The Alliance is the evil faction.

[Cucultlan]

I never said that Graymane should get a free pass. But the thing about Graymane is that he failed everything aside from freeing Odin's Valajar factory. Garrosh on the other hand bombed the Warcraft equivalent of France then had civilians who were simply trying to run for their lives captured, tortured, and killed. At least those Graymane attacked could fight back.

the problem is the momentum fo the second part on garrosh cease, the torture and kill; that its only showed until SoO and doesnt give you glimms if it happends as soon as he captures them (at least not that I remember). but garrosh was fought for it anyways (too much crimes, pandas doing the "right" thing that i didnt like and prefered that either Varian or Thrall killed Garrosh on point btu W/e). and yes all Garrosh acts were war instigators or direct acts of wars, we live with it.

but seems that even if Graymane is doing some similar things to Garrosh and not be labed the same even he is not the Top Authority of his factionand its stated and agreeded that the acts in question are "acts of war", that is what i dont understand from the alliance fans point of view (not acomplain as a whole but an observation)

even if i dislike Graymane, he is giving something different to the alliance to be more realistic and interesting and not wanting for him the same result as garrosh if he keeps following his foot setps it what to ME doesnt make sense

[lockybalboa]

Are people always so insecure?

That's a rather meek one, I was just stating facts.

[Joodoc]

Free Samples
Collect 8 Mysterious Ore samples.

Description
The crown has ordered SI:7 to infiltrate the goblin mining operation and collect any information we can find on this mysterious new substance. My agents have infiltrated the camp, but the clock is ticking and we need to get our hands on some extracted ore samples fast. In other words, I need someone who can take the direct approach. Someone who can handle a fight against overwhelming odds and come out alive. Take the ore samples to Khargus Stonemantle for analysis when you return.



murder and stole, in the goblin culture the stole is at the same level as murder.

Honestly I think stole is worse in goblin culture...

[Psykho]

Hey hey! That's 12 "Horde Bias" to only 5 "Alliance Bias". Nice!

Shaw and his Spies were already in Silithus before the players knew diddly squat in the Cinematic, because the Cinematic happens some un-expressed amount of time before the Players are shown it and Shaw's collection of the Azerite from the Goblin Mining Operation occurred some un-expressed amount of time before -that-. (It should take months to get from Silithus to Stormwind, but it's probably going to be handwaved as him traveling at the speed of plot).

And we know the spies have been reacting to being caught with violence, so it at the very -least- stands to reason that since the Orc Overseer already knows there are spies, there, when the Horde Player Arrives, they've already been fighting them off to some degree. Which means dead spies and/or dead goblins before the Alliance or the Horde even arrives on the scene.

And nah. We don't know if the Alliance would harvest it ASAP. But we know that the Alliance -will- be mining it. And so will everyone else in BFA. And judging by the Alliance Cinematic it's pretty clear that the Azerite -itself- has some kind of mystical effect on people. It wasn't -quite- so obvious with Sylvanas, but listen to the music and look at Anduin's expression and it's pretty clear he's got that One Ring (of Azerite) fever.

Sylvanas wants to turn Stormwind to dust, you say? I'll ask for a Citation. She does mention to Blightcaller (In the upcoming novel's prologue) that there's a battle she and he have "Longed For" and then follows it up with a single word: Stormwind. But Narrative Phrasing and Rhetorical Flare means her actual intent could be everything from "Burn the whole Alliance to the ground", as you're suggesting, to "Gather enough Azerite to enforce a peace treaty" or even "Go get Greymane and drag his ass out of Stormwind for his attempted assassination in the Broken Isles"

So far in the real world only one military force has ever, in the history of the world, used a true Weapon of Mass Destruction to kill people. A full on Nuclear Bomb. And we did it twice. Even during the Arms Race and the Cold War and Vietnam, Desert Storm, and however many other battles and skirmishes and wars, no one else has used one, but it hasn't been Japan stopping people from dropping nukes. There's also the question of whether it IS a fissile material. Whether it is a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" or just something really powerful. Everyone leaps to Uranium, but it could just as easily be "Immortalitium" which would be something Sylvanas has been -repeatedly- shown to want.

Either Blizzard is discarding Sylvanas's central trait of wanting to extend her own life and the lives of her people indefinitely to avoid the Shadowlands, and she just wants to kill everyone everywhere 'cause they're putting the villain hat on her this expansion (Which is not impossible, surely) or you and others are jumping to a mischaracterization based on your own personal biases and perspectives.

I tend to believe the latter.

The look in Anduins eyes as he touched the Azerite was filled with, "this is some powerful mojo"

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Hey hey! That's 12 "Horde Bias" to only 5 "Alliance Bias". Nice!

Shaw and his Spies were already in Silithus before the players knew diddly squat in the Cinematic, because the Cinematic happens some un-expressed amount of time before the Players are shown it and Shaw's collection of the Azerite from the Goblin Mining Operation occurred some un-expressed amount of time before -that-. (It should take months to get from Silithus to Stormwind, but it's probably going to be handwaved as him traveling at the speed of plot).

And we know the spies have been reacting to being caught with violence, so it at the very -least- stands to reason that since the Orc Overseer already knows there are spies, there, when the Horde Player Arrives, they've already been fighting them off to some degree. Which means dead spies and/or dead goblins before the Alliance or the Horde even arrives on the scene.

And nah. We don't know if the Alliance would harvest it ASAP. But we know that the Alliance -will- be mining it. And so will everyone else in BFA. And judging by the Alliance Cinematic it's pretty clear that the Azerite -itself- has some kind of mystical effect on people. It wasn't -quite- so obvious with Sylvanas, but listen to the music and look at Anduin's expression and it's pretty clear he's got that One Ring (of Azerite) fever.

Sylvanas wants to turn Stormwind to dust, you say? I'll ask for a Citation. She does mention to Blightcaller (In the upcoming novel's prologue) that there's a battle she and he have "Longed For" and then follows it up with a single word: Stormwind. But Narrative Phrasing and Rhetorical Flare means her actual intent could be everything from "Burn the whole Alliance to the ground", as you're suggesting, to "Gather enough Azerite to enforce a peace treaty" or even "Go get Greymane and drag his ass out of Stormwind for his attempted assassination in the Broken Isles"

So far in the real world only one military force has ever, in the history of the world, used a true Weapon of Mass Destruction to kill people. A full on Nuclear Bomb. And we did it twice. Even during the Arms Race and the Cold War and Vietnam, Desert Storm, and however many other battles and skirmishes and wars, no one else has used one, but it hasn't been Japan stopping people from dropping nukes. There's also the question of whether it IS a fissile material. Whether it is a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" or just something really powerful. Everyone leaps to Uranium, but it could just as easily be "Immortalitium" which would be something Sylvanas has been -repeatedly- shown to want.

Either Blizzard is discarding Sylvanas's central trait of wanting to extend her own life and the lives of her people indefinitely to avoid the Shadowlands, and she just wants to kill everyone everywhere 'cause they're putting the villain hat on her this expansion (Which is not impossible, surely) or you and others are jumping to a mischaracterization based on your own personal biases and perspectives.

I tend to believe the latter.

Anduin could literally feel the power in the Azerite, doesn't mean he wants it all, probably just enough to keep one step ahead of Sylvavas

To be honest, to me it seems like Sylvanas only dislikes Greymane because he keeps interfering with her attempts at immortality, even though his only intent is to end her, even after smashing that Soul-cage thing Greymane limped out, since he knew he wouldn't be able to take Sylvanas one-on-one in his condition, though he does have knowledge of her obsession, since he rubbed it in just before leaving

[Azelas]

Most of the civilians that escaped Theramore were captured by the Horde, most are seen hung up in Orgrimmar in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid.

10characters

[Psykho]

Honestly I think stole is worse in goblin culture...

Naw, stealing and murdering is the goblin way of climbing the corporate ladder, that's how all trade-princes are named, they murder their predecessor and steal all their stuff

[Steampunkette]

So we don't know if the Horde started to kill spies first or if the spies to kill the Goblins first.
Alright, Sylvanas said there is a battle she longed for and it could mean that she meant "Gather enough Azerite to enforce a peace treaty". Are you seriously beliving that? I mean, you seriously believe that there is the possibility that she wants to force mere "peace treaty" by saying "there is a battle she longed for". Aaaaalright

Sylvanas has also -repeatedly- shown that she is not the selfless and peacefull person you try to represent her as. She has shown far more often what she is willing to do to reach her goals (torture, kill, rise people from the dead, and so on).

I don't think anyone is trying to jump to a mischaracterization of sylvanas, she did a pretty good job showing what her true nature is.
Also implying that Anduins expression had any kind of power hungry look in it is laughable at best if not even sad how far biased you are to twist stuff like that. He looks obviously worried/engaged.

Not just a battle.

One she and Blightcaller have both LONGED for. Something they both want, and have wanted.

So far as we've seen, there's never been a time where she wants to destroy the Alliance, or even Stormwind. She had to be -ordered- to attack Hillsbrad and Gilneas on threat of death (implicit threat, since Garrosh had already killed Cairne). Greymane, however, she's had beef with since Cataclysm. Wanting to go after -that- fight? Sure. But Destroy Stormwind? No.

And I'm not trying to say she's selfless and peaceful. Never have. Only that she's defensive and wants to be left alone in her little corner to cut herself and emo around a sewer. She doesn't want attention and she doesn't want people coming after her. It's the reason she opposed the Manabomb (Because the Alliance could reach and destroy Lordaeron). To the contrary I'm arguing that she's incredibly selfish, but not mindlessly violent. She's not the kind of character to wipe out all of Stormwind if she doesn't -have- to, based on what we've seen of her.

So I could see her getting a stockpile of nukes and playing the US in foreign relations. But it's far more likely that what she wants is Greymane (Which is something I've said since the book's prologue came out). But both of those things are more likely than her wanting to destroy Stormwind out of basically nowhere. Which is what you initially stated.

Anduin looks worried/engaged? Ehhhh... Believe what you like. Between his expression's beginning and where it wound up going with the audio cue, it's pretty clear we're supposed to see something sinister. Same as Sylvanas, but it's less obvious -there- because her audio cues are already pretty dark and sinister.

For the record, I'll be maining a Void Elf Warlock this expansion. Each expansion I swap sides (Though I always keep alts on the other for story-purposes) so that I can get the most lore exposure and avoid being trapped in the mindset of one faction or the other.

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The look in Anduins eyes as he touched the Azerite was filled with, "this is some powerful mojo"

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Anduin could literally feel the power in the Azerite, doesn't mean he wants it all, probably just enough to keep one step ahead of Sylvavas

To be honest, to me it seems like Sylvanas only dislikes Greymane because he keeps interfering with her attempts at immortality, even though his only intent is to end her, even after smashing that Soul-cage thing Greymane limped out, since he knew he wouldn't be able to take Sylvanas one-on-one in his condition, though he does have knowledge of her obsession, since he rubbed it in just before leaving

Oh, absolutely that's why she's angry with him. That's why she'd want to kill him (Or, more likely, torture him or torture/kill his daughter while he watches, maybe make Tess undead since she's not a Worgen? That would fuck his shit up -hard-).

He wants to destroy the Forsaken. She wants to destroy -him-.

Much more likely she's after him and he's -in- Stormwind, than her wanting to destroy Stormwind itself.

[Psykho]

Not just a battle.

One she and Blightcaller have both LONGED for. Something they both want, and have wanted.

So far as we've seen, there's never been a time where she wants to destroy the Alliance, or even Stormwind. She had to be -ordered- to attack Hillsbrad and Gilneas on threat of death (implicit threat, since Garrosh had already killed Cairne). Greymane, however, she's had beef with since Cataclysm. Wanting to go after -that- fight? Sure. But Destroy Stormwind? No.

And I'm not trying to say she's selfless and peaceful. Never have. Only that she's defensive and wants to be left alone in her little corner to cut herself and emo around a sewer. She doesn't want attention and she doesn't want people coming after her. It's the reason she opposed the Manabomb (Because the Alliance could reach and destroy Lordaeron). To the contrary I'm arguing that she's incredibly selfish, but not mindlessly violent. She's not the kind of character to wipe out all of Stormwind if she doesn't -have- to, based on what we've seen of her.

So I could see her getting a stockpile of nukes and playing the US in foreign relations. But it's far more likely that what she wants is Greymane (Which is something I've said since the book's prologue came out). But both of those things are more likely than her wanting to destroy Stormwind out of basically nowhere. Which is what you initially stated.

Anduin looks worried/engaged? Ehhhh... Believe what you like. Between his expression's beginning and where it wound up going with the audio cue, it's pretty clear we're supposed to see something sinister. Same as Sylvanas, but it's less obvious -there- because her audio cues are already pretty dark and sinister.

For the record, I'll be maining a Void Elf Warlock this expansion. Each expansion I swap sides (Though I always keep alts on the other for story-purposes) so that I can get the most lore exposure and avoid being trapped in the mindset of one faction or the other.

I'm pretty sure to Sylvanas, Greymane is just a major thorn in her side, all she wants is immortality and to raise more forsaken, in fact I'm surprised some enterprising Worgen hasn't sicken Lillian Voss on Sylvanas' Val'kyr, them basically being used for necromancy, I mean no forsaken guard nor dark ranger would suspect a shambling corpse women to be the one killing the 1 and only surce Sylvanas has for new forsaken, in fact I'm surprised neither SI;7 or the knights of the Silver Hand, have a sub-faction dedicated solely to eliminating Sylvanas' Val'kyr

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Not just a battle.

One she and Blightcaller have both LONGED for. Something they both want, and have wanted.

So far as we've seen, there's never been a time where she wants to destroy the Alliance, or even Stormwind. She had to be -ordered- to attack Hillsbrad and Gilneas on threat of death (implicit threat, since Garrosh had already killed Cairne). Greymane, however, she's had beef with since Cataclysm. Wanting to go after -that- fight? Sure. But Destroy Stormwind? No.

And I'm not trying to say she's selfless and peaceful. Never have. Only that she's defensive and wants to be left alone in her little corner to cut herself and emo around a sewer. She doesn't want attention and she doesn't want people coming after her. It's the reason she opposed the Manabomb (Because the Alliance could reach and destroy Lordaeron). To the contrary I'm arguing that she's incredibly selfish, but not mindlessly violent. She's not the kind of character to wipe out all of Stormwind if she doesn't -have- to, based on what we've seen of her.

So I could see her getting a stockpile of nukes and playing the US in foreign relations. But it's far more likely that what she wants is Greymane (Which is something I've said since the book's prologue came out). But both of those things are more likely than her wanting to destroy Stormwind out of basically nowhere. Which is what you initially stated.

Anduin looks worried/engaged? Ehhhh... Believe what you like. Between his expression's beginning and where it wound up going with the audio cue, it's pretty clear we're supposed to see something sinister. Same as Sylvanas, but it's less obvious -there- because her audio cues are already pretty dark and sinister.

For the record, I'll be maining a Void Elf Warlock this expansion. Each expansion I swap sides (Though I always keep alts on the other for story-purposes) so that I can get the most lore exposure and avoid being trapped in the mindset of one faction or the other.

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Oh, absolutely that's why she's angry with him. That's why she'd want to kill him (Or, more likely, torture him or torture/kill his daughter while he watches, maybe make Tess undead since she's not a Worgen? That would fuck his shit up -hard-).

He wants to destroy the Forsaken. She wants to destroy -him-.

Much more likely she's after him and he's -in- Stormwind, than her wanting to destroy Stormwind itself.

Would Sylvanas really want to risk one of the sole people who have taken a single one of her shadow arrows in lore, going absolute apeshit, and killing her, He's a Worgen, something I feel would be nigh unstoppable with out a large cannon if they get angry enough

P.S. most of the things hit by Sylvanas' arrow die instantly

[Steampunkette]

I'm pretty sure to Sylvanas, Greymane is just a major thorn in her side, all she wants is immortality and to raise more forsaken, in fact I'm surprised some enterprising Worgen hasn't sicken Lillian Voss on Sylvanas' Val'kyr, them basically being used for necromancy, I mean no forsaken guard nor dark ranger would suspect a shambling corpse women to be the one killing the 1 and only surce Sylvanas has for new forsaken, in fact I'm surprised neither SI;7 or the knights of the Silver Hand, have a sub-faction dedicated solely to eliminating Sylvanas' Val'kyr

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Would Sylvanas really want to risk one of the sole people who have taken a single one of her shadow arrows in lore, going absolute apeshit, and killing her, He's a Worgen, something I feel would be nigh unstoppable with out a large cannon if they get angry enough

P.S. most of the things hit by Sylvanas' arrow die instantly

She does want Immortality for herself and for her people. She sees the darkness beyond as unthinkable. As something to avoid. It's why she was ready to kill and raise Vereesa against her will: She felt like she'd be protecting her, in some twisted way. Anything else is absolutely a secondary goal at best, and probably just viewed as an indulgence.

Still. She's also the kind of person who flings Koltira in a cage and tortures him for years on end for "Betraying" her by working with an Alliance DK to fight a mutual foe... So... Y'know. Large Thorn might get Plucked Hard.

And no. She wouldn't want him doing that. But if he were somehow contained or wounded or whatever I could see her doing it as a final grand "Fuck you!" before killing him? One black arrow in either shoulder, then kill his daughter and raise her, then a third one into his forehead...? It's something she might do.

[Deleted]

It is almost as if both factions are portrayed as evil on the other faction in order to push the war narrative, and the binary good/evil spectrum is too narrow minded to have an actual discussion about anything?

Naah..

[Daevelian]

It is almost as if both factions are portrayed as evil on the other faction in order to push the war narrative, and the binary good/evil spectrum is too narrow minded to have an actual discussion about anything?

Naah..

Welcome to MMO-champ, where the Sylvanas fanboys make the undertale fandom look like a group of saints.

[Psykho]

She does want Immortality for herself and for her people. She sees the darkness beyond as unthinkable. As something to avoid. It's why she was ready to kill and raise Vereesa against her will: She felt like she'd be protecting her, in some twisted way. Anything else is absolutely a secondary goal at best, and probably just viewed as an indulgence.

Still. She's also the kind of person who flings Koltira in a cage and tortures him for years on end for "Betraying" her by working with an Alliance DK to fight a mutual foe... So... Y'know. Large Thorn might get Plucked Hard.

And no. She wouldn't want him doing that. But if he were somehow contained or wounded or whatever I could see her doing it as a final grand "Fuck you!" before killing him? One black arrow in either shoulder, then kill his daughter and raise her, then a third one into his forehead...? It's something she might do.

But the Worgen curse pretty much runs on rage, seeing his daughter, and last surviving child and heir, not only killed but defiled and denied the Warcraft equivalent of heaven, that would probably send him into levels of rage that would move so fast you couldn't hit him, and would shrug off any wound out of shear wrath, and break even the toughest Forsaken cage, I like to call this theoretical state of worgen mind as the Wrath of Goldrinn

Edit; also would it be smart to do that to the king of at least 1000 or so wrathful wolf men who are already want her head on a stake, and her soul in hell

edit again; also I personally already want to impale Sylvanas upon my axe(yes I main a worgen, also my first ever character, so I had a skewed view of sylvanas from the get go)

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Welcome to MMO-champ, where the Sylvanas fanboys make the undertale fandom look like a group of saints.

and the Greymane fanboys make the Scottish look like a bunch of gentlemen

[Steampunkette]

But the Worgen curse pretty much runs on rage, seeing his daughter, and last surviving child and heir, not only killed but defiled and denied the Warcraft equivalent of heaven, that would probably send him into levels of rage that would move so fast you couldn't hit him, and would shrug off any wound out of shear wrath, and break even the toughest Forsaken cage, I like to call this theoretical state of worgen mind as the Wrath of Goldrinn

Edit; also would it be smart to do that to the king of at least 1000 or so wrathful wolf men who are already want her head on a stake, and her soul in hell

edit again; also I personally already want to impale Sylvanas upon my axe(yes I main a worgen, also my first ever character, so I had a skewed view of sylvanas from the get go)

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and the Greymane fanboys make the Scottish look like a bunch of gentlemen

The whole "Powered by Anger" thing is really more fan-writing, I think, than actual canon? I could be wrong, though.

That said, at least in Greymane's case it's -probably- true. Especially with his plot-armor.

[ManiaCCC]

edit again; also I personally already want to impale Sylvanas upon my axe(yes I main a worgen, also my first ever character, so I had a skewed view of sylvanas from the get go)

Maybe this may interest you. It's same story from her perspective. At least beginning of the story. It does make sense. She was also driven by anger and hatred.

Not saying one reason is better than other. Just saying that writers did quite a good job to portrait both perspectives believably for both Alliance and Horde players.

[Psykho]

Maybe this may interest you. It's same story from her perspective. At least beginning of the story. It does make sense. She was also driven by anger and hatred.

Not saying one reason is better than other. Just saying that writers did quite a good job to portrait both perspectives believably for both Alliance and Horde players.

What Sylvanas says at the end is pretty hilarious considering what's gonna go down their in BfA

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The whole "Powered by Anger" thing is really more fan-writing, I think, than actual canon? I could be wrong, though.

That said, at least in Greymane's case it's -probably- true. Especially with his plot-armor.

There's also the fact that Tess Greymane is a member of the Uncrowned and as such would most likely either evade capture, or find someway to escape, and sabotage what ever Sylvanas plans

Edit: and as I said the powered by rage, was theoretical

[Skyduke]

Annnddd... Here's the daily bait thread from the same OP. Are the moderators EVER going to step in?

[united]

Annnddd... Here's the daily bait thread from the same OP. Are the moderators EVER going to step in?

please show me what rules i've broken.

thanks in advance

[Cucultlan]

Lots of them were. They were tortured and murdered in Orgrimmar as well, even the women. Apparently all the children were taken away, and we never hear anything more about it so presumably slaughtered as well.

as i said on an earlier post, the problem is WHEN. they were capture on the battle of theramore?, sure, but the torture and murder only appears and its mentioned on SoO and when the Darkspear Revolition kick in (stablished True Horde vs Revelion). So the war crime of torture and murder pass to the true horde even if people of theramore were capture on the battle of theramore (our Horde time) cause you cannot point something that at the time didnt happend yet.

[Whitedragon]

the war is started with just a bunch of horde goblins peacefully minding their own business, with anduin and his chewbacca mentor tasking alliance players to kill goblins.

the horde is the more peaceful faction. we all already knew this tho.

ya peacefully mining a super powerful substance, I mean the horde has never misused something like that before....

[Polarthief]

the war is started with just a bunch of horde goblins peacefully minding their own business, with anduin and his chewbacca mentor tasking alliance players to kill goblins.

the horde is the more peaceful faction. we all already knew this tho.

Because leaving a warmongering psychopath (Garrosh) as the leader of your faction is definitely peaceful amirite.

Do I need to bring up Wrathgate? "More peaceful" my ass. Both sides have their shit, and Horde's definitely been the one to pull off way more shady shit. Not saying Alliance doesn't, it's just been Horde waaaaaay more times than not.