Battle for Azeroth Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Steampunkette]

The Plague just kills, and before she had the Valkyr, I think most Forsaken were just split off scourge somehow?

Exactly.

The Undead Campaign of WC3 shows the control of the Nathrezim and Arthas breaking. Sylvanas takes command not through mind-control, but leadership, and as the last of the Nathrezim died, the Scourge was unleashed. Arthas contained them, but left the Forsaken free because they were too far/many/whatever.

The Forsaken in Vanilla through Wrath were all that there were left in the world. Every one of them was irreplaceable, and their deaths represented the waning of their whole race. When the Valkyr were able to create new ones, it was the Forsaken's way of "Reproducing". But Sylvanas wasn't cool with the whole Mind-Control thing, so everyone got a choice.

The first encounter you have as a Forsaken in Cataclysm is a Valkyr telling you that you have 3 choices.

1) Become a Forsaken and Serve Sylvanas.
2) Become a Forsaken and Leave and enjoy your new unlife.
3) Go back to being dead.

[Blayze]

Actually, when you create a new Undead, the Valkyr that raises you asks you if you want to serve Sylvanas, or go back to being dead. You even see an Undead who dies because he wants to continue being dead.

That's only after the Bullshit Bomb wears off.

Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

[Deleted]

I am quite looking forward to the book coming out, and giving us more insight into the Forsaken that don't agree with Sylvanas. The Desolate Council thing is very interesting.

Same. The Forsaken have been a monolithical lore entity since WC3, finally we are getting more about how they really think.

[Makorus]

Same. The Forsaken have been a monolithical lore entity since WC3, finally we are getting more about how they really think.

Yeah, I feel like Forsaken themselves are some of the worst missed opportunities so far. Their lore is basically "shady zombies", and the only development they received was new architecture in Cata.

[Deleted]

That's only after the Bullshit Bomb wears off.

And yet Lilian Voss and the undead Kingdom of Stromgarde contradicts it. And the undead Kingdom of Stromgarde is more recent than that AskCDev.

[Steampunkette]

Same. The Forsaken have been a monolithical lore entity since WC3, finally we are getting more about how they really think.

More or less? I mean, back in Vanilla and BC they were -fairly- monolithic, but Wrath showed us a splinter group serving Varimathras and Cata showed us that some, like Voss, choose to leave.

[Drekmar]

And yet Lilian Voss and the undead Kingdom of Stromgarde contradicts it. And the undead Kingdom of Stromgarde is more recent than that AskCDev.

Not to forget Godfrey, he killed Sylvanas so obviusly he had a free will.

[Deleted]

More or less? I mean, back in Vanilla and BC they were -fairly- monolithic, but Wrath showed us a splinter group serving Varimathras and Cata showed us that some, like Voss, choose to leave.

But it was the monolithical WC3 Forsaken vs. the monolithical WC3 Forsaken Legion follower. At least with the Desolate Council we can learn how the society works and debates daily.

Not to forget Godfrey, he killed Sylvanas so obviusly he had a free will.

And yes, Godfrey. Godfrey is the main example of not being a slave.

[Shadochi]

I'm not talking slaves as in mind controlled, but as in they must and do listen to her every command even if they hate her/hated her in life. Which explains why a rebellion is forming.

Were IRL slaves mind controlled by the slave owners? No, and there were plenty rebellions and slaves killing their masters.

[Deleted]

I'm not talking slaves as in mind controlled, but as in they must and do listen to her every command even if they hate her/hated her in life. Which explains why a rebellion is forming.

Were IRL slaves mind controlled by the slave owners? No, and there were plenty rebellions and slaves killing their masters.

Nothing indicates that the Desolate Council is a rebellion, just a new Forsaken political leadership group.

[Shadochi]

Nothing indicates that the Desolate Council is a rebellion, just a new Forsaken political leadership group.

Why would a political leadership group form in a town without politics or elections... maybe to undermine the current tyrannical ruler? Which is basically them rebelling against her authority.

[TriHard]

10 days until Allied races

[Deleted]

Why would a political leadership group form in a town without politics or elections... maybe to undermine the current tyrannical ruler? Which is basically them rebelling against her authority.

Because Sylvanas is the Warchief, ruling in Orgrimmar. The new Council is to govern the daily issues of the Forsaken and Undercity. It's delegation.

[Steampunkette]

Because Sylvanas is the Warchief, ruling in Orgrimmar. The new Council is to govern the daily issues of the Forsaken and Undercity. It's delegation.

^Yeah, that.

In the novel where we learn about them, Nathanos explicitly states it's a civilian government that got together to handle day to day management of the Undercity in Sylvanas's absence, Sailor Twifty!

[Shampro]

Why would a political leadership group form in a town without politics or elections... maybe to undermine the current tyrannical ruler? Which is basically them rebelling against her authority.

Did you read the chapter? The Forsaken feel like they need someone in charge in the Undercity, as Orgrimmar is taking all of Sylvanas' time. They're like puppies that are lost without their master to an amusing degree, and it's in part because of all their personalities within the Undercity. Nothing indicates that they hate her or that it's coup', Nathanos said as much, he would have delt with them if that was the case.

[MrDragon]

Why would a political leadership group form in a town without politics or elections... maybe to undermine the current tyrannical ruler? Which is basically them rebelling against her authority.

This is based on the assumption there are specific laws in place against this sort of behavior. Maybe the council was originally formed either by Sylvannas or at least with her blessing for example. Maybe Undercity is undergoing a political transformation into a democratic parliamentary monarchy/constitutional monarchy and when actually given some form of political power to wield these individuals are beginning to question Sylvannas' directions for the Forsaken.
This is just me spitballing and I think it's unlikely, though I also don't think Sylvannas would have let this council form in the first place if it's primary purpose is to undermine her. She would have had it dealt with with extreme prejudice.

Fact is: we have very little information to go on for now so I would just not jump to conclusions.

I do love the idea of the Forsaken spearheading/inventing Azeroth's first major democratic nation. It would fit their history of rebelling against the control of Ner'Zuhl and now their current monarch being a generally rather shady character.
"Enough with the dictatorial* rule, lets govern ourselves!"
(*The historical sense of the word which is not necessarily negative.)

[AstralNader]

I know it's off topic from the current Forsaken discussion. But I was still trying to see what possibilities that Void rune behind the Embassy would be.

1: Alleria planting it to spy on her Sister or Manipulate the Horde leaders.
2: Goblins somehow have a connection to the void as they are very similar to the Ethereals in how they want to side with who makes them the most money/Goes with their plans
3: I have always been convinced that the "Loa" that whispered to Vol'jin were not Loa but in fact Old God Minions/N'zoth whispering him into picking a Leader that would easily lead the world to war after the Legion.

[tristannarutofan]

Why would a political leadership group form in a town without politics or elections... maybe to undermine the current tyrannical ruler? Which is basically them rebelling against her authority.

same reason people who said that vol'jin did nothing have no idea what they are talking about

Cities have to be run. They have to have people handling guards, crime, business ventures.

Sylvannas was on the broken shore for months she wasnt managing her city.

Like...wtf do you think a ruler does? stab ppl?

[Zulkhan]

Damn, that Nobbel video pretty much explains my PoV. You could say the Horde are killing innocent spies that are there to reconnoitre if the Horde is up to no good..

I don't see how someone can be "innocent" by fucking spying on me.

I like Nobbel's videos but he's kind of an Alliance fanboy himself. I don't care, mind you, but his word should not be regarded as gospel for sure.

Why would a political leadership group form in a town without politics or elections... maybe to undermine the current tyrannical ruler? Which is basically them rebelling against her authority.

It's Sylvanas herself saying the formation of the Desolate Council was "not unreasonable". So no, it's not rebellion and is not perceived as such. They just disagree over a few matters with their leader.

[MadamSerenity]

10 days until Allied races

Potentially 10 days. We still have no confirmation of that.