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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requimortem View Post
    For the supposed "new" players, of which there are virtually none.
    And therein lies your critical error. Assuming that it's only about new players. It's not. It's about any player who enjoys the process of levelling a new character. Apart from those I know personally, this thread is full of them. They make up a substantial portion of the playerbase (anecdotal based on my observations)
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2018-01-18 at 12:04 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And certainly from what I have observed, your opinion of why these changes are bad is actually fundamentally different from most others who are taking issue. You may be on their side when it comes to whether or not you like the changes, but that doesn't mean you're like-minded. You're kinda unique that way.
    (I am run-off-the-mill MOBA-material casual. For real. WoW deteriorated for me into a set of weekly lootboxes / achievement boxes a long time ago, and I think I am actually with the majority in that.)

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And therein lies your critical error. Assuming that it's only about new players. It's not. It's about any player who enjoys the process of levelling a new character. Apart from those I know personally, this thread is full of them.
    I will admit, I have a fond personal joy with this new system... I hated the "Hit 15 and spam dungeons" setup. I mean, yeah... I could have quested and it was my choice to do so, but it was soooooooooo dull and it felt punishing. Not to mention out leveling the zones not even half way though really killed it. A lot of the zones in the game have great stories to them, and a lot of the zones I have not seen in years. I can't think of the last time I have ever quested in Netherstorm or in Storm Peaks. Heck, even Nagrand in BC I have not seen in a long time.

    To a degree, even with it being only the last expansion, I can't remember the last time I have fully finished any of the zones in WoD. You out level the content so fast you skip so much.

    It also feels great, as I have avidly mentioned, to have a full rotation instead of one shotting enemies haha XD

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxuvox View Post
    So, you lack the self control required to ban yourself from the site? Are you forced to log in and participate in the discussions you participate in? If you don't want to be here, then walk away. It really is that simple.
    He has been here for 5 years and has over 1,200 posts. Its not a crazy amount but it shows he enjoys what he does, his history shows that is trolling the forums.

    The way I see it, and assume the situation to be, is that he wins no matter what happens.

    Either they ban him, at which he sees it as getting his way. He "wants" to be banned and is calling them out to do that, them doing just that gives him all the power ego wise and also marks him a sort of martyr in his own mind. At the end of the day, how much does it really stop him from coming back with a new account? Who knows how many accounts he even has as of right now? At absolute worst all he has to do is get a VPN to get pass whatever ban they throw him, unless MMO-C knows something I don't and I will admit my knowledge on IP spoofing and IP bans are limited. Then he has the satisfaction of proving that he gets his way, proves his point, and in the end they can't stop him.

    The alternative is that they don't give in to what he is asking in which he "proves" that the Moderation staff here have no teeth and won't do anything, thus planting the seed for more users to act like him without fear of anything serious happening. Thus more chaos, trolling, ect because it empowers more people with the idea that they can do whatever they please and act however they like without having to worry about anything serious happening.

    Its a catch-22 of sorts where he has set himself up in his mind set to be the winner no matter what course is taken, assuming from how he posts and the boldness of his post literally calling the moderators out to ban him.

    Honestly, I hope an example is made of him as mean spirited as that is to say. Topics will be better off not dealing with some of those posts.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    (I am run-off-the-mill MOBA-material casual. For real)
    I have absolutely no idea what this is meant to mean.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I have absolutely no idea what this is meant to mean.
    I'm not quite sure if he is in support of the change or against it either...
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I have absolutely no idea what this is meant to mean.
    I meant to say that on the important points I am actually probably with the majority. This doesn't matter much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byucknah The Red View Post
    I'm not quite sure if he is in support of the change or against it either...
    Against. /10ch

  7. #107
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    Having to spend any time leveling in an MMORPG is absolutely unacceptable.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    Is there a third group, that actually likes leveling, would not press the "ding to 100!" button, but also wants it to be faceroll?
    Yes, that does perfectly describe me. I like oneshotting mobs, I liked that I could solo level appropriate dungeons, I have fully enchanted heirlooms with different enchants since every enchant behaves differently per level, including all heirloom type with helmet and shoulder enchants. I have 31 level 110 chars and except my heirloom holder my lowest char of the 50 you can have on the account is 22, to try the new leveling I had to delete another.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I meant to say that on the important points I am actually probably with the majority. This doesn't matter much.
    Yes, but your reasons tend to differ. It's what makes debating with you...interesting (and at times very frustrating because you have a very strange notion of what is "normal").

    In case you've not noticed, I don't care so much about what people believe as why they believe it.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Shot89 View Post
    First, i said it's tedious after you have done it 15+ times. Second, not me or you or anyoneelse around here can tell you the exact %. It canbe 21, 34, 12, 7 whatever, if you want to discuss on random number, we have nothing to say each other.

    Personally, i don't mind it takes longer. But that's my PERSONAL opinion. In fact, i welcome this change only thanks to the zone scaling. When new allied races will be out, i will finally enjoy questing around without my quest log become grey after 5 quest and 1 dungeon.

    But again, as every change in WoW (and real world) history, you have people happy with it and people not.
    I don't want to discuss the number, hence I have not given an estimate since no one can give an exact one right now. I haven't done it 15+ times, I have done it 50+ times, I have over 30 level 110 chars and my lowest from the remaining is 22, and I had several additional accounts over the lifetime of wow.

    And I completely agree that zone scaling would be a fantastic thing, and the changes to streamline the leveling progress are great. Where I don't agree is that it is a good thing to make leveling longer. If it is 20%, 32%, 50% or 80% is irrelevant, it just wasn't necessary and in my PERSONAL opinion is a bad thing.

  11. #111
    Should have leveled when op double exp potions were a thing. Now you get nothing.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmyan View Post
    Having to spend any time leveling in an MMORPG is absolutely unacceptable.
    I am assuming this is sarcasm... :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kakera View Post
    Should have leveled when op double exp potions were a thing. Now you get nothing.
    Steam rolling through shit and one shotting every mob and rushing gogoogogogog isn't fun.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yes, but your reasons tend to differ. It's what makes debating with you...interesting (and at times very frustrating because you have a very strange notion of what is "normal").

    In case you've not noticed, I don't care so much about what people believe as why they believe it.
    Unrelated to the debate, just as banter - you won't deny I have been right in perspective a huge number of times, will you?

    Ie, remember we had that talk about the WoW token when it was just appearing and I had a pretty strong picture of what it will do to the game and why and how, and you were disagreeing in places? Well, look around and observe that what I was saying back then is now the reality. Raiding is completely dominated by boosting, at all levels apart from LFR, etc.

    There are actually many such things and while I am not saying I was never wrong, when I look back, I have a very hard time remembering where specifically I was noticeably wrong.

    Returning to this set of changes for a second - I think the HP / XP changes are bad, but I don't think there will be a big outrage forcing Blizzard to undo them. Because leveling will remain largely an insignificant and uninteresting portion of WoW, not a lot of people would care. I think they will either scale down the HP increases in instances though, or, failing that, increase the XP bonuses there.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byucknah The Red View Post
    No. Dungeons now feel like dungeons...

    Dude... I fucking saw the mechanics of Dark Shaman Koranthal in RFC for the first time in my LIFE!!! I didn't even know he HAD mechanics! The dungeons are interesting and fun now, they do not need a damage buff, get use to old content actually being content once again.
    This. I like it. I don't think i have never leveled properly except from my vanilla main (had no alts until MoP). I started a new alt yesterday and feels fun and something to do to kill my time. A lot more fun than zerging dungeons 24/7 until you reach 110. Being able to actually quest and see the story of 1-60 zones is a great addition.

    Overall my opinion is that is a great and much needed change for the game. If you want to lvl an alt just for the 110 content there is always a boost.

  15. #115
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    making lvling hard isn't what brings new players and people to try out things, its different ways to lvl and fun activites while lvling that would bring new players. You will not even see the amount of players doing old zones then you see people doing the pre-legion invasions for example. This change is for the weird section of players in this game who want to spend more time doing the same stuff they did like 20-30 times in the past....*sigh* this is another moment they should've just stolen from another mmo like usual and just copied FF14 where the scaling works fine.


    best example of this is in FF14 you get scaled down the lvl of the dungeon or fight that you qued for, so if you que for a lvl 30 dungeon at lvl 70 it downscales you to lvl 30 and gives you the abilities you would have around that lvl, solving the problem of people wanting to experience mechanics while also keeping the old content stupid easy outside of the que system. Aka non of this stupid buffing health nerfing health stat squishes etc etc etc ruining old content for people who wish to solo things all for the weird small minority of people who again want to lvl even slower through content they have done over and over before.
    Last edited by Dugna; 2018-01-18 at 01:10 PM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Unrelated to the debate, just as banter - you won't deny I have been right in perspective a huge number of times, will you?
    That's not really how I see it. Remember I am more concerned with the why than the what. For example you might have argued that tokens would cause gold inflation. I would have disagreed. Today you'll note that gold inflation has happened, so you'll conclude that you were correct regardless of whether it had anything whatsoever to do with your reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Ie, remember we had that talk about the WoW token when it was just appearing and I had a pretty strong picture of what it will do to the game and why and how, and you were disagreeing in places? Well, look around and observe that what I was saying back then is now the reality. Raiding is completely dominated by boosting, at all levels apart from LFR, etc.
    Lol, I often think about how that debate and how time proved rda to be so, so wrong, and how it turned out exactly as I had predicted :P

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    There are actually many such things and while I am not saying I was never wrong, when I look back, I have a very hard time remembering where specifically I was noticeably wrong.
    You have generally been very cynical about how the game will be changed by various features, changes etc. Let's just put it this way: I wouldn't want to play in a WoW that landed up the way you predicted it would, on numerous occasions, based on how certain terrible changes would affect the game. Yet I am still playing the game and enjoying it

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Returning to this set of changes for a second - I think the HP / XP changes are bad, but I don't think there will be a big outrage forcing Blizzard to undo them. Because leveling will remain largely an insignificant and uninteresting portion of WoW, not a lot of people would care. I think they will either scale down the HP increases in instances though, or, failing that, increase the XP bonuses there.
    I don't doubt that there will some adjustments here and there. The important thing is to understand the intention and the effect. Blizzard believes that by making levelling content more engaging, it will make the content more enjoyable. I agree with them to a point that it will do so for most players who enjoy levelling content. But there is a significant number of players who don't like levelling content at all, and just want to get it over and done with asap. Blizzard need to find a good solution for those players because the current level boost cost is too high to be a practical solution.

    Contrary to popular belief on this forum, level boosting is not designed as a revenue stream. It's designed as a "grudge" concession to allow people who really, really, reallllly don't want to bother with levelling to skip the levelling process (because deep down I think the devs believe that everyone loves spending time levelling new characters, we just need the experience to be more engaging). If they actually wanted to make level boosts into a money spinner, they'd lower the price in order to achieve higher sales. As things stand I don't think that level boosts are a big seller and Blizzard is fine with that. What they need to figure out is that it's ok if most of the players are no longer interested in levelling, and put steps in place to make it fairly easy to level boost, while keeping the manual levelling process tailored to those who actually want to do it.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    I am assuming this is sarcasm... :P

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    Steam rolling through shit and one shotting every mob and rushing gogoogogogog isn't fun.
    That's your opinion. Luckily for real gamers that enjoy pushing boundaries regardless of its systems your opinion is trash and meaningless. Enjoy spending 5 times or more time in meaningless content while the people who aren't retarded sell level 20 items on the AH for ridiculous prices and make bank off you.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    making lvling hard isn't what brings new players and people to try out things, its different ways to lvl and fun activites while lvling that would bring new players. You will not even see the amount of players doing old zones then you see people doing the pre-legion invasions for example. This change is for the weird section of players in this game who want to spend more time doing the same stuff they did like 20-30 times in the past....*sigh* this is another moment they should've just stolen from another mmo like usual and just copied FF14 where the scaling works fine.


    best example of this is in FF14 you get scaled down the lvl of the dungeon or fight that you qued for, so if you que for a lvl 30 dungeon at lvl 70 it downscales you to lvl 30 and gives you the abilities you would have around that lvl, solving the problem of people wanting to experience mechanics while also keeping the old content stupid easy outside of the que system. Aka non of this stupid buffing health nerfing health stat squishes etc etc etc ruining old content for people who wish to solo things all for the weird small minority of people who again want to lvl even slower through content they have done over and over before.
    You use FF14 as an example when the thing is... FF14 you can't 1-2 shot enemies while leveling. You have full rotations, enemies have health, it takes effort to play and you get practice for your rotation.

    Now, I have not made it to Draenor yet since this change, I am still at Outland/Northrend, and have been hearing the scaling may be TOO extreme, but with that said your argument makes no sense. FF14 has never needed to fix their leveling because through the years it has stayed consistent so far where as in the past with wow they have constantly buffed players, nerfed enemies, and boosted experience to the point that you would outlevel the zones immediately. The experience was not a leveling experience, it was just a grind. Dungeons were even worse with the fact that characters had grown so powerful and enemies had been nerfed so much that a boss took 10-15 seconds to kill, trash even less and in massive numbers. Tanking required no effort and healing was non-existent until higher level dungeons!

    Also, I personally disagree when you talk about FF's dungeon scaling methods. Losing your abilities sucks, especially as a tank in FF14. When you get use to having a toolkit at your disposal then go to a dungeon roulette and suddenly half your abilities are gone it feels so bad and you have to adapt and manually override your muscle memory/strategies because what worked at your REAL level no longer works. It also results in a lot of the lower level dungeons being over simplified an experience for a higher level player. WoW's system on the other hand you still get the chance to practice, utilize, and learn your new moves as you progress instead of having your toys/toolbox taken away randomly depending on the dungeon.

    Honestly, WoW's system feels superior though not perfect. Tuning might need to be done but I honestly can not comprehend how FF14's system is superior feeling.

    And this change was long overdue for WoW... Blizzard is EXTREMELY bad at keeping their game consistent and properly power scaling. I mean look at the game, we already need to have ANOTHER stat squish because we have gone up nearly 300+ ilvl (700-970/1000) just in this expansion alone. Its so bad that this time around they are even going to squish iLvL because Blizzard can not show restraint, and to a degree having so many difficulties of raids and dungeons does not help. FF14 does not have these problems because their design philosophy is so much different. I'm not bashing them, their leveling experience has remained consistent and still feels like a leveling experience. WoW's didn't and this was the fix and honestly a good one in my view as well as possible framework moving forward.

    I really want to see how everything feels after the item/stat squish hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kakera View Post
    That's your opinion. Luckily for real gamers that enjoy pushing boundaries regardless of its systems your opinion is trash and meaningless. Enjoy spending 5 times or more time in meaningless content while the people who aren't retarded sell level 20 items on the AH for ridiculous prices and make bank off you.
    Speaking of subjective opinions...

    Would FPS games be better if when a new game came out the old games got a patch that killed all the enemies for you and let you just run to the end of the game effortlessly?

    Would RPGs be better, lets take Dragon Quest for example, if when a new game came out the old games were patched so you had the best Armor, Weapons, Spells, and were maxed level since its not the newest game any more?

    Would it be better if when a new Mario Game came out you got a patch that covered all the obstacles, the collectables were pre-collected, and there were no enemies and just a straight run to the end?

    I find it funny when looking at the community a lot when discussing growth of character, they want their character to at max level feel stronger then while leveling up. They want to be able to one shot enemies from previous zones, they want their new awesome gear to have value and yet the same community also wants to one shot enemies at low levels and have them just as trivial with no sign of character growth.

    When I see posts like this, posts that don't contribute or counter argue anything, posts that attack other members of the board instead of tackling a response it really makes me wonder what you are really here for.

    Gamers who enjoy "pushing boundaries" are the people who want to go the extra mile and thrive in character growth the most! The min/maxers and theory/simcrafters who squeeze every bit of damage out of a character. Those hard core players are probably hardly phased by all this. If they do make an alt they get the best enchants for their spec, the most appropriate Heirlooms, they find ways to boost their power to make thing simpler because its not simple, quick, or easy but they find a way to make it simpler, quicker, and easier. They are the guys getting the iLvL 800 BoE epics at lvl 101 just to do insane DPS against the scaling tech.

    THAT is the group of gamers who push boundaries because there ARE boundaries. They don't WANT an easier game, they want a game they can challenge, a game that boundaries can be pushed in. Boundary pushers are the people who see a quest that is designed to be tackled with 5 people and find a way to solo it. They are the people who find ways to solo current content raid bosses and how to break the system in their favor. They are not the LFR heroes, the people who expect everything handed to them, the people who want welfare epics, they are your Mythic raiders like Method and not the average Joe on here.

    There is no boundary for them to push when everything already dies in one hit and takes no effort at all.

    I am not a boundary pusher, you are not a boundary pusher, stop trolling and make an actual real argument instead of trying to attack those discussing the topic. Actually contribute to the topic at hand.

    You imply that you are a real gamer and that those who disagree have trash opinions? "Real Gamers" play a game to enjoy it, that is not limited to those "boundary pushers".

    If you wan't to defend an easier and pointless experience that really was nothing more than "Hit 15 and chain run dungeons" then you brought up the wrong group. No one buys a game and goes "This would be great and all, but look at all this content I have to do to get to the LAST level... sure would be swell if this game only had the last level, that's all that matters."

    Going even further, just because its old content does not mean its bad content. Retro Games like Super Metroid, the Mega Man Franchise, Mario, ect THRIVE today because they are good games. People love to go back and see the old games even when newer ones come out. Gamers who contribute far more than you and I ever will, people like the speed runners at GDQ who are REAL boundary pushers. The content is old, and I get not everyone likes old. There is a select few who want to hit max level ASAP then sit in dalaran with nothing to do. This patch however has revived and made old content fun again in so many ways.

    Explain and break down exactly how this has negatively impacted those challenge seeking "boundary pushers". Because as of right now, your attitude and responses are very similar to a user who was posting in this topic and now all of his posts are gone from this topic. This is a place of discussion, not harassment. If you simply don't like it then that's fine, but explain WHY you don't like it. Is it too much effort? Do you just want to be max level asap and if so why, whats the rush? Do you just hate WoW and want everyone to be as spiteful and hateful as you?

    Seriously, keep that negativity out of here and have a legitimate discussion because as it stands I am not seeing it from you. Just a bunch of sass, salt, and imposing hate onto those here who want to discuss and debate.
    Last edited by Byucknah The Red; 2018-01-18 at 02:10 PM.
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  19. #119
    WoW's leveling gameplay had completely degenerated these last few expansions, I am happy to see it fixed, though with a couple of oddities that needs to be fixed. I still remember running through dungeons on some of my slower characters, pretty much running through the whole dungeon after a Brewmaster Monk pulling everything up ahead and killing everything before I got there. Not exactly exciting or interesting gameplay.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    I don't want to discuss the number, hence I have not given an estimate since no one can give an exact one right now. I haven't done it 15+ times, I have done it 50+ times, I have over 30 level 110 chars and my lowest from the remaining is 22, and I had several additional accounts over the lifetime of wow.

    And I completely agree that zone scaling would be a fantastic thing, and the changes to streamline the leveling progress are great. Where I don't agree is that it is a good thing to make leveling longer. If it is 20%, 32%, 50% or 80% is irrelevant, it just wasn't necessary and in my PERSONAL opinion is a bad thing.
    Sadly, personal opinion aside, leveling in "old" games, with a lot of level, like WoW is always controversial. You can find some passionate new player that like the atmosphere and lore a lot, and you can find new players that can't wait to hit max level to enjoy the game with their friends. Both have good reason to find boring or not leveling.

    Personally i think that leveling is important to know lore and in some extent (very little) how to play your class, but i agree that sometimes you just want to rush to max level at the maximum speed.

    Let's hope they will make some changes while improving the scaling system.

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