Wait a second, when did we ever ask for leveling to be long? Just hard, not long!

[Keyblader]

For the longest time I've felt that the game needs some kind of hard mode for leveling that makes things tougher, but faster. A sort of glass canon mode with increased damage done and XP gained, but also drastically increased damage taken. There are a lot of technical hurdles that might stand in the way of something like this, but with the way scaling tech works I think it's very possible now.

I would love some kind of prestige system, even if it's just for a mount or something, I would love to go back and level through those zones on my main again.

[Nurvus]

He's not wrong though because in order for it to actually be a real challenge the damage of the mobs needs to go up as well as the hp which means because of the increased difficulty will lead to less chain pulls which leads to more overall time used in leveling.

I did mention increased XP gain to compensate.

But even without compensation, there are ways to make mobs more challenging while also allowing them to take less time to kill.
Example: You can double a mob's Health and DPS, but also make it take 3x more damage for 5 sec after being Interrupted/CC'd.
If you fight it half-afk as you did before the change, it takes twice as long to kill, and deals twice as much damage to you.
If you Interrupt/CC it, it may actually take less time to kill than before the change.

So you can make mobs more fun, more challenging, and it doesn't have to necessarily make the fights last longer.

That said, I do agree with making mobs tougher so that you can actually use your rotation on them, and so that DoT specs feel less useless. Tried playing a DoT spec in dungeons? Mobs and sometimes even Bosses would die before you manage to apply all your DoTs.
So why take 10 seconds to kill a mob with your DoTs as Shadow when you can kill them in 3 seconds as Discipline?

But to state that there is no way to make mobs more challenging without making LEVELING slower is bullshit.

Also your comparison using raiding is amazingly bad. There is a grand total of ZERO fights in this entire expansion that would take the same time to complete on mythic and normal using the same group while its current content. All mythic fights hit harder, have more hp and /or different mechanics which automatically make the fight take longer to complete. Even eonar on mythic is longer.

I was comparing the fights not from a numeric point of view, but mechanical.
Assume that both Guilds - one Normal, one Mythic - have the same DPS:BossHealth ratios.
The same mechanic that explodes after 5 seconds on Normal, may explode after 3 seconds on Mythic, thus being more challenging without increasing the length of the encounter.
You can have extra mechanics on Mythic that merely require more attention & precision, without actually messing your rotation, nor requiring you to swap targets, thus making the encounter more challenging without increasing its length.

[Lazuli]

The increased XP required to level is more than off-set by no longer requiring travel time that breaks your leveling flow as you try to move to a new zone to get more done.

Also remember that we have a number-squish coming up soon and that could again change things quite a bit and Blizz may be doing their changes in a two-tier model to account for that.

Are we going to pretend that anyone in the past I don't know how many years has done anything but sit in their main city hub and queue dungeons all day to level alts? I usually just tab out, watch videos or read forums waiting for the WoW icon to light up unless I'm playing tank/heal.

1 thing I disagree with on this scaling is having dungeons included, at least should be optional. It was the easiest way to grind for those that have already done this a zillion times since vanilla.

I am glad I've already gotten everything lvld this xpac cuz this is nothing like vanilla and classes are boring af and completely broken half ass somethings until 110 with full artifact.

[Doomchicken]

I did mention increased XP gain to compensate.

But even without compensation, there are ways to make mobs more challenging while also allowing them to take less time to kill.
Just double a mob's Health and dps, but also make it take 3x more damage for X sec after being Interrupted/CC'd.
If you fight it half-afk as you did before, it takes twice as long, and is twice as dangerous.
If you Interrupt/CC it, it actually takes less time to kill.

So you can make mobs more fun, more challenging, and it doesn't have to necessarily make the fights last longer.

That said, I do agree that making mobs tougher so that you can actually use your rotation, and so that DoT specs feel less useless, because why would you go Affliction and take more than 10 seconds to deal your DoT, if you can go Destruction and kill the mobs in 3 seconds with Direct Damage?

But to state that there is no way to make mobs more challenging without making LEVELING slower is bullshit.



I was comparing the fights not from a numeric point of view, but mechanical.
Assume that both Guilds - one Normal, one Mythic - have the same DPS:BossHealth ratios.
The same mechanic that explodes after 5 seconds on Normal, may explode after 3 seconds on Mythic, thus being more challenging without increasing the length of the encounter.
You can have extra mechanics on Mythic that merely require more attention & precision, without actually messing your rotation, nor requiring you to swap targets, thus making the encounter more challenging without increasing its length.

Name one fight in history where this happened. You can't and you know exactly why. The extra damage with the extra hp with the extra mechanics that requires extra coordination, dps and hps is what makes those things actually challenging. Making everything literally exactly the same but only needing to move just slightly sooner is lfr levels of bad fight design and at that point you might as well just make a loot pinata that says hit me on its forehead and abolish raiding of all difficulties.

[Nurvus]

The extra damage with the extra hp with the extra mechanics that requires extra coordination, dps and hps is what makes those things actually challenging.

Each of those individual things make the fight more challenging.
You can read what you ignored to figure out the rest.

[tristannarutofan]

To me what made leveling bad was like...getting to northrend and doing the first 20 quests on EVERY character.

Sidebar though. I think ppl wanting things to be "harder"forget how hard it is just learning how to playthe game. When i try another mmo its impossible to have fun if the interface is to extreme. Many games like destiny and fortnite are made for people who are experts at game mechanics. I remember when i heard about deadmines and how it was a group task and i thought id try to lvl a bit and try it by myself.

Anyways having lvl 13s that can two shot ppl is ridiculous (defias pillagers)

But like others said level is for learning. Thats the whole point of heirlooms and transfering gold those whove done it before go through faster.

And if there is a choice between making things better for new players or old players it should ALWAYS be New players because all old players are ones whod agree or should go F themselves.

Accommodating new, young players and making sure they have fun Always trumps veterans who want the entire game catered to them

- - - Updated - - -

A vocal minority did, and I didn't ask for it to be changed at all, but that's Blizzard for you. They make massive changes on a whim that ruins the game for the majority of their player base because some people won't shut up. I have had most of the heirlooms since they were first available and thanks to the incessant whining, they're more or less useless now.

See its this kinda pretentious asshat that should stop interacying with ppl . I wish theyd botherered to say what they are talking about but their selfishness and "this game exists to please me and only me" attitude OOZES out

[Doomchicken]

Each of those individual things make the fight more challenging.
You can read what you ignored to figure out the rest.

In other words you have no argument and you're just shitposting at this point. There's multiple reasons why they don't have a static kill time across all difficulties

1) Time to kill alone does not make a fight hard. Mythic blackhand was a roughly 6 min fight and tough as balls, imperator margok was 15 mins and tough as balls, the butcher is a 3 min intense fight and so on and so forth but you know what actually makes them tough? Literally everything else about the fight. The extra hp, the extra damage to the tanks, to the raid, the extra damage required because of new adds/mechanics/ and ALL of those increases the time needed to kill the damn boss. Look at the heroic/normal kill times for all of those fights and you'll notice a very obvious pattern, less hp, less tank damage, less add damage, less adds, less mechanics. It's almost like they're tied together or something.

2) Static fights are VERY unpopular. The first boss in hfc for example. Each of their own difficulties had a set time for how long they would take (also note, they were not shared across all difficulties) which means that no matter how geared you were it would take the same amount of time to clear the fight which makes it even more ridiculous when by the end of the tier apart from maybe archimonde you can literally kill every other boss faster than clear THAT fight.

3) It removes the point of even getting gear in the first place: to get more powerful.

Also, numerical and mechanical actually go hand in hand because they increase the damage of mechanics to also increase the difficulty of the fight. I'm beginning to wonder if you have raided at this point because this shit isn't exactly rocket science.

Edit: I've decided to add a TL;DR because it's clear you won't understand the point if I don't.
TL;DR: You LITERALLY cannot have a fight be harder AND the exact same length as it was before because difficulty increases time, as it always has in the entire history of WoW. Even on fights that are shorter in comparison to the rest of the raid tier.

[Deleted]

Why would any one in their right mind spend so much time leveling for the billionth time? We wanted leveling to be HARDER, not longer! This would allow people to level multiple toons in different regions so that it doesn't bore us to death and make people quit. Remember, what made it worth while in Vanilla was that Vanilla was the end game, we weren't thinking of the many more expansions to come...How many more levels do we need? why not stop at 120 and introduce other kinds of leveling?? This is just stupid.

Why would anyone spend time leveling so many alts? This is for me far more riddiculous than longer leveling. Seriously what are you all doing with all those useless alts? Anytime you playing alt you purtting your main behind so why not just quit playing so many alts? New leveling is specialy for new players so they wont quit game over boring leveling up and facerolling dungeons. Heirlooms cant and should not help you level up as it also affects new players. It is seriously boring join dngeons just to see bunch of heirloom players what zerd entire dungeon.

This change was made for new players. So stop leveling your 20th alt and maybe try spend that time on characters what you alredy have? This game isnt about you. And no sir you are not majority. So stop complain when 1 part of the game doesnt target your small audience for once.

[Deleted]

I feel like they basically just trashed what I found enjoyable really. I'm ambivalent about it but making mobs in to sponges doesn't make them harder it just makes the fight tedious, even on a 'nostalgic' place I'm not allowed to name the mobs died MUCH faster after level 30. I think in particular WoD scaling is just absolutely broken as well pandaria, rares have upwards of 5 million health. Which wouldn't be a problem - but its a different game these days - players aren't funneled together like they used to be.

So really, all that's changed is I can't kill some mobs now and its not as simple as looking for someone, no one cares unless the content is current. I remember when they nerfed mobs like Araj the Summoner after he stopped being relevant and that was back in TBC, so to allow this kind of thing to go live is just backwards. WoD and MoP desperately need some fine tuning.

As for dungeons? They have been tweaked strangely. I like that mobs actually do damage but I dislike spending 3 minutes downing a boss with easy and rather blatantly telegraphed abilities. Most of its not challenging they're just sponges - like GW2 - which is part of the reason I find it so jarring, its just holding you up because of the health values. There's no inherit lesson there. I feel more like a lumberjack than an adventurer. I might as well be hacking at trees in runescape.

P.S. Vanilla was not hard, it was time consuming and I often find people make the same argument for games like dark souls where the difficulty lies in the fact you can't just run in like an idiot, or you get punished for not being aware of your surroundings. Other than elite quests - I have personally soloed borelgore on a 57 warlock - or WPVP/Gankers slowing you down, it wasn't hard to level. Past level 20 I could literally dot 3-4 (though 4 is pushing it if casters are involved) mobs and have my voidwalker soak up all the damage or if I felt lazy, dot 'n wand things to death. I very rarely ran out of mana or had to eat + drink, not unless I did a huge pull or life tapped like an idiot.

[FelPlague]

It took significantly longer, mobs actually hurt and CC was needed even while leveling. Groups for elites were actually a thing, the experience itself was rewarding and a significant part of the game. The people that didn't play during that period make it pretty obvious with the constant snide and ignorant remarks.

you didnt need CC, it helped if you were unlucky, but it wasent needed.
and yes because finding a group is "hard" man all the skill you require to make a group, so rough...
elites well leveling that required groups were not hard, simply you needed a group to curbstomp it. so you got a tank maybe a heal, a few dps, or just a few dps to kite it.

[Nalam the Venom]

When you are soon to have 120 lvls, The best thing you can do is make all levels before that much much slower.

[crakerjack]

Leveling was hard enough for me as a holy priest when WoW first came out; I dread going back to that. That sucked. I agree, however, that leveling in different areas would be better and may help alleviate the boredom a bit.

Holy wasn't too bad, just spam holy fire on everything. Make sure you bought water cuz you'd go oom after killing a couple things.

[Deleted]

u are mad THE GAME isn't leveling is raiding and pvp but no leveling.... fuck off nerdy people that are 1% of wow that want long leveling.... NO new player come to play this game now! thank u!

[tankbug]

Why would any one in their right mind spend so much time leveling for the billionth time? We wanted leveling to be HARDER, not longer! This would allow people to level multiple toons in different regions so that it doesn't bore us to death and make people quit. Remember, what made it worth while in Vanilla was that Vanilla was the end game, we weren't thinking of the many more expansions to come...How many more levels do we need? why not stop at 120 and introduce other kinds of leveling?? This is just stupid.

I can't ever remember asking leveling to become hard. I would rather ask them to make it more story-driven, and perhaps even tweak the experience based on what class, race and role you're leveling as, so it would become an interesting experience instead of just a race to max level.

[-aiko-]

This has been amusing, people acting like it takes 10x more time to level now.

[Allybeboba]

If you haven't noticed, the vast majority of WoW fans seem to conflate the two regularly. The longer something takes, the harder it is. X fight is hard! No, it's just long. This rep grind is hard! No, it's just long. Getting X to drop is hard! No, it just takes a long time. Nothing in WoW is particularly hard. It just all takes a really long time.

Have to agree. Video gaming really isn’t that difficult, WoW especially. It just takes time, patience and practice.

Cheers

[Deleted]

This has been amusing, people acting like it takes 10x more time to level now.

Indeed, it is so hard and longer that there are already people over level 70 since yesterday

I mean 70 levels in 1 day omgad so much hard very wow

[Allybeboba]

There are plenty of difficult video games and I haven't seen anyone claim this is hard. It seems to be people like you all who try to push that when we're saying it's tedious/boring.

They just take practice, patience and time my friend. It is just a matter of learning them and their patterns. Even PvP has certain patterns.

Cheers

[Deleted]

Not that you haven't show us that you are stupid or a troll.

[Deleted]

For what? You still read the thread..so?