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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Nationally, we need to renormalize our personal, economic and political behaviors. Individually we must reduce our liabilities. We must live within our means. We must plan for tomorrow and not just live in the now as a people. We must be altruistic and selfless.
    Why don't you go back to your home country, Colombia? I mean, you are trashing the American Dream here. These character traits... people who didn't feel that way left for America, u'know

    The age of "me" is over.
    Who made you pharaoh?

    The "age of me" is America, it's its foundation you are criticizing here. Immigrants came to the US for "ME! ME! ME!"

    The traits you want Americans to have, is the glue that keeps real nations together, it's not part of America. You can waste all the money in the world on defense but in the end the lack of glue is what will undo America by its own citizens the moment it becomes a benefit to do so. In fact it will be seen as patriotic by its own citizens to pull the country apart since it no longer serves their interests.
    Other nations, that have glue, don't do that. America will end up in the history books in a long list of dead countries.

    How do you propose to make a narcissistic populace suddenly start giving a shit about each other? By telling them to behave in un-American ways like those you suggested?


  2. #182
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    Why don't you go back to your home country, Colombia? I mean, you are trashing the American Dream here. These character traits... people who didn't feel that way left for America, u'know

    Who made you pharaoh?

    The "age of me" is America, it's its foundation you are criticizing here. Immigrants came to the US for "ME! ME! ME!"

    The traits you want Americans to have, is the glue that keeps real nations together, it's not part of America. You can waste all the money in the world on defense but in the end the lack of glue is what will undo America by its own citizens the moment it becomes a benefit to do so. In fact it will be seen as patriotic by its own citizens to pull the country apart since it no longer serves their interests.
    Other nations, that have glue, don't do that. America will end up in the history books in a long list of dead countries.

    How do you propose to make a narcissistic populace suddenly start giving a shit about each other? By telling them to behave in un-American ways like those you suggested?

    You seem to be confusing a cultural trend that is pretty much a feature of the Baby Boomer generation and some Gen Xers rather than something basic to the nature of American society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    You seem to be confusing a cultural trend that is pretty much a feature of the Baby Boomer generation and some Gen Xers rather than something basic to the nature of American society.
    Why do you think people crossed oceans risking their lives to come to America for centuries? People went through everything for the prices the saw at the end of the rainbow..



    The baby boomers, well that is the end goal, isn't?

  4. #184
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    Why do you think people crossed oceans risking their lives to come to America for centuries? People went through everything for the prices the saw at the end of the rainbow..
    Which has only been equated as mutually exclusive with the idea of community benefit fairly recently, largely as a result of the Reagan Era.

    The baby boomers, well that is the end goal, isn't?
    A selfish generation of irresponsible has-beens? Sure, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #185
    This is going to help the US weather the coming storm by a cubic poop ton.


    .

    U.S. oil industry set to break record, upend global trade

    HOUSTON (Reuters) - Surging shale production is poised to push U.S. oil output to more than 10 million barrels per day - toppling a record set in 1970 and crossing a threshold few could have imagined even a decade ago.
    FILE PHOTO: Workers hired by U.S. oil and gas company Apache Corp drill a horizontal well in the Wolfcamp Shale in west Texas Permian Basin near the town of Mertzon, Texas, U.S., October 29, 2013. REUTERS/Terry Wade/File Photo

    And this new record, expected within days, likely won’t last long. The U.S. government forecasts that the nation’s production will climb to 11 million barrels a day by late 2019, a level that would rival Russia, the world’s top producer.

    The economic and political impacts of soaring U.S. output are breathtaking, cutting the nation’s oil imports by a fifth over a decade, providing high-paying jobs in rural communities and lowering consumer prices for domestic gasoline by 37 percent from a 2008 peak.

    Fears of dire energy shortages that gripped the country in the 1970s have been replaced by a presidential policy of global “energy dominance.”

    “It has had incredibly positive impacts for the U.S. economy, for the workforce and even our reduced carbon footprint” as shale natural gas has displaced coal at power plants, said John England, head of consultancy Deloitte’s U.S. energy and resources practice.

    U.S. energy exports now compete with Middle East oil for buyers in Asia. Daily trading volumes of U.S. oil futures contracts have more doubled in the past decade, averaging more than 1.2 billion barrels per day in 2017, according to exchange operator CME Group.

    The U.S. oil price benchmark, West Texas Intermediate crude, is now watched closely worldwide by foreign customers of U.S. gasoline, diesel and crude.

    The question of whether the shale sector can continue at this pace remains an open debate. The rapid growth has stirred concerns that the industry is already peaking and that production forecasts are too optimistic.

    The costs of labor and contracted services have recently risen sharply in the most active oilfields; drillable land prices have soared; and some shale financiers are calling on producers to focus on improving short-term returns rather than expanding drilling.

    But U.S. producers have already far outpaced expectations and overcome serious challenges, including the recent effort by the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) to sink shale firms by flooding global markets with oil.

    The cartel of oil-producing nations backed down in November 2016 and enacted production cuts amid pressure from their own members over low prices - which had plunged to below $27 earlier that year from more than $100 a barrel in 2014.

    Shale producers won the price war through aggressive cost-cutting and rapid advances in drilling technology. Oil now trades above $64 a barrel, enough for many U.S. producers to finance both expanded drilling and dividends for shareholders.
    BOOMING OIL EXPORTS

    Efficiencies spurred by the battle with OPEC - including faster drilling, better well designs and more fracking - helped U.S. firms produce enough oil to successfully lobby for the repeal of a ban on oil exports. In late 2015, Congress overturned the prohibition it had imposed following OPEC’s 1973 embargo.

    The United States now exports up to 1.7 million barrels per day of crude, and this year will have the capacity to export 3.8 billion cubic feet per day of natural gas. Terminals conceived for importing liquefied natural gas have now been overhauled to allow exports.

    That export demand, along with surging production in remote locations such as West Texas and North Dakota, has led to a boom in U.S. pipeline construction. Firms including Kinder Morgan and Enterprise Products Partners added 26,000 miles of liquids pipelines in the five years between 2012 and 2016, according to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration. Several more multi-billion-dollar pipeline projects are on the drawing board.

    U.S. drillers say they can supply plenty more.

    “We continue to see and drive improvements” in drilling speed and efficiency, said Mathias Schlecht, a technology vice president at Baker Hughes, General Electric Co’s oilfield services business.

    New wells can be drilled in as little as a week, he said. A few years ago, it could take up to a month.
    TECHNOLOGY OPENS UP NEW FIELDS

    The next phase of shale output growth depends on techniques to squeeze more oil from each well. Companies are now putting sensors on drill bits to more precisely access oil deposits, using artificial intelligence and remote operators to get the most out of equipment and trained engineers.

    As expanded investments push more producers to add wells in less productive regions, technology will help make those plays more profitable, said Kate Richard, chief executive of Warwick Energy Group, which owns interests in more than 5,000 U.S. wells.

    In an interview, she estimated about a third of the money from private equity investments in shale will be used to wring more oil from overlooked regions.

    Higher prices - up about $10 a barrel in the last two months - also may encourage the industry to work through a backlog of some 7,300 drilled-but-uncompleted shale wells that have built up because of crew and equipment shortages.

    The higher prices have suppliers that provide hydraulic fracturing services, such as Keane Group and Liberty Oilfield Services, buying expensive new equipment in anticipation of more work.

    U.S. fracking service revenues are expected to grow by 20 percent this year, approaching a record of $29 billion set in 2014, according to oilfield research firm Spears & Associates.
    OIL MAJORS JOIN SHALE FRAY

    The shale revolution initially upended the traditional industry hierarchy, making billionaires out of wildcatters such as Harold Hamm, who founded Continental Resources, and the late Aubrey McClendon of Chesapeake Energy.

    Top U.S. oil firms such as Exxon Mobil and Chevron a decade ago turned much of their focus to foreign fields, leaving smaller firms to develop U.S. shale. Now they’re back, buying shale companies, land and shifting more investments back home from overseas.

    Exxon last year agreed to pay up to $6.6 billion for land in the Permian basin, the epicenter of U.S. shale. Chevron this year plans to spend $4.3 billion on shale development.

    The majors’ shift is driving up costs for labor and drillable land in the region, another boost to wages and wealth in rural areas.

    In the shale industry hub of Midland, Texas, unemployment has fallen to a mere 2.6 percent, said Willie Taylor, executive director of the Permian Basin Workforce Development Board, a group that helps firms find staff.

    Companies are now offering signing bonuses to attract workers to West Texas. One oil company flies workers to Midland from Houston weekly to fill a local labor void, he said.

    “It was an employer’s market,” he said. “Now it’s more of a job seeker’s market.”
    Last edited by Independent voter; 2018-01-16 at 09:51 PM.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  6. #186
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    The "age of me" is America, it's its foundation you are criticizing here. Immigrants came to the US for "ME! ME! ME!"
    It is ironic. America is a country founded by treasure seeking people with a penchant for wanderlust. This land is based entirely on the concept of ME! ME! ME!. Its economy depends on that cultural trait. There is a reason American English invented a hundred different synonyms and phrases for "Swindling", this country started as a nation of hucksters looking to get rich quick or religious fanatics trying to bring Gods Kingdom here on Earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  7. #187
    Damn @Skroe, you're getting brigaded again.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  8. #188
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    What core principles are we meant to agree upon? Because following Skroe's meandering ideological position, Americanism or its principles in his mind look to me like agreeing to specific policy prescriptions. Mainly a commitment to a global imperium of one sort or another. That is a specific policy objective. People speak of us having to agree to specific things, acting as if these are universal principles but when one pulls back the veil it is revealed to be just another political faction trying to position their worldview as if it were some universal we all must agree to before we can debate anything. Which is unironically not terrible democratic now is it?

    So tell me, What are we allowed to disagree upon? And please, spell out specifically what it is you feel I should agree to?
    -that government should be a public trust (i.e. typically, this means that government is representative of the citizenry - and conducted as a democracy or republic).

    -that it (government) should be conducted for the general benefit of the public (obviously, there's a huge space for disagreements on _how_ to do so).

    -that there are an agreed-upon set of rules (laws) for how government is to be conducted, which should be followed.

    -that elections and the mechanisms governing them should be implemented and conducted in good faith (I.e. free and fair elections).


    People can disagree about what their nation should be doing, about the choices their fellow citizens and government makes; but if you cannot agree on the above, then what you're really talking about is changing the system of government to an unfree one. Traditionally, for all it's problems, the United States has been more free than not (not that it is not without some exceptions, from mild to vile) - it has historically practiced at the least, a noble sort of hypocrisy, aspiring to be better than it is or was.

    Skroe wants the United States to move in a particular direction - rather different than the one I would recommend or choose, were it up to me (which it is emphatically not), but he has never (to the best of my knowledge) advocated the destruction of the American system of government. But that destruction is what is not-so-slowly happening with the Trump-led GOP in charge of the United States (not that Trump is the sole source of the decay, as I think Skroe pointed out, but Trump is a gross symptom of it, and a very dangerous one).
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    It is ironic. America is a country founded by treasure seeking people with a penchant for wanderlust. This land is based entirely on the concept of ME! ME! ME!. Its economy depends on that cultural trait. There is a reason American English invented a hundred different synonyms and phrases for "Swindling", this country started as a nation of hucksters looking to get rich quick or religious fanatics trying to bring Gods Kingdom here on Earth.
    America's, just like Canada's foundations are deeply rooted in the ability of a multicultural society to come together and function, do and achieve wonderful things. The ME! ME! ME! concept is what drove the country to some nasty wars and the US! US! US! US! to the super power that is today.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    Damn @Skroe, you're getting brigaded again.
    When better to pile up than one of his absences?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    The Post-Cold War era is over and dead and it isn't coming back anytime soon. And we're going to be lucky to get out of this new era we're in at anything less than a high cost.

    Part VI: Conclusion


    We need to decide how to win in this world, and the key to it is to address the world as it is, and not as we'd like it to be. Barack Obama, foolishly, chastised Vladmir Putin for operating a 19th century foreign policy because Obama would never, on his own, operate a zero-sum foreign policy like Putin did. A man leading a life built around win-wins in every domain, foreign and domestic, had no frame of reference for a Putin's pirate-raider mentality.
    Skroe it is very simple dude and it seems that you can't just get it. You win at this world by looking after your own people, by fighting poverty, inequality, providing equal opportunities, providing to your vets after they come back home and not just throw them away like garbage, backing up international bodies like UN and UNSC, backing up measure against climate change etc.

    The reason of your decline and the reason why this world is becoming again a VERY DANGEROUS PLACE is very simple: Exceptionalism
    You are trying to enforce the American Exceptionalism in a global scale. 350 or so millions of people, are trying to dictate to some billion others, how to vote, how to live their lives, what to buy, what to eat, when to take a sh*t.

    The world is changing, EU - US are not what they once were. Countries that were once farm lands, are coming up with super computers and rockets that fly to the moon. Farmers are becoming world class scientists and people in general start to ask questions.

    There is only one way forward, not just for the US but for the EU as well: Putting people first, protection of our society and our planet through INTERNATIONAL Organizations - Unification in general.

  12. #192
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    The U.S. government forecasts that the nation’s production will climb to 11 million barrels a day by late 2019, a level that would rival Russia, the world’s top producer.
    One can tell how fake the story is just by looking at this part. Russia isn't even anywhere near the top.
    Saudi Arabia is the world's undisputed top oil producer, by a landslide. Iran is 2nd.

  13. #193
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    -that government should be a public trust (i.e. typically, this means that government is representative of the citizenry - and conducted as a democracy or republic).

    -that it (government) should be conducted for the general benefit of the public (obviously, there's a huge space for disagreements on _how_ to do so).

    -that there are an agreed-upon set of rules (laws) for how government is to be conducted, which should be followed.

    -that elections and the mechanisms governing them should be implemented and conducted in good faith (I.e. free and fair elections).

    People can disagree about what their nation should be doing, about the choices their fellow citizens and government makes; but if you cannot agree on the above, then what you're really talking about is changing the system of government to an unfree one. Traditionally, for all it's problems, the United States has been more free than not (not that it is not without some exceptions, from mild to vile) - it has historically practiced at the least, a noble sort of hypocrisy, aspiring to be better than it is or was.

    Skroe wants the United States to move in a particular direction - rather different than the one I would recommend or choose, were it up to me (which it is emphatically not), but he has never (to the best of my knowledge) advocated the destruction of the American system of government. But that destruction is what is not-so-slowly happening with the Trump-led GOP in charge of the United States (not that Trump is the sole source of the decay, as I think Skroe pointed out, but Trump is a gross symptom of it, and a very dangerous one).
    One, the four things you've mentioned are interesting. However, they are points for which you are decades if not centuries too late. The Rule of Law never applied evenly. The Government is rarely much for the general benefit of the public and that is such a trite and vague statement that nobody could seriously speak of it. The Government has rarely followed such rules for governing either, especially during the Cold War which Skroe worships as America's Golden Age. Finally We've had many elections that were neither free nor fair, which ones are you bitching about now?

    The issue I think you are having is not that those four things you spelled out aren't agreed upon, but that some are pointing out that they never evenly applied anyway and have a new direction to take them. All Trump did is have the curtousy to not be a polite gentile statesmen about it all and thus make people painfully aware of what Obama's poetic words and nice smile made pleasent. The country is rotten and has been well before you and I were born. The problem is all those things you mention, if they ever existed in America certainly went by the way side in the era of Imperium America that Skroe wishes to recreate.

    The problem with this "noble sort of hypocracy" is it is delusional. It makes one willing to believe things about oneself that are not true. It settles ones conscious when they do evil because "Hey. We do it for a righteous cause and are basically good so its okay!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    America's, just like Canada's foundations are deeply rooted in the ability of a multicultural society to come together and function, do and achieve wonderful things. The ME! ME! ME! concept is what drove the country to some nasty wars and the US! US! US! US! to the super power that is today.
    Canada was only Multicultural because they were unwilling and uninterested in fully exterminating its native population in the Northern areas and because of the British granting the French and Scots-Gaelic parts a high degree of autonomy. Canada is only less ME! ME! ME! in marginal senses.

    If anything I'd say Mexico is a more US! US! US! society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    One can tell how fake the story is just by looking at this part. Russia isn't even anywhere near the top.
    Saudi Arabia is the world's undisputed top oil producer, by a landslide. Iran is 2nd.
    Google would like to have a word with you.

  15. #195
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    One can tell how fake the story is just by looking at this part. Russia isn't even anywhere near the top.
    Saudi Arabia is the world's undisputed top oil producer, by a landslide. Iran is 2nd.
    Are you sure your ego isn’t confusing production with exporting, to then claim fake?

    Yep, as I said SA is top exporter... although I’ve only seen Iran as high as 7th and 16th here:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...by_oil_exports

    I thought you meant exported to US, but that made it even worse. SA was 3rd, behind Canada and Mexico.
    Last edited by Felya; 2018-01-17 at 07:05 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  16. #196
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    -that government should be a public trust (i.e. typically, this means that government is representative of the citizenry - and conducted as a democracy or republic).
    Not entirely sure that Trump is against this.
    -that it (government) should be conducted for the general benefit of the public (obviously, there's a huge space for disagreements on _how_ to do so).
    Now we come to the first problem, who is the public?
    For the purposes of this, is it everyone, or just american citizens?
    (this by the way relates the most strongly to "Mainly a commitment to a global imperium" - because while immigration is undoubtedly good for the american Empire, it's not good for the American nation.
    -that there are an agreed-upon set of rules (laws) for how government is to be conducted, which should be followed.
    I think you will reasonably find that ignoring rule of law is a left wing thing (Sanctuary cities comes to mind).
    Skroe wants the United States to move in a particular direction - rather different than the one I would recommend or choose, were it up to me (which it is emphatically not), but he has never (to the best of my knowledge) advocated the destruction of the American system of government. But that destruction is what is not-so-slowly happening with the Trump-led GOP in charge of the United States (not that Trump is the sole source of the decay, as I think Skroe pointed out, but Trump is a gross symptom of it, and a very dangerous one).
    I think that you will find that the biggest ideological schism introduced by Trump (beyond his lack of experience and competence) is whether or not the US should be a liberal imperial state, or a nation.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    First we separate our needs from our wants and focused on the things that matter.

    Let me give you an example, because defining what a "need" and what a "want" is, is something that will have to be via a reformulated bipartisan consensus in community years. The centers of both parties will have to broadly agree, like they did after World War II, to keep a large degree of domestic politics sandboxed, so the wants don't drown the needs.
    I know this thread was last active a month ago, but I've been thinking about this wants/needs conflict recently, specifically in that a very significant proportion of the American populace is going to take some convincing. The right and the left both had sizable anti-establishment movements that were firmly established in 2016, and both of their policies would result in a reduced role in the world for America as compared to the current consensus, and a significant effect on how the post-war international order is upheld.

    The Trump campaign had protectionist and strong nationalist elements to it, diverging from the traditional post-war American positions in regards to trade, NATO, democratic values, etc, and it was clear from the get go that he would shred any remaining moral authority that we had. Yes, Trump is pushing for more military spending, but 1) the Trump campaign was a garbled mess of contradictions with no underpinning ideology to begin with, and 2) I rather doubt that the "America First" crowd's military spending push is based in an intellectual and principled defense of the American military's role and mission abroad. Other than destroying credibility and souring allies, he hasn't yet changed the military's mission in any significant way (correct me if I'm wrong), and despite his bluster about trade deals, not much has come out of this yet.

    More significantly, since momentum appears to be heading leftward, there is the Progressive/Sanders movement on the left, which from a policy standpoint is overwhelmingly concerned with domestic issues (Indeed, as a Progressive, I freely admit that the biggest weakness of the movement to be an overly moralistic and not particularly nuanced foreign policy). Despite the lack of focus on foreign policy, they do however very much want to slash military spending. This is probably what concerns you the most: these are the people who scoff at the notion that the military is underfunded, remind you how big our military budget is compared to the next several countries combined, and toss up the graph of discretionary spending for good measure.

    These are also the people you'll need to convince. And pointing out the importance of maintaining our post-war hegemony isn't going to do it. Demonstrating our global and regional security interests isn't going to budge them. The threat of China advancing (and getting to set the rules) if America recedes isn't going to win many converts. What (if anything) is going to convince them? Domestic policy wins, and economic improvement. And it isn't because the Bernie movement is going to be a left-wing version of the Tea Party/anti-compromise caucus. (They may well turn into that, but that still wouldn't be the reason why). It's because many Americans, especially young and/or progressive Americans, don't believe they are getting a return on their investment.

    You already know of course that we, as a country, aren't spending so much on our military to uphold the post-war liberal order and maintain our advantage for funzies. Nor out of generosity. We do it because we benefit from it- but voters aren't feeling much like beneficiaries these days. They look at the USA, and see a country with historic (and rising) inequality, the world's most expensive healthcare and higher education, decades of stagnating wages, poor social mobility, rampant legalized corruption, a nation of incarceration, expensive conflicts in the Middle East, and a seemingly eager willingness to let Corporate America set the policy agenda (not to mention our various social issues). They look across the pond, or up north, and see universal healthcare, stronger middle classes, free or low cost universities, more favorable worker rights and benefits, very little gun violence, etc. This is why the Progressive movement wants to trade guns for butter. Progressives don't perceive the average American as the primary beneficiary of America's global military footprint. Donald Trump is the most uninformed president we've ever had, but he did bumble his way into a legitimate and significant concern in this country: we aren't getting a good deal.

    Now of course, some people won't ever be convinced. Some people may yet be convinced by the realities of rising global security threats- a significant portion of the Bernie crowd, after all, was in diapers when the USSR collapsed (if they were even born yet), and take the relative peace of the American Hegemony for granted. But if you want to convince this country that our role as the chief maintainer of the post-war international order is worth preserving, the USA needs to first be convinced that it's citizens are the primary beneficiaries. When the young and future voters of America start seeing this country as the Land of Opportunity again, they'll be far more amenable to maintaining our global position.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  18. #198
    F "global hegemony" and our "international responsibilities".

    In the behind. With an iron stick.

    1)withdraw from all free trade agreements
    2)withdraw from the WTO
    3)50% tariff on all imports
    4)card check union membership nationwide (public and private sector)
    5)reinstate the ban on exporting US oil
    6)withdraw from all military alliances
    7)pull all US troops back to the 50 states/territories/commonwealths (the US navy guaranteeing freedom of the high seas for American ships being the only exception)
    8)constitutional amendment forbidding the foreign deployment of US troops without a formal declaration of war from Congress
    9)constitutional amendment requiring a 4/5ths majority of Congress to declare war
    10)issue a 21st century version of the Monroe Doctrine, stating the US will consider any interference in the Americas (by any power outside of the Americas) an act of war
    11)make it 100% clear that the US will not hesitate to use a nuclear first strike to uphold the new Monroe Doctrine
    12)continue to modernize and update our nuclear arsenal
    13)constitutional amendment setting the floor for NASA's budget at 2% of GDP (up from its current level of .5% of GDP); space should be where the US of the future expands



    “America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.... She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standards of freedom.” (John Quincy Adams, 1821.)

    (emphasis added is mine)

  19. #199
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realitytrembles View Post
    F "global hegemony" and our "international responsibilities".

    In the behind. With an iron stick.
    Isolationism doesn't work in a globalised world, Felicia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Isolationism doesn't work in a globalised world, Felicia.
    We can check out of that crap, if we are serious enough about it.

    If we did what I said, who would dare f with us?

    I'll take Pres Adams opinion over internationalist gospel, thank you very much.
    Last edited by Realitytrembles; 2018-02-15 at 07:19 PM.

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