content isn't something that I find particularly engaging. I have always found that having to actually apply myself to get the kill, or alternatively getting together with a few friends to do it is far more interesting.

OK, but roflstomping old content IS fun for me. It’s a fun little side game, within the greater WoW. And I’m primarily treating WoW as a single player game, in many respects. Sure, I do casual PVP and 5-man heroics (things you can leave at any minute and people don’t care, unless you’re carrying the flag, etc). As someone who’s family life often requires me to log off in 5 minutes notice, and as someone who ENJOYS playing WoW ALONE, I don’t want to lose one of my favorite activities in the game.

If you want to do it with friends, you could have always still done that.

I’d argue that OLD raids are NOT intended to be multiplayer.

[Raelbo]

This does not matter at all. Soloing old raids is exactly that - SOLOING. If you could solo a raid boss before the patch, you should be able to do the same now. The patch should have been targeting leveling in content before Legion, and only that.

You make a valid point. Most people aren't likely to respond positively when they feel like they've been nerfed. That being said, was it really necessary for the sake of fun that the most recent expansion raids should have been soloable at mythic level already?

Is the level at which WoD raids are now sitting really the problem, or is it the fact that they suddenly changed? I would argue the latter.

Things become even worse if you have leveling dungeon groups which have more difficulty with dungeons now than they had in the time when these dungeons have been current content. Like we have now with WoD leveling dungeons. If this is the case, then they clearly made a big mistake.

Granted, I haven't used dungeons to level any toons lately, but the last time I did, and from what I read almost daily here, those dungeons have for a long time been ridiculously easy to the point of being downright boring.

Everything you say is some kind of spin doctoring.

Oh really? How very puerile of you.

What I have been saying is my honest response to the frankly pathetic whining that has mushroomed in threads like this. To your credit you did make one good point and as you can see I have treated it fairly, but most commentary hasn't really been substantiated at all.

[rda]

Making recent expansion raids non-soloable neither prevents most players from doing them (forming a 2-3 person group doesn't make something inaccessible) nor does it affect the reasons (xmog, mounts, pets) for people wanting to do the content.

I am sorry, I am going to be blunt. You are wrong on both counts and I am not sure how you cannot see it.

Point 1. Making something require a group instead of being soloable does prevent people from doing it. In droves. A lot more people do things if they are soloable than if it requires a group. This is everywhere.

Point 2. When a player farms a raid for transmog / pets / mounts / similar things and that raid suddenly gets harder, this is a HUGE let down for the player and a big reason to just stop doing it. Because while the rewards are still there, if it takes significantly longer to reach them this just feels like a big waste of time after you have already got accustomed to the fast times. This multiplies with alts, just in case, we are talking about hours and days of added wasted time here. This is a big reason to simply stop farming - either until Blizzard fix it or just forever.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, I get all of this. I pretty much said as much in my previous message.

However, making recently obsolete raids require you to group up with 1-3 other players does not have a direct bearing on any of this. You can still farm that raid for transmog, mounts, pets, recipes, achievements and gold.

Yes, it does. See point 1 above. If you aren't satisfied with "this is everywhere", look at statistics of *any* activity that can be done solo compared to the same activity done in a group. Solo queue in PVP dwarfs group queue. Solo farming dwarfs organized farming in teams. Etc.

Whenever there is a requirement to have more than one person, you just lose 70-80% of the participation.

[Tabrotar]

They were told this is a bad idea by people who played on the PTR. They didn't listen. I seriously hope they're going to fix this because it solves nothing and will only piss a lot of people off.

One thread from December 1st: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9607341?page=1

Is anyone really surprised about this?

I mean it´s not the first time that Blizz had done this especially when they were told BEFORE that this will be a problem...

But ofc our resident White Knights will come in here and defend it like usually.

[rda]

People here are simply freaking out because something they could do yesterday (solo HFC) they cannot do today.

This is a completely justified and sound reaction. Blizzard broke gameplay that was working for people. People don't like it. They are right not to like it. Blizzard, please fix, etc.

[Shadowsgrace]

Just give them some time, and Complaint posts on the forums, for them to realize that solo'ing content hat higher/max lvl is now impossible for some raids/boss, they will fix dps damage modifiers for over level toons on lower level content. At least this is what I thought of, and I'm far from being a techy type of person. Blizzard banks on players farming older content for transmog, mounts, achievements, as "Content" they wont let that sit and rot.

Edit: Also remember there will be another Stat squish, I assume in 8.0 coming.