Opinion on guilds and M+

[Deleted]

People usually organize m+ groups so they can pretty much "trade" the carrys for alts. For an example, I log to my main when my friend log to his shitty just dinged alt and vice versa.

One problem with taking people from your raid core to m+ on their mains is that they may perform insanely bad. If our group has ran 200+ times some specific dungeon with same same players everyone knowing how tank pulls etc who stops and what without communicating those things, why should we make it harder by taking some dipshit who has done only m+ 15 once per week and is first time in +20 run? Of course we could carry them on our mains, but another problem is that we usually rotate mains and good geared alts on groups so we have 1-2 carry dps and 1-2 shit dps depending on the key level.

Then the m+ pushes, even if I were ready to carry some core raider nub thru high m+, that doesn't mean that tank, healer and another dps would be willing to do that. I personally love m+, but I play only with players who I know I can trust on. I don't care about few personal fails, but some random WW monk dying two times per trash pull is pretty annoying (damn melees, they have no brains).

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Snip - thanks

Let's say for the sake of argument that a guild mate is just about able to pull their weight in a +10. That is, five players just like them - similar gear and experience - would probably one-chest a +10 but just miss the timer on a +11 and probably not even finish a +15. When they ask in guild chat, are they like "Hey would anyone like to join me for my +10 DHT?" or are they "Will someone help me get a 15 this week?" Because one conveys one attitude (I'd like to have fun gaming with my guildies) and the other something else (Please give up your own game time to carry me). And who knows, I for one might answer "Nah let's do my 16 Arcway - I'll get you through it." But how it comes up does tend to color your reaction.

[Marrilaife]

I'm a "weekly chest" type of player not "high key pusher" by any means, I don't mind bringing guildies who are less skilled as long as they aren't too much of a trouble, but what I have problem with is for example: I made a +15 group for 2 alts of my friends, bring my good geared tank, ask for 2 more, oh, there is a social guy, sure, take him in - and then he starts complaining why did I invite this 940 alt to the group. That 940 alt ended up performing similarly to that 965 geared social. And I know who I'm not inviting next - you don't get to join someone's group and start making demands.

And this incident isn't the first time I get a guildie who complains about alts being invited to group. I even had this kind of hypocrite who was fine as long as mains were boosting his alts but started complaining the moment roles got reversed. Well guess whose alts we ain't boosting anymore.

I don't get people who claim "you must love every person you raid with" or even are member of the same guild. There are some people who are plain obnoxious and you just treat them with politeness like a co-worker you have to work with, but you really don't want to spend your leisure time with them.

[Saverem]

So I've been encountering a lot of guilds that will only run M+ with their little cliques (Namely Officers and the GM's) and these same people will switch to alts and do more M+ together while leaving out their raiders to go pug. Am I wrong in thinking that this sort of attitude is a bit disadvantageous to the raid as a whole by not helping their core raiders out with runs, rather than their alts? I've been in guilds that have actually put core raiders before alts so it's not like it's not a hard concept to grasp but it seems like to me some guilds just do the opposite and it's triggering.

Should these higher ups in raid guilds be trying to create a sense of teamwork or are they right to just stick to their clique and do M+ with their mains and then alts? Oh and by the way, these cliques never ask in guild chat to try and get core raiders or even potential raiders into groups to get gear.

This is actually VERY common. I'd say half of the raiding force in my guild right now are people who left their old guilds because they felt left out of the cliques. Even in my guild there are 2 different cliques composed of RL friends. But we try to make them intermingle with other members.

But we still do have limitations, for instance, we really only have 1 good tank that does M+. The other MT doesn't really care for it and only runs his 1 +15 a week for the gear and that's it. The other tanks are just off spec players that aren't really all that great at tanking TBH. Same with heals. We only have 1 or 2 good healers that actually enjoy doing M+.

[Better]

As the only tank in my guild that's online during the week for M+ thoughts like OP's is exactly why I refuse to organize M+ runs myself. Anybody can ask me to do a run, and for the most part I'll be down with it, but I really hate this kind of drama. Most of the time it's literally because you don't seem to express an interest, or never say anything, and now I'm apparently part of a clique that's trying to keep you out of easy +15 keys.

OP, try to just say something, or ask while they seem to be getting ready for a M+, or you see them bringing an alt in. You'll probably find out they weren't trying to keep you out, but rather just didn't think to ask in /g.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I don't get people who claim "you must love every person you raid with" or even are member of the same guild. There are some people who are plain obnoxious and you just treat them with politeness like a co-worker you have to work with, but you really don't want to spend your leisure time with them.

My pet peeve is the ones who don't give their best effort. I'd rather help a guild mate who grey parses than one who doesn't use runes and potions unless someone's hawking them. If they cbf to use all available buffs, what else are they slacking on? And does anyone have time to remind them about this stuff during M+? Someone like that, I might include if we're just knocking out someone's +7, but no way I'm inviting them to help push a 17.

[Deleted]

Basically what it boils down to is that guilds are either RP, casual or raid focused. I don't know about the RP ones. Casual guilds hardly ever have groups in them willing/capable of pushing keys on a regular basis. This leaves raid guilds, who exist to coordinate up from 20 people on a regular basis to do the same thing over and over again together - raids. It is natural those people end up tired of each other after spending several hours each second/third night together focused, sometimes emotional (both positively and negatively) and sometimes in drama. Forcing the ones who still want to spend more time with each other to endure people they might be less fond of will always have more of a negative long-term impact than not.

The current status with an increased m+ presence across WoW leaves an open space to be filled in guild-focus - m+. I'd imagine such guilds would consist of players who don't have time to push raids on a regular basis, but can devote shorter moments to competitive gaming in WoW. Pre-m+ that'd have only been PvP and CMs. Now m+ has seemingly been embraced by both Blizz and the community. I expect guilds to form around m+ sooner than later. Maybe not even guilds, but a different, new way of forming communities around m+ in a cross-realm mode too.

Maybe those who complain about a lack of such, should start one?

I was looking for a guild with m+ before, then I found my current one (myffic raiderz stuff I don't participate in) and never looked back.

[kamuimac]

So I've been encountering a lot of guilds that will only run M+ with their little cliques (Namely Officers and the GM's) and these same people will switch to alts and do more M+ together while leaving out their raiders to go pug. Am I wrong in thinking that this sort of attitude is a bit disadvantageous to the raid as a whole by not helping their core raiders out with runs, rather than their alts? I've been in guilds that have actually put core raiders before alts so it's not like it's not a hard concept to grasp but it seems like to me some guilds just do the opposite and it's triggering.

Should these higher ups in raid guilds be trying to create a sense of teamwork or are they right to just stick to their clique and do M+ with their mains and then alts? Oh and by the way, these cliques never ask in guild chat to try and get core raiders or even potential raiders into groups to get gear.

what you describe is neither new nor uncommon in most of guilds - and its natural human behaviour - people are naturaly drawn to them alike and ignore others

cliques in guilds have been here from day 1 of wow only in past they had a bit different form - example before mythic + was brought to game they had form of those 10-15 raiders who were alwways taken on all bosses and those 10 poor suckers who were swapped in and out - which eventually lead to them being pissed and ditching guilds because nobody wants to sat out ever.

its a reason why hc/mythic raiding guilds are seen as toxic by majority of wow non-raiding playerbase.

but again - this is perfeckly natural for humans - we are selfish greedy creatures - same was happeing in school where you had those small cliques who were ignoring rest of class , same is in work where you go out for a smoke with those 2-3 people you like and ignore rest .
its natural for humans.

- - - Updated - - -

The issue is actually not the clique but the people who are sitting in silence saying nothing.

I got my own group M+ group and some time ago some guildmates complained to the gm that we did not invite them but upon further discussion it came out those people never asked to join.

So maybe just ask them to join

or maybe which is more common :

player X : "anyone for N key " ?
/g : .... dead silence ....

5 minutes later

player Y (part of "clique") : "anyone for key M" ?
player Z : "tank herre"
player S : "take me take me "

5 other players " take us take us "

thats how it usually works .

and its natural becasue player Y is usually better player and everyone looks playing with stronger ones

[Deleted]

My guild makes sure that all members get their weekly chest.

Sometimes I run M+ with them, sometimes I PUG. Not an issue.