Legion is over... What to kill, what to keep?

[Flurryfang]

Except... you have to do "core game mechanics" to unlock certain mission types. You have to be "out in the world, playing the actual game" to unlock more champions. Complaining about the mission table after its content became trivial is... well, dumb, in my opinion. That'd be like complaining about Legion's normal dungeons after I'm already fully decked in titanforged mythic Antorus gear.

Mission tables are good when they get you out, but the reward for going out is not getting more content, but instead getting upgrades for your automated income system. I would love if every mission at the mission table led to something you could do in outside world, encouraging diverse play and maybe even creating cool prologues for some stories, but in the end, when you have completed the very finite quest content from the mission table, you just have a gold mine left, that really ask nothing off you.

I agree, that it would be dumb to complain about dungeons when you have full mythic gear, because dungeons are no longer relevant for you and not worth your time, but that is not the case for the mission table. It gives you alot of free things and those "rewards"/gains from the mission table, stays current for aslong as you play really.

As i tried to tell the dear IAmtheDevil, the gains from the system are so big for such a small amount of work, that it feels very mandatory to do, if you want to have a healthy functioning character, even if it does not really have a positive effect on your gaming experience. The system can be used for good, but it is used for money-grapping and cheating people into not engaging with the actual core gameplay after a while.

[Velerios]

Keep: Artefact-System: I like an progression of my character, even at max level

Kill: World Quests in it's current form.
Yes, this might be quite an unpopular view. But i REALLY HATE WORLD QUESTS, at least in it's current form. I miss the quest-hubs we had before, it brought some life in the game. And the dailys yes, to interact with an npc rather than getting everything per Smartphone-message; at least give our characters a smartphone ingame; that would actually make some sense. With dailys you could do the quests, come back and get quite a bunch of rewards at once. It definitively felt better, because when you finished all of them, your back was quite heavier and also you might earned enough reputation for more rewards. (the issue that reputation-rewards are always subpar is another thing)

What i would like more if there would still be dailys, but in addition world quests for bonus-rewards. And that you don't get the reward immeadetly, instead you need to gather it after you finish it. I don't say you need to run to an npc, but instead it should be send per mail. Then when you get to a mailbox, you can gather your rewards from it.

[Deleted]

Kill: AP / artifact system. The infinite grind. I hate it. Tbh, it's more a barrier than it is a reward.
Keep: Garrisons (yeah, i went there. It's not Legion, but i love it. Now that there are world quests/mythic+, etc. people wouldn't complain about being in their garrison all the time). Just make it less profitable. But, having a home in WoW is the best, and i want it to come back.

[Maruka]

I would ditch the undercover type bs that suramar had. It was a nightmare to quest in, especially on a class like shaman.

[Deleted]

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So you want WoD back?

Sigh... WoD was a time in the past, it can't come back. I don't want the garrison to be a central piece of the story, actually, it doesn't need to be related to the story at all. I want a home/base of operations with a modest mine, garden, storage, pet menagerie, daily quests, small perks, etc.

And btw, i did love WoD aside from the "lack" of content. Best class design, a blast to play, loved the garrison, loved the setting and the areas aside from tanaan jungle. I did enjoy it alot more than grind central Legion, that's for sure. I had more fun with WoD.

[Shakou]

Keep: PVP Brawls.
Kill: PVP Talents/Instanced PVP Template

[Bropowers]

I'm very happy legendaries are going. So bad.

[shadowmatrix]

Keep:
Titanforging - The chance of getting upgrades while farming raids gives raid teams a little more reason to keep going till the next raid. Cap it at the LFR ilevel of the next raid tier to keep it from getting out of hand and make it rarer.

Random Legendaries - Make them support only, have no equip limit, and make them a 1% boss drops with no bad luck protection. People want to buy their legendaries but the last time players said that type of thing we got token vendors and we saw how players behaved with those. #WelfareEpics

Modify:
Profession Quests - Keep them but don't require current dungeons to complete them. Older dungeons that can be done solo are fine.

[Sederath]

Keep: M+.

Kill: Do I get to pick two? Legion legendary system and Titanforging. If I had to pick just one of these, Titanforging.

[deviltoist]

Kill:World Quests,Order hall-class hall-mission table shit,legendary system,AP system
KILL IT WITH FIRE:Titanforging,Warforging,Free stuff from order hall

[Wild]

Keep: M+, cos its just the best thing that ever happened to WoW
Kill: garrison...ehrm i mean mission table, kill that shit pleeeeeeeaaaase

[Deleted]

Keep Mythic plus
Keep haste, crit and mastery and bake some of the utility passives from the new legendaries(or completely new ones) into a few of the items we wear. Randomly rolled.

Remove titanforge (maybe make it able to proc up til +3 or 5 ilvls at most).
Remove the new legendary system
Remove AP grind

And most important of all, make warrior tanks great again and remove the worst ability in history: Ignore Pain

[RoKPaNda]

It's actually Mythic raiders who have complained the most about Titanforging. The argument being that Mythic raids aren't worth the extra effort when you could get the same gear titanforging off heroic raids which you clear in an hour. There are dozens of youtube videos on the subject from Mythic raiders.

I didn't say otherwise? It is EXCLUSIVELY a Mythic raider problem however, and not worth breaking it for everyone else just to fix it for us. We're an extreme minority. And the real issue has NEVER been Titanforging, it's been the constant flow of high level gear through M+. You can get a few nice pieces over the course of the entire tier from Heroic unless you're doing something exploitative like Split-Farming that Blizzard doesn't know how to fix. Not from Normal, not from LFR. The big offender is the weekly cache, and even then I'm fine with them not changing anything about that. They don't need to cater to us right now, we're not going anywhere, we're stuck here because no other MMO has compelling PvE. If you're raiding Mythic specifically for loot you're not worth considering either because you're just a burnout waiting to happen.

And I can't take Youtube heroes like Asmongold seriously when they whine about TF because they don't understand 1) what the problem even IS, and 2) that nobody is getting decent amounts of sick titanforge gear from Normal/LFR, and the only people getting decent amounts of sick TF gear from Heroic are the Top X guilds that do split runs.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Why would you want to get rid of grinding but keep the system that was invented for grinding?

Mythic + makes 5 man dungeons a different endgame for some people. Those who didn’t have the time or ”hunger“ to get into a raiding guild and wasn’t a fan of PvP had scaling Mythic + as their challenge.
Mythic + also made 5 mans relevant past week 6 in the start of the expansion.
Mythic + also offers another PvE competition, which is awesome.

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I didn't say otherwise? It is EXCLUSIVELY a Mythic raider problem however, and not worth breaking it for everyone else just to fix it for us. We're an extreme minority. And the real issue has NEVER been Titanforging, it's been the constant flow of high level gear through M+. You can get a few nice pieces over the course of the entire tier from Heroic unless you're doing something exploitative like Split-Farming that Blizzard doesn't know how to fix. Not from Normal, not from LFR. The big offender is the weekly cache, and even then I'm fine with them not changing anything about that. They don't need to cater to us right now, we're not going anywhere, we're stuck here because no other MMO has compelling PvE. If you're raiding Mythic specifically for loot you're not worth considering either because you're just a burnout waiting to happen.

And I can't take Youtube heroes like Asmongold seriously when they whine about TF because they don't understand 1) what the problem even IS, and 2) that nobody is getting decent amounts of sick titanforge gear from Normal/LFR, and the only people getting decent amounts of sick TF gear from Heroic are the Top X guilds that do split runs.

My problem with exsessive ilvl rolling upgrades (titanforging) is that it creates this nightmare of figuring out if an item is better for you or not. Reforging was removed because it was too "mathy" and confused people. How is WF/TF any better when you have to sim or look at complicated spreadsheets to figure out if an item is better or not? It also creates this false reason to do easier content than you’re able to do because you have a 5% chance to maybe get a better item...

[RoKPaNda]

Mythic + makes 5 man dungeons a different endgame for some people. Those who didn’t have the time or ”hunger“ to get into a raiding guild and wasn’t a fan of PvP had scaling Mythic + as their challenge.
Mythic + also made 5 mans relevant past week 6 in the start of the expansion.
Mythic + also offers another PvE competition, which is awesome.

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My problem with exsessive ilvl rolling upgrades (titanforging) is that it creates this nightmare of figuring out if an item is better for you or not. Reforging was removed because it was too "mathy" and confused people. How is WF/TF any better when you have to sim or look at complicated spreadsheets to figure out if an item is better or not? It also creates this false reason to do easier content than you’re able to do because you have a 5% chance to maybe get a better item...

That's a compulsion problem, not something Blizzard can or should fix. Personally I'd rather have that 5% chance and decide to run content based on it versus having zero reason to do anything other than login and raid twice a week.

For most situations higher ilevel = better. The exceptions to this are when it comes to tier bonuses which are being removed, legendaries which are being removed, broken shit like Arcanocrystal, and that's about it. If you're raiding any content that matters you're simming anyway. One of the major problems of reforging was that it became a completely automated experience for the most part. You punch in your stat weights and an addon reforges all your shit for you at the vendor.

[HuxNeva]

(1) Keep: Titanforging, the 'raid or die' and 'there's nothing to do' slayer
(2) Keep: Mythic plus. Best thing ever. Maybe some new affixes to spice it up. Needs a decent match history though so ad dons like Raider.io can be made even better.
(3) Keep: Collections. Needs improvements, with easier per zone collections things built in etc.
(4) Keep: Legendaries, or some sort of gear with special talent like abilities, but drastically change how you acquire them.
(5) Keep: Class specific quest chains. Spices it up
(6) Keep: World Quests. Far better than dreaded 'dailies'. Then again, anything would be better than that.
(7) Keep: AP/AK like system. Gradual power ramping (together with TF to mix it up a little) is much better than periodic 'nerfs'
(8) Keep: 2/4 pieces. The new system feels less inspiring.

(9) Remove: Class Halls. Uninspiring random bunching together of people that will never interact. Give us 'Guild Halls' instead
(10) Remove: Remove 'mission tables', you don't need a mobile leach on your players
(11) Remove: BMAH. Make things available in-game, perhaps with an extreme low drop-rate, if they are acquirable through BMAH
(12) Remove: 'World-PvP', aka snotty nosed griefer facilitator. You have the right idea for BfA, but don't force people to submit to those losers through 'incentives'.

[ydraw]

I didn't say otherwise?

Yeah, you actually specifically said:

Doesn't impact us Mythic raiders.

And the real issue has NEVER been Titanforging, it's been the constant flow of high level gear through M+

Except M+ gear isn't high level....unless it titanforges. M+ gear is equivalent to heroic raid gear, not mythic raid gear. Unless it titanforges. So it is actually titanforging that's the issue here - no mythic raiders would be wearing any M+ gear if its max level was 940.

The whole M+ gear thing is pretty overblown anyway. You won't see Mythic raiders wearing hardly any M+ gear. It was mostly an issue at the beginning of the expansion when stats on jewellery were so imbalanced, leading to players grinding M+ for their BIS stat rings/necks etc. Now it's mostly only Relics.

The best gear - tier armour and trinkets - still comes from raids. Except titanforged arcanocrystals lol.

I actually like the titanforging system because it keeps old content somewhat relevant. It also makes it more worthwhile to farm raids after they've been cleared. But I do understand the POV of Mythic Raiders who have complained about the relative effort-reward ratio in Mythic raiding as a result of titanforging.

[HuxNeva]

Mythic + makes 5 man dungeons a different endgame for some people. Those who didn’t have the time or ”hunger“ to get into a raiding guild and wasn’t a fan of PvP had scaling Mythic + as their challenge.
Mythic + also made 5 mans relevant past week 6 in the start of the expansion.
Mythic + also offers another PvE competition, which is awesome.

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My problem with exsessive ilvl rolling upgrades (titanforging) is that it creates this nightmare of figuring out if an item is better for you or not. Reforging was removed because it was too "mathy" and confused people. How is WF/TF any better when you have to sim or look at complicated spreadsheets to figure out if an item is better or not? It also creates this false reason to do easier content than you’re able to do because you have a 5% chance to maybe get a better item...

Well, your 'nightmare' is what brings depth to a game for others.
As for the "5%", you wish. If 15's were easy for you from the start, you probably cleared Anthorus HC week 1 and are somewhere around 960-965 ilvl by now. Good luck getting an upgrade on average out of 20 >15 M+ runs. I'd say a HC Anthorus is about the difficulty of a M+16 on most weeks, and much easier to get carried through.

[Kathranis]

As far as we know BfA isn't going to have mission tables, and they already confirmed the Legion Legendary system is out.

I think Titanforging can stay, it just needs some modifications:

1. Titanforging should have a set number of levels in the UI, similar to the old Upgrade system. IE "Titanforged (1/4)."
2. You should be able to earn items that you can use to manually Titanforge an item you already own. Obliterating unwanted Titanforged gear would be one way to earn these items.
3. The max ilvl for gear should have minimal overlap between tiers and difficulty levels.
4. Gear from old tiers should either lose the ability to Titanforge, or should automatically be Titanforged to max, but still be inferior to non-Titanforged gear from the new tier.

The core ideas behind Titanforging are positive. Always having the potential to get an upgrade for a slot regardless of the content you're doing, the chance to occasionally get a single really powerful item, etc. The issue is that those who feel compelled to min-max have a sort of endless grind ahead of them. If you put a visible cap on each piece of gear and give players a way to manually reach that, I think you mitigate a lot of the problems.


Also, Artifact Power will still be in the game, but it's going to be changed pretty dramatically in that it's something you'll just passively gain when completing content, like EXP or Rep.

[HuxNeva]

So funny to see people go 'keep M+/WQ, kill WF/TF'. You can't have one without the other.